Quick question.  Wading through the FAQ's and all the other recent posts, I haven't found anything that definitely states that one of these loads is better than the other.  For the record, I'm shooting a 14.5" 1:9 M4, with most shots within 100m.  Reading the data on the TAP box, it lists a velocity in the 2600fps range, while the Black Hills lists a velocity of 2750FPS.  Is this 100fps increase in velocity coupled with a 2gr increase in bullet weight significant?  Or is the performance difference between these rounds insignificant?  Thanks!

Andy

I am just dying to see some good, solid information on these loads. Since it was mentioned that these rounds have been used by our military forces in Operation Enduring Freedom, people have started a "heavy bullet" frenzy. But the truth is, there's not many of us (myself included) that know very much about these ammo types.

Canadian Tactical seems to think highly of both rounds, while he seems to give the edge in performance to the TAP by a very slight margin. He says both performs very well though. But I don't know if he is refering to the commercial or mil-spec variants. There is a significant difference...as the military loads are propelled at about 2800 fps. This could make a big difference in fragmentation effect.

I can't wait to see a detailed study performed on these (as well as on loads using the 69 gr Sierra MatchKing's) at close and long ranges, and with gel. That should tell us whether or not the commercial loads are good for defensive use or not. I am sure that Tat and Brou will in fact conduct such an assessment as soon as time, money and material is available. The reason I am so sure they will do this is to add the info to a permanent thread or FAQ, so all of us will stop aggravating them to death! LOL.

But if the commercial loads are proven inferior to the mil-spec stuff, that still leaves us with the option of loading our own. I just wonder what type of powder charge it would take to effectively (while safely) propelling a 77 gr projectile downrange at 2800 fps. Also, what powder types would be good for low flash? While having custom loaded rounds for self defense may not be the best thing......they would still work well for longer range shooting. While they would still be more expensive than M193 or M855, you could still load cheaper than you could buy factory loaded versions for.

---I am going to do an on-line search to see if I can find any new info on either 69 gr SMK's, 77 gr SMK's, 75 gr TAP's or 77 gr Nosler's. This lack of ballistics data is just killing me! Killing me I tell you! LOL. If I find anything that looks intelligent on the subject, I will share it with you folks.

---Charging Handle

1.  You cant stabilze a 77 grain projectile with a 14.5" 1/9 barrel and 75 grains is REALLY pushing it.

2.  75 grain round yaws/ fragments faster and has a greater % fragmentation.

3.  75 grain round is less expensive than the 77 grain round.

4.  DocGKR told me the 77 grain Sierras had set back problems in the SPRs in A-stan and they now use a 77 grain Nosler bullet.  I cant find any evidence of the existance of a 77 grain Nosler load for sale.

5.  The 75 grain TAP round and the Black Hills 75 grain round use the same bullet with the same .223 non military pressures.  The difference in velocity is the barrel length they used to get that figure (from my understanding anyway)

6.  BH Blue box is often more accurate than the new production red box.

7.  BH 75 grain blue box costs half what TAP ammo costs.

So buy 75 grain blue box Black Hills Match BTHP and have fun shooting it.

Quoted: 1.  You cant stabilze a 77 grain projectile with a 14.5" 1/9 barrel and 75 grains is REALLY pushing it.

Haven't tested, but I've heard this is the case.

2.  75 grain round yaws/ fragments faster and has a greater % fragmentation.

True

4.  DocGKR told me the 77 grain Sierras had set back problems in the SPRs in A-stan and they now use a 77 grain Nosler bullet.  I cant find any evidence of the existance of a 77 grain Nosler load for sale.

The setback problems may be true.  The 77gr MK's do not have a cannelure on them.  The 75gr TAP/BH that the military gets (civilians can't buy) is cannelured.  This likely helps with the the better fragmentation that you listed above.  The 77gr Nosler DOES exist.  It is cannelured, and in military loadings reaches about 2800fps.  Most likely, it will soon replace the 77gr MK.

5.  The 75 grain TAP round and the Black Hills 75 grain round use the same bullet with the same .223 non military pressures.  The difference in velocity is the barrel length they used to get that figure (from my understanding anyway)

True.  They are the same bullet.  Velocity difference on the civilian version box could be due to barel length, I don't know.  However, the military's version is loaded to NATO spec, while what we can get is loaded to SAAMI, meaning we will get less velocity.

I was wondering if anyone has ordered the Black Hills ammo from the Civilian Marksmanship Program? If so, is this the same ammo commercially available? They list 1,000 rds of BH 75 gr 5.56 BTHP remanufactured at $310 delivered.

Brou,

Would it be safe to say that even though velocities in the SAAMI ammo is down from that of the mil-spec stuff, that it would still fragment in CQB ranges sufficiently? While the loads we get probably would not fragment as well as the mil-spec loads evidently are at 200 or even 300 yards, I think most here are concerned with self defense applications...which will almost always be well inside 100 yards. So the question is, will the Black Hills 75 gr BTHP get the job done out from 5 ft to say 100 yds? My thinking is yes, but just want to ask someone more knowledgeable before I make that statement.

Secondly, I am hearing lots of stuff said about the Black Hills remanufactured loads. I have never been a big fan of remanufactured stuff, especially for serious use ammo. But it seems this Black Hills remanufactured ammo has a very good rep. Can it be trusted? Also, since I am assuming this ammo isn't sealed, what, if any precautions can we make so this ammo will store well for several years? Put it in ammo cans with dessicant? Try to seal the primers with something? What's the consensus here?

And one last thing, can the 1x9 twist barrels stabilize these 75 gr bullets? I have a 16" Colt with a 1x7 twist, so I am sure it can. But many others and I would say most AR users have the 1x9 twist. How will this ammo work for them? Or would those users be better served by using the 69 gr BTHP's? Thanks.

---Charging Handle

Black HIlls has sealed primers but not case necks.  I have a box in front of me and just pulled a bullet.  The primer seal is very evident from just looking at it.  I am sure it will store nicely in an ammo can with desicant.  Just dont store it underwater.

Quoted: And one last thing, can the 1x9 twist barrels stabilize these 75 gr bullets?

Yes.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=140161

I give a slight edge to the TAP 75 grain because it's terminal ballistic neck isn't as long as the 77 grain SMK.

Indeed, Noslers are more interesting than SMK, but this is because of setback problems and the fact that Nosler puts a cannelure in their bullet and other manufacturers aren't doing that.

TAP in gel:  Q. But what about specialty commercial rounds, like TAP, hollowpoints, and softpoints?  Aren't they better than mil-spec ammo for defensive use?

77 grain SMK in gel: Q. So are heavier rounds dead for self-defense purposes?

Ok, so the Black Hills 75 gr BTHP uses the same bullet as Hornady's TAP?

And the 75 gr bullet will be stabilized and accurate enough out of a 1x9 twist barrel?

If the answer to these questions are both yes, then I am gonna have one helluva time trying to figure out whether I want the 69 gr Match King's or the 75 gr TAP's! Choices, choices, choices! LOL

since the finest spec ops group in the world (thank god they are ours) use hornady tap 75gr
and have for 5-6 yrs and are satisfied with in a/g/stan i see no reason to change

p.s.  their ammo is form standard mfg no special
cannulure? anything  how do i know cause i have both from bragg and from horn factory.

use what the pro's do

jjw

Quoted: since the finest spec ops group in the world (thank god they are ours) use hornady tap 75gr and have for 5-6 yrs and are satisfied with in a/g/stan i see no reason to change

Ok, who is the "finest spec ops group in the world" and do you have a citation for this "fact?"

p.s.  their ammo is form standard mfg no special cannulure? anything  how do i know cause i have both from bragg and from horn factory.

Sorry, false.

use what the pro's do

Who are "the pro's" [sic] ?

Quoted: Quoted: since the finest spec ops group in the world (thank god they are ours) use hornady tap 75gr and have for 5-6 yrs and are satisfied with in a/g/stan i see no reason to change Ok, who is the "finest spec ops group in the world" and do you have a citation for this "fact?" p.s.  their ammo is form standard mfg no special cannulure? anything  how do i know cause i have both from bragg and from horn factory. Sorry, false. use what the pro's do Who are "the pro's" [sic] ? weeeeel lets start with sf guys at bragg and move on over tosome guys who start w/ a d in their name will go real slow here jjw

see above i dont always do puter stuff correct.

since many of those guys are friends of mine and i see a lot on a regular basis i think i am fairley safe in that statment
was NOT meant to start a p-----g contest about gsg-9vs sas vs whoever. i could care less.


it was meant to be a helpful heads up in ammo use.

jjw

Quoted: Would it be safe to say that even though velocities in the SAAMI ammo is down from that of the mil-spec stuff, that it would still fragment in CQB ranges sufficiently? While the loads we get probably would not fragment as well as the mil-spec loads evidently are at 200 or even 300 yards, I think most here are concerned with self defense applications...which will almost always be well inside 100 yards. So the question is, will the Black Hills 75 gr BTHP get the job done out from 5 ft to say 100 yds? My thinking is yes, but just want to ask someone more knowledgeable before I make that statement.

Without the cannelure on the TAP,BH, I honeslty don't know.  I'm thinking it will still fragment, just not as nicely as the miliary load.  The police apparantly like it, so...

Let me look into it for you.

Secondly, I am hearing lots of stuff said about the Black Hills remanufactured loads. I have never been a big fan of remanufactured stuff, especially for serious use ammo. But it seems this Black Hills remanufactured ammo has a very good rep. Can it be trusted? Also, since I am assuming this ammo isn't sealed, what, if any precautions can we make so this ammo will store well for several years? Put it in ammo cans with dessicant? Try to seal the primers with something? What's the consensus here?

I have heard nothing but good things about BH ammo.  Their remanufactured loads are often more accurate than their new loads.  I think with proper storage, you can expect a long shelf life with ANY ammo, sealed or not.  I would not attempt to seal the primers if they aren't already.

And one last thing, can the 1x9 twist barrels stabilize these 75 gr bullets? I have a 16" Colt with a 1x7 twist, so I am sure it can. But many others and I would say most AR users have the 1x9 twist. How will this ammo work for them? Or would those users be better served by using the 69 gr BTHP's?

I have VERY little experience shooting 75gr's out of my 16" 1/9, but I know at 100 yds they were still stabilized.  I have not had a chance to shoot anything heavier than 69gr past that distance thru my 1/9" rifle.  However, many have reported in the past that there isn't any problems.  Of course, I'm sure temperature/humidity/etc. will play a big role in that.  I think you'll just have to go test them out for yourself.

Quoted: p.s.  their ammo is form standard mfg no special cannulure? anything  how do i know cause i have both from bragg and from horn factory.

jjw,

Tatja is right about the cannelure.  The version of the Hornady 75gr that the military gets has a cannelure added to it that we can't get (yet).

You may be confused with the 77gr SMK which does NOT have a cannelure on it.

i have horn. tap that came from a case unloaded and handed to d-boys and given to me and it has no cannulure and i buy horn tap as a le/mil supplier and it is the same bullet i pulled 1 of each from my ware house before i wrote this.

jjw

fyi    www.odspec.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: And one last thing, can the 1x9 twist barrels stabilize these 75 gr bullets? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes.

Thanks for the info AR15-fan; but I noticed you were shooting these out of a 24" 1/9 barrel. That means a little extra velocity at the very least and four more inches of barrel to stabilize the round.

If you are shooting a shorter barrel, or a little longer, or in a little different weather, it might make a difference in how the 1/9 performs.

Like Brouhaha, I've had no problem with 75gr at 100yds in my 16" 1/9 this summer; but I'm curious to see if that would hold true at longer distances or in colder weather. This being Texas, I'll be waiting awhile to conduct any cold weather tests.

Since I have a Colt 16" carbine with 1x7 twist, I am going to go with the 75 gr TAP based on what some of the more knowledgeable people are saying. For a defensive round, I like the shorter neck of the 75 gr round better than that on the Match King's.

I don't have anything with a 1x9 twist at this time and before buying one, I will make sure that I can shoot any of the ammo types through it. This may be one advantage of sticking with Colt. Do any other manufactures offer AR's with 1x7 twist barrels as an option? I guess 1x9 users could always use the 68 or 69 gr BTHP match loads. While these penetrate deeper before yawing and fragmenting, they still appear to be good performers.

I'm gonna order a 500 round case of the Black Hills 75 gr blue box from Georgia Precision and I will report back my findings once I test it. They have this incidentally cheaper than the SMK loads, at only $19.58 per box of 50 or 500 rounds for $178.00. This includes shipping. So that isn't all that bad for a specialty round.

Let me add this has been a great discussion! Keep the info rolling and I will keep reading it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: since the finest spec ops group in the world (thank god they are ours) use hornady tap 75gr and have for 5-6 yrs and are satisfied with in a/g/stan i see no reason to change Ok, who is the "finest spec ops group in the world" and do you have a citation for this "fact?" p.s.  their ammo is form standard mfg no special cannulure? anything  how do i know cause i have both from bragg and from horn factory. Sorry, false. use what the pro's do Who are "the pro's" [sic] ? weeeeel lets start with sf guys at bragg and move on over tosome guys who start w/ a d in their name will go real slow here jjw

Sorry, I don't understand a thing you are trying to type.

i said the d-boys were very satisfied with horn tap 75gr in afganistan they have been using it
for 4-5 yrs that i know of and are real satisfied. they understand the limitations of the weapon.

secondly if they are not the finast in the world who is and i dont give a s--- for gs-g9
s.a.s. or any other group.
citation i got no citation i just see them work
and am very impressed.
i am not a re-loader or a techi  i just use this stuff about 40-50 days a year. i dont profess to have a lot of techical knowledge.
i just listen to more qualified and do like-wise

hope this helps

jjw

also the s.f boys aint exactly chopped liver or do u know some super secret group no has ever heard of ???

good americans want to know

With respect to "75 grain TAP" there is a good bit of un-cannelured stuff out there in use by "units based at Fort Bragg."  It's not clear if this round is identical to the LE TAP- but I have two sources that say it's loaded heavier than the LE version.

I'm told that because testers have had problems with setback in some of the heavier rounds they have switched to cannelured rounds (like Hornady 75 grain) and taken delivery on a large order of it.  (Interestingly, it appears that the lack of a cannelure might knock a particular manufacturer out of the running for providing heavier rounds to the military).

Generally, rounds loaded for the military are not loaded the same as civilian or LE variants.  They are not "standard manufacture" or even "form standard mfg" [sic] (from standard manufacture? Standard form manufacture?  From standard manufacturing?  I have no idea what this means).

The military specs out what they want pretty specifically from manufacturers and orders in bulk- lots of purchasing power.

How much does this matter?

In heavier bullets the consensus seems to be that cannelures don't make much fragmentation difference- almost none.  As for velocity?  Remember that the military criteria is for a 14.5" M4.  Hopefully all you civilians out there have 16" barrels.  You probably won't see much terminal difference between LE and Military rounds in actual performance given the platform difference.

We may have tangible results on this question soon.

[edited to correct setback clarity]

Quoted: i said the d-boys were very satisfied with horn tap 75gr in afganistan they have been using it for 4-5 yrs that i know of and are real satisfied. they understand the limitations of the weapon. secondly if they are not the finast in the world who is and i dont give a s--- for gs-g9 s.a.s. or any other group. citation i got no citation i just see them work and am very impressed. i am not a re-loader or a techi  i just use this stuff about 40-50 days a year. i dont profess to have a lot of techical knowledge. i just listen to more qualified and do like-wise hope this helps jjw also the s.f boys aint exactly chopped liver or do u know some super secret group no has ever heard of ??? good americans want to know

I'm not sure why you are so anxious to make this into a urinating contest with respect to who the "best in the world" is- or why it's necessary to invoke the need of "good Americans" to know when you try to taunt an answer out of people.  (By the way, why didn't you capitalize "Americans?"  Don't you love America?  What kind of a patriot are you?  You're spitting in the face of every American!)

I don't really care which "unit" is "the best," as all such comparisons are pure bullshit anyhow.  All I wanted was specific facts about who you were claiming was using the load without some cloak and dagger game or obscure reference intended to... I have no idea what it was intended to do.  See, you presenting specific facts about the load and who uses it and why we should care helps us determine if you're an armchair warrior type hamming it up about "the most elite special forces in the world!" or if you actually know what you are talking about.

Every yahoo and his brother seems to be an expert in ammunition because "my pal in the most elite special force in the world uses it.  I'd tell you what unit but then I'd have to kill you."

To this I say: "Thanks for the input, buddy," and go about my business.

Christ, just say "Delta Force" if that's what you mean.  "The D-Boys" sounds like a dysfunctional rap band.  I can see their cover song now.  "D-Boys Dis Da-man."  Ugh.

It's like those Harvard grads you run into every once in a while.

Me: "Where'd you go to school."
Them: "In Massachusetts."
Me: "Oh really?  Where abouts?"
Them: "Boston area."
Me: "Wow, I spent time out there, which school?"
Them: (long pause) "Well... in Cambridge."

For the love of all things holy!  Just say HARVARD!  What's the problem?

Ugh.

i never want to say too  much, so i deal in general terms as i am friends with several that i shoot a lot of 3-gun matches with, in the bragg area and sell product to them and over the years become friends. also sevearal come to ohio and usally stay with us for a day or 2 on their way somewhere. also being an old" 11-b-p
it gives me a chance to see toys i never had in asia years ago.

now the original post to help a guy decide what ammo to use and as a reference the DELTA operators use horn tap it seemed like a good answer to me. as i remember u were the 1 who said what citation???

my thinking was i am not a techi or a ballistics expert so if i see a pro using something i just use it too after testing. seems like a good idea.

it was not meant as a p------ contest

if u need more go to   www.odspec.com
oh yea i am the guy on the right w/ the 12" shotgun


call if u want and we will talk. other wise this is over.

jjw

Quoted: i never know what to say about them so i deal in general terms as i am friends with several and dont want to say too much now the original post to help a guy decide what ammo to use and as a reference the DELTA operators use horn tap it seemed like a good answer to me. as i remember u were the 1 who said what citation??? my thinking was i am not a techi or a ballistics expert so if i see a pro using something i just use it too after testing. seems like a good idea. it was not meant as a p------ contest if u need more go to www.odspec.com call if u want and we will talk. jjw

First, if you're not supposed to be talking about your experiences with these people why in the world would you be discussing what ammo they use or using not-so-obscure references like "D-Boys" ?  (As if no one knew that meant Delta).

Also, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do on www.odspec.com (except buy products from you I guess- something I'm not likely to do).  Is there some kind of ballistics information on there that I'm missing?

boy we certainely get out little tail feathers in a snit dont we????????

u seem to be just another wannabe with a lot of techinal knowledge and a computer

having never pulled a trigger u just play god to us coommon folk.

iwont bother u or this group again

thanks

jjw

Quoted: if u need more go to   www.odspec.com oh yea i am the guy on the right w/ the 12" shotgun

Hahaha! That picture is great! I've never seen anyone use the home boyz sideways gangsta grip on a shotgun before. Is it uncomfortable having your beer gut piched betweeen the bottum of your tac vest and the top of your belt? Which mall do you work at?

Quoted: Quoted: if u need more go to   www.odspec.com oh yea i am the guy on the right w/ the 12" shotgun Hahaha! That picture is great! I've never seen anyone use the home boyz sideways gangsta grip on a shotgun before. Is it uncomfortable having your beer gut piched betweeen the bottum of your tac vest and the top of your belt? Which mall do you work at?

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't that door open... OUT?

Christ, just say "Delta Force" if that's what you mean.  "The D-Boys" sounds like a dysfunctional rap band.  I can see their cover song now.  "D-Boys Dis Da-man."  Ugh.

LMAO! I am in tears after that one! I see that you are almost the fan of rap that I am. What a mistake that genre of music (crap) was.

I must admit that I used to listen to The Beasty Boys though...hehe. "No Sleep Til Brooklyn"! They were sort of like a mutation of rap, heavy metal, punk and everything else rolled into one package.

"The D-Boys" sounds like a dysfunctional rap band.

Well, actually, if you look at the way they dress and wear their hair...

Quoted: "The D-Boys" sounds like a dysfunctional rap band. Well, actually, if you look at the way they dress and wear their hair...

Oh boy, let's not repeat the "SOCOM White Trash" thread... ugh.

How much faster are the "military" versions the 75/77 than the commercial (ie, from BH) versions ?

It should be no problem to replicate the military loadings in reloads if we know what we're shooting for.

-z

I don't mean to drag up great topics like "D-Boys" and "White Trash" SF but one of the big questions in here is still of interest to me-

For the RKIs who've worked with these rounds- Does there seem to be a strong incentive to use 75 grain TAP/ 77 grain SMK bullets when one is limited to the SAAMI loaded rounds?  
As I understand it (and correct away if I'm wrong)- these rounds, loaded to mil. velocities will exit a 16" barrel at ~2800fps, will be ~2400-2450 fps at 200m., and will still fragment well.

If you shoot these rounds out of a 16" barrel at 2600 fps muzzle velocity, do you see fragmentation beyond the ~150 meters you would get using M193 in the same gun?

I'm guessing that the definitive tests probably have not / will not be done as those most likely to shoot at such ranges DO have access to the higher velocity loadings but if y'all have some guestimate I'd appreciate it.

...Also- Are there other "wounding potential" advantages to TAP over M193 that I'm overlooking?  Like a dramatically shorter "neck" before tumbling for the TAP or something else?

Thanks to all for your guidance- I tried the search feature before posting but didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

IIRC the SAAMI vs NATO difference was around 200fps(ish)
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/CANADIAN%5FTACTICAL%2F77gr%2Ejpg[/img]
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/CANADIAN%5FTACTICAL%2F75gr%2Ejpg[/img]

AHAB - due partially to the longer length these rounds will reliable fragment down to lower velocities than the M855 or M193 - I would not expect fragementation @ 150yds w/ M193 from a 16" Carbine

the ammofaq is one of the best open source materials out there - another good bet is to head over to [url]www.tacticalforums.com[/url] and seek out the Terminal Effects Forum - which has two extremely qualified mods (and this is not a knock at the three here).