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You may want to look closely at the face of the bolt, and the "notch" in the extractor. It looks like there may be a burr on one or the other surfaces. I don't see any obvious overpressure signs, so that is where I would start looking.
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You may want to look closely at the face of the bolt, and the "notch" in the extractor. It looks like there may be a burr on one or the other surfaces. I don't see any obvious overpressure signs, so that is where I would start looking. View Quote While there may be a bur on the face of the bolt, upon closer look I do think it's over pressure. There is also a mark on the opposite side of the cases from the ejector. This is Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM. I haven't read of any reports about issues with this ammo though. |
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Could you give us any information as to what brand and configuration of rifle? It looks like there is a slight mark from the ejector. I would check the headspace to make sure it is a 5.56 chamber.
CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Could you give us any information as to what brand and configuration of rifle? It looks like there is a slight mark from the ejector. I would check the headspace to make sure it is a 5.56 chamber. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 View Quote Brand new Noveske Gen III Recon, stainless Noveske barrel, 5.56 chamber. |
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Either bur on the bolt face at the extractor channel, or the extractor bottom of rim relief channel has a bur instead.
Post photo bolt face without the extractor, then a good photo of the bottom of the extractor rim relief channel, and I will circle the burs that need to be removed to solve the problem quickly, or you can let the burs self remove/polish off through live fire instead. |
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Either bur on the bolt face at the extractor channel, or the extractor bottom of rim relief channel has a bur instead. Post photo bolt face without the extractor, then a good photo of the bottom of the extractor rim relief channel, and I will circle the burs that need to be removed to solve the problem quickly, or you can let the burs self remove/polish off through live fire instead. View Quote I can do that, not a problem. Later today. I did also send those photos to Black Hills and they said it is a sign of over pressure. They are replacing all my ammo on their dime and will be testing this ammo once they receive it back. They said: "By looking at your pictures the primers do not appear to be flattened but you are showing some brass flow into the extractor and ejector openings." BUT... there could also very well be a burr on the bolt as you suggest. |
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Ammo does not appear to be sighs of over pressure looking the primer. Instead, looks like the bottom of the rim relief channel on the extractor has a bur, and is proud of the bolt face recess channel, and what is causing the problem. Again, photos would help (one of the extractor in the bolt as well) since I would almost bank that the extractor is out of spec. Take a look at the photo below and on the right hand bolt, notice how the extractor bottom of rim relief channel if slightly before the face of the bolt, and the bolt face channel it self does not have any burs. This is the ideal set up. As for the bolt on the left, extractor is out of spec, and will see that it seats too far in on the bolt face (circluar edge of the bolt face recess wall line), causing for a hell of a time for the round's rim to be able to climb past it/ push it out and being able to ride down the angled part of the extractor on loading. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/ocsk8brdr/Arfcom/IMG_4330_zpsa838d665.jpg View Quote I will post some photos today. But like I said, Black Hills flat out told me the ammo shows signs of over pressure. They make the ammo, so I'm willing to bet they know what they're talking about. Not saying the bolt doesn't have burrs as well, though. Stay tuned for some photos. |
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To find a burr I gently slide a jewelers screwdriver across the face of the bolt. The burrs are hard to see and it only takes a small amount to shave the brass. The screwdriver will hang/catch on a raised edge. I have seen them on the edges at the extractor cutout and at the ejector hole. On mine the ones around the ejector hole in the bolt leave little shavings around the ejector.
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To find a burr I gently slide a jewelers screwdriver across the face of the bolt. The burrs are hard to see and it only takes a small amount to shave the brass. The screwdriver will hang/catch on a raised edge. I have seen them on the edges at the extractor cutout and at the ejector hole. On mine the ones around the ejector hole in the bolt leave little shavings around the ejector. View Quote Well I think I've found the burr as you can see in the photos. What's the best type of file to remove it? Same file would work on the entire inner and outer circumference of the rear of the BCG as well? I believe that is what's causing the buffer wear. |
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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/010/9/d/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8dd2v4.jpg "A" problem???? I can count about 4 of them from what I can see just in this above photo. Starting on the edge from the extractor side channel, to the bolt recess surface, that entire edge of the bolt face is one long high ridge/bur. Next run a pick tool from the bolt recess face surface, to the extractor bottom relief channel surface that is in line with it. Instead of the pick tool dropping slightly down as it leaves the bolt face surface and start to track across the extractor rim relief surface, the the tip of the pick tool would needed to step up instead. Then on the same extractor bottom rim recess surface, both edges have nasty burs as well. Get the supply on the phone to have the entire Bolt replaced; extractor and all!!! View Quote I'm having trouble following what you're talking about. The burr I was talking about is the long "ridge" along the extractor channel's edge. Is that what you're referring to? And in order to have the bolt replaced, I'd have to send the whole gun back to Noveske right? With a new bolt, it needs to be head spaced again, no? And I'm thinking the BCG has burrs on the rear of it as well, which is causing the buffer face wear. So I'm going to try to push to have them replace the entire BCG, bolt and all, plus a new buffer. Plus have the head space re-checked. Ugh. Pain in the ass. |
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Pull the extractor, and run the tip of a sharp knife from the firing pin channel outward past the edge of where the extractor channel starts on the side of the bolt. When the knife tip gets to the edge of the corner where the extractor channel starts, the tip is going to hit the first long bur across that entire edge of the bolt face. Now put the extractor back in, and do the same with the knife edge, and take is all the way inside to the side wall of the extractor channel (inside the case rim relief channel of the extractor). Now with the tip of the knife hits the extractor start edge, instead of the tip of the knife dropping down a touch to drop onto the extractor rim releif channel surface, the tip is going to stop since it is hitting edge of the extractor flat section that protruding above the face of the bolt instead. Now when you have the tip of the knife inside the extractor rim section, move the edge left and right, and you will be hitting burs on both sides of the extractor channel as well. So with the extractor off the bolt, the first ridge/bur that needs to be clean up this one on the face of the bolt to make sure that the entire bolt face is smooth and level. http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Dano523/bolt_zps7a3d8385.jpg If you look at this case, it the dent cause on it. http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/008/1/c/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8d3bmr.jpg On the extractor, it needs to be milled to lower the bottom ledge of the rim releif channel down so it does not protrude above the bolt face surface , then clean up the side burs after is have been lowered, so as the bolt rotates around on the rim and slightly cants the extractor in the bolt channel, it does not shave the rim brass . http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Dano523/extractor_zps19615acb.jpg This is what causing the brass shaving in this photo. http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/008/3/6/photo_1_by_haftelm-d8d3bml.jpg Now the reason to send it back, instead of trying to clean this mess without mill yourself, both the bolt and the extractor are heat treated, and the standard HSS type files you try to use, will not even scratch the metal of the two (at most, will just end up filing the parkerizing off). View Quote Thanks for that! I will try to get on the phone with Noveske on Monday. Hopefully I can get a replacement. What about my headspace question? Can I just put in a new BCG and Bolt or does the new bolt need to be headspaced? If not, then Noveske can just send me a new bolt and BCG. But if it needs headspacing due to the new bolt, I'll have to send the whole rifle back. |
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Noveske is very good about holding their dimension in regards to head spacing, so the replacement bolt should held head spacing fine as well.
But on that note, if you do suspect a head spacing problem (not seeing over pressure problems via the spent primers) , then best to send the entire upper back to be checked. The reason for this is the barrel itself is most of the head spacing math (barrel extension front of lugs to the chamber that could be off). |
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Noveske is very good about holding their dimension in regards to head spacing, so the replacement bolt should held head spacing fine as well. But on that note, if you do suspect a head spacing problem (not seeing over pressure problems via the spent primers) , then best to send the entire upper back to be checked. The reason for this is the barrel itself is most of the head spacing math (barrel extension front of lugs to the chamber that could be off). View Quote Cool, thanks. I do not currently see any signs of a headspace issue. However if they mail me a new bolt, I just want to make sure I can drop it in without having to recheck the headspace. |
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Spoke to Noveske this morning. They said the wear on the buffer is normal. But that the bolt/BCG does appear to have a possible bur. Shipping back the upper for them to take a look and possibly replace bolt/BCG and check head space.
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UPDATE:
Noveske took a look at the upper. Test fired it and they said they weren't getting any gouging or case marks. Strange. Maybe it's the ammo I was using? Either way, they did replace the bolt and head space it to the barrel. They are shipping out today. So I should have it back early next week. |
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Got the upper back today. Everything appears as it should. Won't be able to get to the range for a week or so. I'm out of town this weekend. Will report back when that happens.
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Spoke to Noveske this morning. They said the wear on the buffer is normal. View Quote Wow, Noveske said this? Aren't they supposed to be a super elite, high end operator only AR manufacturer? I have a budget PSA AR that probably cost 1/3 that didn't have any of these issues. I am dissapoint. |
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Got my replacement ammo from Black Hills today. So I now have a new bolt and new ammo. Will try to hit the range this weekend to see what happens.
Also, Black Hills sent me a full 500-round case as replacement, even though I used up a couple hundred rounds. They paid shipping both ways too. So their customer service is great. :) |
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http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/031/8/0/stainless1_by_haftelm-d8g6h58.jpg Not bad, and about the same 10 round size groups that I get with Wolf 62 grain steel case ammo out of one of my NM rigs (iron sights) when benched at 100 yards (1/8 NM barrel). Give the barrel some time to unify in, and with hand loads to make the rig really sing, should be able to group much tighter. View Quote I don't load. So I'm stuck with factory ammo. The group in the photo right above the pic you quoted is a lot better though. But on the smaller end of the spectrum for me. The one you quoted is about the average for me. I haven't been shooting for very long though. What do you mean by "give the barrel time to unify in"? |
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The barrel needs to do a few things before it will group it's best.
The throat of the chamber (and maybe even the muzzle) may has some small burs that need to knock off via live fire so the bullets are embedding cleaning into the rifling at ignition jump (and exit cleaning in the case of the muzzle). The steel of the barrel needs to stress relive (again, through live fire). The lands and grooves of the rifling need to unify by the bullets moving down the bore (through live fire again, so try to keep the bore clean to allow this to happen quickly). Hence, On a barrel that was not hand lapped to do the above, give the barrel around 300 rounds to unify in, and it should shooting it's best by then. |
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The barrel needs to do a few things before it will group it's best. The throat of the chamber (and maybe even the muzzle) may has some small burs that need to knock off via live fire so the bullets are embedding cleaning into the rifling at ignition jump (and exit cleaning in the case of the muzzle). The steel of the barrel needs to stress relive (again, through live fire). The lands and grooves of the rifling need to unify by the bullets moving down the bore (through live fire again, so try to keep the bore clean to allow this to happen quickly). Hence, On a barrel that was not hand lapped to do the above, give the barrel around 300 rounds to unify in, and it should shooting it's best by then. View Quote I already have close to 400 rounds through this rifle. I've cleaned it twice now. Just nylon bore brush and patches. I use either MPro7 or Breakfree CLP or Slip2000 Degreaser. Depending on what I reach for. When I cleaned yesterday I ran a patch with some MPro7 copper eliminator through the bore. Noveske doesn't recommend any sort of extended "break in" process with their barrels anyway. I've found that this rifle shoots its best when on a cold and fresh/clean bore. i.e. the first 20 rounds or so are the most consistent of the day. Even when I let the rifle cool for a while and shoot again, it's still not as consistent/accurate as those first 20 rounds on a cold and clean bore. |
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Use something like Sweets copper solvent to clean the bore (removes the copper quickly without the need of a lot of scrubbing), then switch over to CLP to clean the rest of the rifle, including the chamber with chamber brush. The Sweets leaves behind no protective layer coating, and the CLP from the chamber cleaning pushed down the bore will be enough for short term storage to protect the barrel bore from rusting (even SS can rust). Then, before you go to the range, just use a cotton mop with alcohol to remove any of the CLP in the chamber (read the Teflon in CLP takes around 14 shots to fully clean it out of the bore).
Hence, part of unifying the land and grooves, is to allow the copper bullets to polish the surfaces as well, and if the surfaces of the barrel are copper gilded, then the bullet is not polishing these surface, but instead just passing over gilded surfaces instead. So no, you don't need to keep the barrel spotless for a extended break in period, but you do want to get all the copper out of the barrel at cleanings instead (without needed to do a lot of scrubbing, since more rifle barrels are destroyed by over scrubbing, then actually being shot out instead. |
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