Yes, I have read through all the archives and many sites, but I find it interesting that Young MFG says this.



I was looking at the stake job on a PWA commando rifle from 1995 and it is not even staked (not one problem ever with gas key), so I guess my question is... I am not going to buy a $150+ stake tool, I am very capable of using a punch set and hammer. How would you go about this.

56inch lbs, blue/red permatex/loctite, and....?

This is from a 1995 PWA Commando, never had one problem with gas key or the bolt ever.
I say its not staked because staking is putting the metal over the top of the screw, not jamming into the side of it.

Looks like some of the metal is displaced into the sides of the screw, coming in from the top...almost like the older manuals used to direct folks to do it- just not deep enough. Would rather see stake marks into the gas key and towards the screws...

As long as the screw does not have room to unscrew, it will probably last as long as it lasts.

Thread lock and other stuff just makes it harder to service the thing later on. Glad you have good luck with that carrier.

Maybe someone in your hometown forum can let you use the staking tool?

Well what I am asking is .... how would member's go about staking their gas key, without using a $150 tool. Also I just find it funny that a MFG say's not to stake it. I use blue loctite on mostly everything and it comes off without much issue, now the red version is much different I'll agree.

Well,

On a bolt carrier I'd either stake it or thread lock it...

So I'd also give some sort of witness mark so when you clean it you can see if it's moving...

Bret

This is what I was thinking, giving it a scratch mark after 56inch lbs, and blue loctite, then fire 100 rounds and check, it just seems like this is a question that can go either way for lots of people.

Yep,

I've worked on many guns and built airplanes, etc...

There is many ways to do any job...

So, as long as its not leaking gas from the key...torqued to the proper amount...and it doesn't move...

This can be done many ways...locktite, staking, pining, even lock washers could work...

Now, not using the approved or tested methods will require testing the method...

If you don't stake it...check it from time to time...and make sure it's not loosening up..

Bret

I read your earlier post wrong, sorry.

Blue Loctite will break down due to heat. Red or better, but its not going to be easy to service the parts later on.

I would just stake the gas key, trying to get as close to factory job as possible. It doesn't take much to get the key material moved by staking with a dull chisel and hitting with a metal hammer.
If its not deep enough, strike again.

That letter from Youngs starts a war of words every time here on arfcom. Better to ask "beans or no beans" or "9mm vs 45acp"

If you plan on shooting the gun, always stake per mil spec. I use a dulled screw driver and a hammer. BCG in the vise. I usually buy the BCG complete from a quality manufacture. I've staked five or six keys when building someone elses gun. Never had an issue with any of them.

I don't buy the snake oil printed in the OP. How many companies do that? How many companies stake it properly? What does the mil do? Most guns are over gassed and don't need more pressure in the carrier. The key doesn't need to seal perfectly to the carrier. The screws will back out. That is the reasoning for staking. The BCG goes through quite a bit of violent action when cycling. The key will loosen and crush the end of the gas tube if it is still cycling. I've seen this happen twice.

Thanks, this is the kind of replies I am looking for, not the run of the mill "Stake It". So as far as inch lbs, I know the older manuals say 30 to 40, but Youngs says 56, what do you think about that?

Well,

Yes to clarify ... Not blue...not in a heat prone area...

Now serviceability is another concern...

I wish they had what airplanes have...and I have on a couple of bcg I've built...

I run a very small hole from the outer area of the key through the hex of the nut and then pin it with a small roll pin...

Pin can't come out when in the channel and easy visual check as well...

I think it's .0235 drill...if memory serves me...I have the jigs for doing this on aircraft...

Easiest service...drive out the pin...unscrew...

Reassemble with new screws...I don't reuse screws on anything twice...one a bolt has been torqued I toss them...

I'm sure most of you know torque is actually a round about way to determine bolt stretch...which is real hard to measure on a blind bolt...

And once a bolt is stretched...it may stretch different the second time...also torque of different grade bolts are different even if the threads are lubricated...etc all make a differance in the torque..

Anyhow,

I usually stake mine....fastest to do...that is why it's used for the standard...quick is not necessarily better...

Yes staked is mil spec...but red locktite isn't a bad choice...

Now I doubt 99% of the bcg's will ever get a replaced gas key...most people will never run enough ammo to warrant it...

More ars are worn out by cleaning than by use...

Bret

I like to run it up to 40 inch pounds and back it off, then re-torque and stake.

Yeah I was thinking 40 to 45inch pounds, and you just use a flat punch or a pointed?

Improper cleaning. I agree. Newbs do more damage to their guns that wear from shooting.

Also I am guessing using a substance like brake cleaner to get rid of all the oil on the surface of the gas key and socket head cap screws would be a good idea also?

Army TM from 2008 indicates 50-58 lbs-in torque for the gas key screws.  Brake cleaner or acetone would be good for cleaning threads/surfaces prior to applying threadlocker.  There's a high-heat version of the red stuff that I think is good to 600 degrees though I'm not 100% sure if that's the right stuff here.

Well,

This isn't rocket science...hell rocket science isn't rocket science these days...

Specs and best practices are great...they get everyone on the same page...

But if the spec said red locktite...I'd still say staking will do as well...

The main object here is to keep those screws from coming loose!

This is an easy objective...

If someone isn't comfortable with staking without the tool...never knew there was one...they can use red locktite as a substitute...and know it may be a bit harder to change out a gas key...and to put on a witness mark to see if it's moving...

Really I've seen some damn poor staking...even from "professionals" but because of the marks from the piss poor attempt at staking being a witness mark you can see if anything is moving as well...

Now I'm not saying to throw some pick a nut #2 Phillips screw in there finger tight and it good...

Just the opposite.

Use your head...that is in short supply some days...this piece takes a decent load in a shear manner...

As long as the fastener is of sufficient grade to take that load may times a second...which in this case is grade 8...actually induces issues as well...

Grad 8 bolts are hard...so, they can easily back out as well...because they don't stretch as much as a lower grade bolt does...

So, then the fastener needs something to keep it in position...

Now as long as the fastener is kept from spinning we are golden!

Most things on the ar are either interference fit, or held with a detent, or thread lock, or lock washer...etc.

Now, in service the m16 needs to be able to run virtually maintance free for extended lengths of time...and the maintance they do get isn't great...so, like most .mil items is overbuilt!

That weapon is going to be in the hands of an 18-22 yo kid...with minimum training on the maintance...so the .mil has guides and they follow them...this is where it gets wierd...these guides are not the best method to accomplish a task all the time...

We all know things in the .mil are run for the mass...one manual fits all...this isn't always the best approach...

We have the ability to spend more time and resources on our ar's than the military will ever dedicate...

There is a select few in the .mil that do try new ways to accomplish a task...but these are the 1%ers...

Now, I'm not a 1% card carrying member...but in our endeavors we can use our combined heads...all this group here on arfcom can do this...

.mil says stake so stake it...ok, it works...but is it the best...

Not always...quite often there is ways we can do things that are just as good...maybe even better...

Now, this is a long rant...and I'm not picking on anyone or anything like that...

I just feel that there is a huge wealth and breadth of knowledge here and even things as minor as staking a gas key can use a second look...

Let's not just say...rtfm...I've built many custom items...and modified many more things...and I'm sure here is a huge amount of arfcom ers that have done the same...

Now, who says red locktite isn't the best method...has anyone had a failure with red locktite...has it been proven substandard...

So, until a method is proven unworthy give it a try...we may come up with the next best thing...or from time to time the very best thing...

Not many people here are using thier ar's for work, when I worked we were told to use this...not anything custom...

Now, if you have a new idea, or even a different way to do something, a non critical ar is perfect...

Now, I have my personal ar, built to the best of my and my gunsmiths abilitys...sparing no expense of time and money...it will run 99.9%...

Then I have many other ar's that are either test beds for an idea or testing a new product or whatever...they all run great...but until proven these are not a working weapon.

I just tonight as a fact installed a bad lever on my personal gun...having it on practice guns and using it for quit a while now...grabbed a brand new one and installed it on my weapon tonight...that's called testing...

I used pmags for testing only for over a year...etc...

Now, trying something new is what building you weapon yourself is all about...

Else, we would just order an armalite and use that...

Well, this is a long enough rant for this evening...

Bret

Yeah there is a Permanent Red and a High Temp Red version. Thanks for the input.

Well,

If you go with locktite you want 721

It will only remove one the part is heated to 500f then it's still tough...

Clean with mek is my choice or DuPont 3812S reducer works well too...

If you need to take it back apart then you can throw the bolt carrier into an oven at 550 deg an bake for about 15-20 mins...

It a high grade pices shouldn't have any ill effects...just don't throw it in an ice bucket...

but you shoul be fine with that...

Bret

I'm in the offshore business so I have access to what we call a "rosebud" basically a torch for pre heating pipe, that's how I always break the red loctite, but ill keep all of this in mind.

Well,

Great, I have a rosebud for my oxy setup as well...

I have a machine and fab shop at my house...well, 300 feet from the house...

I have been building and fabricating what I need for awhile...

I own an apple orchard, and this next year vines as well...

If you have experience with removing 721 your just fine...

Sometimes it just bugs me the way of most people...saying cause its in the book...

That book could be way out of date, or written by an imbecile...

I understand why .mil and such have these guides...but they are not perfect...they quite often need new books cuz the last one is now obcelete.

Now, saying those bold need to stay tight and staking them is the .mil way is fine...but, it's not the only way...

If orvil and Wilbur would have listened to the educated people they wouldn't have ever went to kittyhawk...

Some things people try work and some don't...

Edison said when trying to make what would later be known as the light bulb...i didnt fail making a light bulb, I just learned may ways to not make a light bulb...or something like that...too lazy to google it...

Buy, same goes here...if you do use the red locktite and it works and it's easier to assemble and better...great...if not, good...we all know why it didn't work...now try the next thing...and btw I'm sure 721 isn't going anywhere...

Biggest reason for .mil not using it...I'm sure is it needs a decent amount of cure time...staking is instant gratification...

Bret

I appreciate the info, I just wanted to get a feeling for what you guys thought, rather than read all the debates from 2008+, and like in the oilfield "KISS" Keep it simple stupid. Thanks for helping me out.

No problem

Should be clear as mud now :)

Bret

Well I just needed someone with your boldness to make me not over complicate it.

I have never staked a key on any of my personal weapons after leaving the military. My old instructors said the only reason for staking over threadlocker is to make field and depot level repairs by armorers easier and quicker, the cure time and heat required to disassemble for R&R greatly impacts man hours and costs, 30 minutes to stake the key vrs 24 hours for 271 cure. it's all about getting weapons back into service as quickly and as cheaply as possible. That isnt always the best way, anyone who has been in the military can attest to that fact, LOL

It's never taken me longer than 3 min to stake a key. The thing that takes the longest, is finding the screwdriver that I like to use.

That is the time alloted for that maintenance action when calculating manhours. 1 man for .5 hours from what I recall. That includes getting the parts and tools together, performing the maintenance, then testing and of course the followup paperwork.  Yes the job can be performed alot quicker, but if you dont document those manhours(or greater) then the pentagon will reevaluate the manning levels and reduce the manning level of the armory.

Loctite 2620 is HIGH strength and rated at 650 degrees.

Yeah they have one red that is permanent hold and one red that is high temp, noticed that earlier. Went to the local gun show this morning in Louisiana and probably half of the state was there. They had simple plain old AR's for 2800+, Lowers 400+, everything retarded priced, even gunbroker is selling for less than 300 on lowers now.

Yes I know that has nothing to do with staking, but I felt I needed to add that.

I like overkill when assembling. I may even add a ritual to the dark lord to ensure functionality. Here are the steps I use when assembling the bolt carrier and its gas key.

1. Soak the bolt carrier, grade 8 fasteners and gas key in Acetone.
2. Dry off the bolt carrier, fasteners and gas key.
3. Apply locktite primer to the threads of the fasteners and to the bolt carriers threads.
4. Apply a thin layer of permatex to the bottom of the gas key.
5. Seat the gas key on the bolt carrier.
6. Apply red locktite 271 to the fasteners.
7. Torque the fasteners with a torque wrench to 56 in. lbs.
8. Clean up excess permatex from the gas ports and surrounding the gas key.
9. Use a staking tool to shift metal of the gas key against the fasteners in at least two points per fastener.
10. Using a punch, flatten any raised areas to remove burs and sharp points.
11. Wait for 24 hours before using the assembly in live fire.

Some lap the bottom of the gas key before applying the Permatex. Usually this is excessive unless there are visual defects.

Nice detailed post, thanks for info.