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Durkin Tactical Franklin Armory
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11/2/2022 4:30:06 PM
Posted: 11/21/2005 10:19:20 AM EST
missing
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 10:46:49 AM EST
[#1]
tagged
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:00:19 AM EST
[#2]
You're making my head hurt with all that fancy city slicker talk and such!

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:06:05 AM EST
[#3]
Wow, that's the best answer to my earlier thread yet... LOL!!!

Thanks for the info.  
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:08:05 AM EST
[#4]
you destroyed a colt barrel?  wait until the kool-aid drinkers get a hold of you.
<­BR>great post none the less. thanks
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:19:00 AM EST
[#5]
I wish I would have bought one of them SOCOM barrels from Paul when he had them.

Really good price.

Oh, tagged.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:19:09 AM EST
[#6]
What then is used in Bushmaster's 4150 barrels?


p.s. I do not want to hijack this or turn it into a what is better than what thread. I am just curious to know if 11595 is the standard of all barrel manufacturers advertising 4150.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:23:34 AM EST
[#7]
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:27:45 AM EST
[#8]
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:32:16 AM EST
[#9]
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:43:36 AM EST
[#10]
Thanks
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:56:08 AM EST
[#11]
Paul your contributions here are just as good as the products and service you offer. Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:05:30 PM EST
[#12]
This is copied from Bushmasters website.

Bushmaster Barrels... are the finest AR15/M16 type barrels made - machined from Chrome-Moly Vanadium steel - Rockwell C26 to 33 hardened. And we now offer 20"/24" Heavy Barrels in Stainless Steel! Most Bushmaster barrels are hard chrome lined (except the Stainless Steel barrels) to offer corrosion resistance in the bore and chamber. Chrome is more than twice as hard as barrel steel and effectively doubles barrel life with proper care (exactly why the military specifies the process). Chrome’s lubricity (i.e. “slipperiness”) reduces friction, increases velocity, aids in chambering, extraction, and speeds barrel cleaning. Bushmaster barrels are manganese phosphate finished (again except the Stainless) to guard against exterior rust or corrosion, and to provide the matte black, non reflective finish found on quality military arms.


Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:23:52 PM EST
[#13]
a thank you tag.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:01:36 PM EST
[#14]
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:16:27 PM EST
[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
you destroyed a colt barrel?  wait until the kool-aid drinkers get a hold of you.
<­BR>great post none the less. thanks




ya, when they say Destructive Testing (DT) they aren't kidding
img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/barrelpieces.jpg



Shit man, that will buff out.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:20:59 PM EST
[#16]
Molly is a girl's name.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:25:34 PM EST
[#17]
She used to polish my vanadium till it shined like chrome!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:42:57 PM EST
[#18]
Interesting.  I use a Leco Glow Discharge Spectrometer at work.  They are normally used by foundries and other secondary metal manufacturers, I have never heard of an independent lab using one.

I am trying to see how the people here are equating the CrMoV steel we see in the barrel to 4150?  AISI 4150 specs make no allowance for intentional vanadium additions.  To me, we have just learned that the AR-15 TDP probably does not, despite years of believing the contrary, call out 4150 steel.  It apparently calls for a specified CrMoV.  Just because that steel appears in the spec beside 4150 doesn't make it related to 4150.

I also get the feeling that some people believe a barrel has to follow this specification to be "mil-spec".  That is not the case.  The MIL standards contain many specifications for steels, this is just one of them.  MIL-S-46047, for example, also contains specs for bars for making of small arms barrels.  It describes another CrMoV steel very similar to the one we see here, but with higher chromium and molybdenum contents.  There may well be more such standards.  What these specs mean is that if your drawings call for 4150 for ordnance applications, you must buy 4150 that follows MIL-B-11595.  It does not mean that if you are designing a barrel, you are forced to choose from one of these three steels.

It is important to remember the following, taken from the MIL-R-63997B:

3 . 2 M a t e r i a l s a n d c o n s t r u c t i o n . R i f l e s a n d p a r t s s h a l l
conform to the materials and construction requirements specified
herein, on Drawing 9349000 and drawings applicable thereto, and
be in accordance with the applicable materials and construction
provisions of MIL-w-13855.


In other words, the barrels are to be made out of what the blueprints say, and the whole library of  MILSPECS don't mean squat.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:44:13 PM EST
[#19]
Good thread Paul!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:46:16 PM EST
[#20]
Thanks for the education!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:59:41 PM EST
[#21]
Good read.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 6:19:31 PM EST
[#22]
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 6:22:14 PM EST
[#23]
tagged for ref.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 6:46:42 PM EST
[#24]
Paul. that is outstsanding. I wish someone in hte alloy indistry can give us a definet answer to what the test results indicate in terms of the standards they abide to.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 7:14:33 PM EST
[#25]
Great, now the 4150 Mil Spec purists will be spouting off about chrome moly vanadium!
Link Posted: 11/22/2005 8:09:10 PM EST
[#26]

Quoted:
Interesting.  I use a Leco Glow Discharge Spectrometer at work.  They are normally used by foundries and other secondary metal manufacturers, I have never heard of an independent lab using one.

I am trying to see how the people here are equating the CrMoV steel we see in the barrel to 4150?  AISI 4150 specs make no allowance for intentional vanadium additions.  To me, we have just learned that the AR-15 TDP probably does not, despite years of believing the contrary, call out 4150 steel.  It apparently calls for a specified CrMoV.  Just because that steel appears in the spec beside 4150 doesn't make it related to 4150.

I also get the feeling that some people believe a barrel has to follow this specification to be "mil-spec".  That is not the case.  The MIL standards contain many specifications for steels, this is just one of them.  MIL-S-46047, for example, also contains specs for bars for making of small arms barrels.  It describes another CrMoV steel very similar to the one we see here, but with higher chromium and molybdenum contents.  There may well be more such standards.  What these specs mean is that if your drawings call for 4150 for ordnance applications, you must buy 4150 that follows MIL-B-11595.  It does not mean that if you are designing a barrel, you are forced to choose from one of these three steels.

It is important to remember the following, taken from the MIL-R-63997B:

3 . 2 M a t e r i a l s a n d c o n s t r u c t i o n . R i f l e s a n d p a r t s s h a l l
conform to the materials and construction requirements specified
herein, on Drawing 9349000 and drawings applicable thereto, and
be in accordance with the applicable materials and construction
provisions of MIL-w-13855.


In other words, the barrels are to be made out of what the blueprints say, and the whole library of  MILSPECS don't mean squat.



Thank you... I have tried to get this across before, the 11595 spec can be one of several steels that meet a range of specifcations and are in 2" or less dia bar stock.

I have posted barrel info on here that was read directly from the TDP and still have been told that I was wrong? BTW: The TDP specifies a specific barrel material for the M4.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 3:11:18 AM EST
[#27]
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 3:20:51 AM EST
[#28]
I read somewhere 4150 steel was used for M14 barrels way back..is this true?just trying to get a reference point when they started requireing this steel.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 3:43:38 AM EST
[#29]
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 3:47:47 AM EST
[#30]

Quoted:
I read somewhere 4150 steel was used for M14 barrels way back..is this true?just trying to get a reference point when they started requireing this steel.



It way have been, maybe not... what BattleRifle is trying to say is that a milspec like 11595 does not specify a specific steel, it gives a range of criteria that a steel must fall within to be "Mil-Spec", the 11595 is a generic ordnance steel for gun barrels -- is is not the only one however.

The bottom line is that Tech Data Package (TDP) is the drawings, blueprints and detailed specifications for a particular piece of equipment, like the M4 and the TDP often states very secific requirements for what materials are used and how they are machined, tested and finished. A piece of equipment is milspec only if it made to the exact specifications of the TDP.

I have the TDP for the M4 and can tell you that a great deal of the speculation people post of here is not accurate... but then, is that really a surprise? Here's the deal, nearly all of the barrels that are made by any of the names you have ever heard of are fine for what anyone on this board is going to do with it. If your need is greater, than someone that has the ability to, will buy and issue you the real deal.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 8:28:55 AM EST
[#31]
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 8:39:17 AM EST
[#32]
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 11:49:50 AM EST
[#33]
This should be tacked.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 6:06:26 PM EST
[#34]

Quoted:
I read somewhere 4150 steel was used for M14 barrels way back..is this true?just trying to get a reference point when they started requireing this steel.



I was unable to find anything in the Collector Grade book, US Rifle M14, concerning what, exactly, the M14 barrel is made of.  But, in his time-honoured work, The Book Of The Garand, J.S. Hatcher states:
"The material used in the barrels of the M1 rifle is WD Steel No. 4150 Modified."  He then prints a chart that gives a composition that very significantly overlaps the chemistry for ORD 4150 resulphurized shown at the very start of this thread.  The Garand, for those that do not know, entered mass production in 1937.

I found some more interesting clues on the evolution of barrel materials in the pages of The Black Rifle.  In the section on the AR-10, a Lt.Col. Rayle is quoted extensively on the Aberdeen tests of this rifle, including the incidence of the AR-10 bursting its composite barrel in January, 1957.  He mentions that after the barrel burst, Springfield Armory referred Stoner to Dave Mathewson, a machinist who was often subcontracted by the Armory to do prototype work.  Mathewson worked over a weekend to make replacement barrels for the AR-10s out of T44 barrel blanks (the T44 was the design that was eventually adopted as the M14 about a month later).  Rayle also points out that by this time the Armory "had developed through extensive research, a good military barrel steel of a chromium-molybdenum-vanadium alloy type, which withstood rather high barrel tempertures without rupturing."
So M14 barrels may have been made of 4150, like the Garand it was derived from, or they may have been made of CrMoV steel, which sounds like it was the Armory's darling at the time.
It also sounds like Stoner was introduced to CrMoV barrel steel because of the incidence of the AR10 barrel burst, and he likely stuck with it from that point on.  He was probably understandably shy about the topic of barrels bursting in heavy use, and wanted to avoid it all costs.
Link Posted: 11/23/2005 7:20:59 PM EST
[#35]

Quoted:
This should be tacked.



+1

Thanks for the info!
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 1:58:13 PM EST
[#36]
tag
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:20:59 PM EST
[#37]
Great info, let's get this one tacked!
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:42:13 PM EST
[#38]
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:38:03 AM EST
[#39]
Does this mean the 4140 RRA uses is ( may ) be MilSpec, and as good as 4150 Bushy lovers say?

H
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:51:59 AM EST
[#40]
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