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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bill Springfield Trigger Job Review (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 10/17/2007 5:26:47 AM EDT
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I just received my stock trigger back from Bill Springfield in Colorado Springs, CO. I am totally impressed by his work. Probably between 3 1/2 to 4 lbs. and it's like the proverbial "Breaking a Glass Rod" feel. I put it through about 200 rounds yesterday, and it performed flawlessly. I talked with Bill about reliability and the "Expected" longevity of his trigger jobs, so that I could perform "preventative Maintenance" as needed to make sure I head off any long term issues, like "Following" etc. and this is the content of that discussion: Bill first pointed out that the trigger and hammer are usually around a Rockwell Hardness of RC 50-55. This is very hard! The disconnector is usually around a Rockwell Hardness of RC 30. Much softer. Regarding the quality of Disconnectors....It seems that some manufacturers stamp their disconnectors while other laser cut them. The stamping method sometimes leaves radius's that are uneven, and causes problems. Bill specifically looks for this type of issue, because a poorly cut disconnector can have a dramatic effect on the pre-mature wearing of the hammer. I asked a very pointed question about "Defensive Weapons" that have to work 100% of the time. The question was..."How many rounds should pass before someone does preventative maintenance I.e., replacing the hammer and trigger or disconnector"? Bills' answer was two-fold. His reply was that the disconnector should be tested every time you disassemble the weapon to make sure it's doing its' intended job. (This is in the manual by the way). This is done by opening up the lower, cocking the trigger by hand, squeezing the trigger (not letting it fall on the lower), keeping the trigger depressed, and cocking the hammer with your thumb again to make sure the disconnector allows for the trigger to re-set with the hammer. The hammer should not fall if the disconnector is doing its' job. The second part of the answer to the "Preventative Maintenance" question was fairly straight ahead. Bill stated that " the trigger and hammer are so hard that they should easily last between 8,000 to 10,000 rounds without any issue." (I remember these types of numbers on 1911 trigger jobs I had). However, he continued on..."the disconnector should probably be replaced every 3,000 to 5000 rounds depending on the quality of the OEM part." Although Bill stated that just about every manufacturers FCG can be "worked on" he likes the upper end manufacturers parts. (I'm not going to degrade this thread by getting into what Bill believes to be the "Quality Manufacturers." Anyone that has been around and has stayed current, knows who they are, and they're not necessarily the same as 5-7 years ago. Bill also stated that "I strive to have an overlap between the hammer and trigger of (5) 1,000ths of an inch where many only leave (1) 1,000th of an inch bearing surface to avoid any "Full Auto" related failures." One last point that Bill wanted to emphasize..."Proper lubrication is essential to not only the BCG on an AR, but also to a "Tuned Trigger". The hammer/ trigger/ disconnector engagements must be properly lubricated to assure the longest life possible." Where have we heard this advice before? I have never lubed my hammer, trigger, and disconnector engagement surfaces on a regular basis. All of this being said...How many believe that a quality single stage trigger job of 3 1/2 lbs. to 4 lbs. is appropriate for a "defensive piece", versus limping along with the gritty/ heavy factory triggers, and how long do you think the trigger job should last??? I'll always remember Jeff Cooper saying that "all that is really needed are good sights, and a good trigger". And yes, I know he was talking about the 1911. But, I believe it to be true for any weapon system. Tack |
| Bill did two AR trigger jobs for me. The turnaround was exactly one week. I sent to him using priority mail and got it back the same way. One of the triggers I sent him was really bad (Sometimes had to check just to make sure I disengaged the safety). What I got back was a crisp lighter trigger pull. I highly recommend his work. |
How many "Acoounted For" rounds has anyone put on one of Bill's triggers without any issues such as following, doubling, Full Bursts etc.? I really need some facts from knowledgeable users that keep a log of this type of thing, as I do. Thanks! Tack |
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What is his email? How can I contact him? Website? Phone number? Help anyone? [email protected] |
Anyone have data on this? Tck |
I have close to 5K rounds through mine with a trigger worked over by Bill. Around 3K of those was over the period of about three days in a rifle class last month. I have not had the first issue with mine. |
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No comment on longevity yet, but I just received my two trigger groups back from him. Very fast turnaround for me, less than two weeks from the time I mailed them out. I had him do one 4lb and one 3lb The 4lb trigger is really nice, huge improvement over the stock pull. The 3lb trigger is just amazing, silky smooth and crisp. As nice as some triggers I paid much more for. I was thinking about a Timney for my varminter, now I may just get another 3lb job from Bill (I still want to try the Timney though to compare it to my CMC). |
That is all going to depend on the skill level of the operator and the level of ongoing training. I would surmise that a 3.5 lb. trigger with no takeup is going to be the ABSOLUTE lower limit on a fighting rifle. Why? Why not? That gritty/heavy military trigger is still adequate for 500 yard KD course and less than 3.5# is leaving WAY too much room for an adrenaline induced failure. It's just NOT needed on a service rifle. |
This is your opinion, but if a 3.5# - 4# trigger is good on a 1911, it's even better on an AR. Your shoulder etc, will help with "Adrenaline Rush" on a long arm and if you decide you're going to "Break the Shot" it won't matter if it's 4# or 5# in CQB, but you will notice that "Gritty" trigger on a 200 yard head shot from the same rifle. My application is not for a "Service Rifle". It's for an M4 defensive piece (not a KD course) in the hands of a very skilled operator. This is one of the things that separates the Men from the Boys....trigger control. |
| Bill did one of his standard 4lb trigger jobs for me earlier this year. Tremendous improvement over stock. So far I haven't fired this AR yet, only functioned checked. For reference, it was a DPMS TG/lower and Bill turned around the work in about a week and a half (he had an unusual rush of work. Great guy to deal with! I've sent him another one and plan to send him a third soon. |
The way I understand it as stated in my initial post, Rockwell Hardness of the entire part is the key to good success on any trigger job. This hardness factor applies to all of the part, and not just the surface. Great Gunsmiths have been doing outstanding trigger jobs for decades, and I have had at least 6 on my 1911's that have held up for as long as 30,000 rounds. I would feel that it would be no different for any FCG engagement surface given that you use quality parts to start with including the AR FCG. The many fellows that have posted here about their positive experience with Bill's trigger jobs would appear to support this. Why would you believe that "Conventional Wisdom" dictates that the "Surface Hardness" of the FCG is destroyed by recutting the engagement angles? After the "Cut" or "File" is made, don't you basically just have a new "Surface" that's as hard as the entire part? I'll email Bill and ask him to post his views on this. |
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No. Because in the past the hammer and trigger were only surface hardened. No hardened through and through. So if you stone through the surface hardening then you get down to soft material. This soft stuff would leave you with a great feeling trigger with a very short life span. This was the "conventional wisdom" he speaks of. |
Well then...given that guys are getting severall thousands (>5000) rounds on these trigger jobs, it would appear that the surface is not being damged...wouldn't it? |
He recommends a grease on the engagement surfaces, but that was before LaRue's Machine Gunners Lube came out, and I don;t know if Bill has worked with this much. I have. For a grease, I use Mad Dog XF-7 grease. You can do a search on it and see why. I also use LaRue Machine Gunners lube which is an oil when I'm in the field. This is the slickest compound I've found including SLIP, Militec, Tetra, CLP etc. It's what I use to lube my bolt in between sessions in training every 200 rounds or so. One drop in each the bolt gas holes keeps everything very wet. |
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I heard from Bill Springfield today regarding the most recent posts. He prefers to stay neutral at this point to not take advantage of the forum for advertising. That's just the kind of guy he is. Here is part of hie reply to me about Metal Hardness, lube, my trigger, a FCG that did have problems (as posted originally) etc. Hi Todd, Glad your trigger is doing well. I find todays trigger parts are hardened thru out the entire unit. It maybe true that parts were surface hardened in years past, but casting technology has dramatically changed in the last 20+ years for the better in mass produced parts. As for lube, wow...there are so many brands and types on the market. Its really hard to pick one, use the one that works best for your application. Side note, for the gentleman that had the doubling problem after 5K rounds; I forgot to mention that his disconnector spring was not in the best of shape. It seemed fairly weak; no telling how much use it had before the trigger job. I have also adapted a habit of stoning the disconnector hook if there are rough edges left from the stamping process. Most disconnectors are fully finished, but some are quite rough. After stoning I adjust the disconnector to hammer for maximum safety to minimize any doubling possibilities. I also provide great customer service, if something malfunctions, I'll take care of it. Thanks! Bill I really can't add anything at this point. I believe in Bills work, and am putting my life on it literally every day. I've been around "Serious Weapon Systems" for 25 years or so, and think I do have some credibility after >100,000 rounds down the pipe of 1911, AR's, Tactical Rifles, and 12 GA systems. Should I experience any issues with this trigger group, i won;t hesitate to alert everyone, as I wouldn't;t want anyone to experience a life threatening situation based on my recommendations. |
Use to shoot with Brian in the early 80's. Good guy. Lots of advancements since then. LaRue Tactical are the of the finest Sniper Scope Mounts and QD Mounts for AR Platforms in the world. Check 'em out: www.laruetactical.com. They are the only supplier who's mounts hold 100% repeatability POI/ POA and I've tried them all. |
E-mail him. mailto:[email protected] |
I live in colorado and I would like to know how to get a hold of Bill thanks may be a web site
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Sure he does...this one  .I've been doing my own trigger jobs for a while, talked to bill in another thread some time ago, his pointers really helped me. As for the hardness issue- I cut, stoned, and polished, a hammer & trigger's sear surfaces years ago as my first attempt. 9 years later, they show no change after several thousand rounds. |
Whats his e mail address thanks and may you always ride a good horse
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I posted it here:
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Yes, lube for the engagement surfaces is what I was interested in. Great tip on the LaRue lube, I had not heard of that stuff yet. |
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I have always done my own trigger work, and after all these years I have ZERO failures or any noticeable wear. The thing is when parts are perfectly mated like that, they wer far less than they would otherwise. Think about mainbearings of a polished crankshaft or similar. Then think about your average cast crankshaft, and how soon they wear out bearings. Many of us did our triggers on our .mil weapons, we just never said anything. Guess who had rifles that shot better than the others? |
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Someone mentioned earlier that Bill does trigger jobs on HK firearms.....but only specifically mentioned the MP5. I have a LEM USPc .40....I've already lightened the trigger pull to around 5.5 lbs from the factory 8.5 lbs using a lighter firing pin block spring and trigger return spring. Anyone know if he can do anything with the USP compacts? Thanks, Sean |
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If anyone is on the fence about trying him out or taking the triggger group out, DON"T BE! After reading about Bill's work here, I thought I'd give a try. I liked the idea of smoothing out the pull on a stock trigger, (instead of buying a $150+ assembly)I was just really hesitant to pull the trigger group out. I'm one of those guys that can take things apart, but when putting back together well, either I break something, or it doesn't work right. Well, I went and got a punch and did it following the direction in the build your own thread. it was as easy as taking the upper off. I sent in the trigger group on christmas week-wednesday, and recieved it back on the the 2nd! Wow, is he FAST! Even considering the holidays! It took me about the same amount of time to put the trigger group back in than it did to take out! And now, that I know how easy it was taking out the assembly, I have gained valuable knowledge about how the AR really works. That alone is worthwhile. Slapped my upper back on, did a function check, and what an improvement! No take up, no grttiness, just a smooth 3lb break. I couldn't be more satisified. This is one of the better modifciations to make to any AR, and is an outstanding value for the money. AND you wont be disappointed at all! Thank you Bill, your work speaks for itself! |
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Bills isn't asking that you send the safety also? He put a spot weld on mine so the trigger doesn't move at all in the safety position. I like that. A plug in a different direction because this reminded me: Left handed guys, the safety from Olympic is great. it is machined so that you can insert it from either side. It is a super smooth safety, much better then the gritty POS ambi I had before, and it isn't in the way of your trigger finger. Oly isn't the most popular brand overall, but this safety is a winner. Back on the point, I posted higher in the thread I have 2 of Bills trigger jobs and love them. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bill Springfield Trigger Job Review (Page 1 of 4)
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