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Posted: 6/12/2003 5:49:42 AM EDT
Ok, here's the deal: My goal was to have a very good home defense/SHTF weapon. So, of course, I got an AR. This is what I got:
14.5" 1 in 7 chrome lined barrel, forged lower, TA01NSN, KAC 300m BUIS. Then I thought, I need another rifle - quick - in case this one fails. A BUR (Back-Up Rifle). So I got the same thing - flattop - but no optics/sights (other than the fixed front post) yet. I had orginially planed on going with an Aimpoint M2 with the new ARMS forward mount and a BUIS. And this would probably still be my plan, but I'm having some serious reservations about droping $500 on optics for a secondary rifle. So now I'm thinking about the new LMT fixed rear sight (ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=23&t=113106. Or a removable carry handle, or the ARMS #40. I'm leaning towards the LMT (if Wes still has them). So what are your opinions? Anyone have experience with the LMT, or have a secondary rifle and went through a similar thought process? I know Aimpoints rock, but money is an issue (especially after the ACOG  ).
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:05:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Seriously I'd sell the NSN ACOG and get 2 Aimpoints (one for each rifle).
ACOGs with BAC are fine for SHTF rifle, and the NSN model is a nice squad marksman optic. However, most gunfights are going to be in close and over in a hurry - you need a fast optic. Like an Aimpoint, EO Tech, or BAC equipped ACOG. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:20:46 AM EDT
[#2]
EO Tech w/ standard ret.
Damm fast down side is the need for batt. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 7:46:44 AM EDT
[#3]
I'd put a carryhandle on it for now and guy an aimpoint later.
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Posted: 6/12/2003 11:05:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Seriously I'd sell the NSN ACOG and get 2 Aimpoints (one for each rifle). We have a winner! Chuck, tell him what he's won... [:)] -Troy |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 11:23:54 AM EDT
[#5]
I'd put iron sights on both. Sell the ACOG and buy lots of ammo. But that's just me. For the application you are talking about, all you need is a simple, foolproof rifle. Iron sights are the way to go. I'd avoid electroincs and batteries like the plague.
If you really look at the photos from overseas, the vast majority of the troops are armed with 20" iron sighted M16's. It's only the very few special forces folks with highly specialized mission requirements who have the optics and 15 pounds of other crap hanging off their carbines. In a house, a 14.5" or shorter barrel makes more sense than a 20". Magnified optics make no sense. A weapon mounted light is a good idea for target ID. Other than that, not much is required. I'm not bound by the Geneva Convention, so I don't have to be limited to just military ammo. There are hollowpoints and softpoints that are much more effective. Add a sling or carry strap and you are good to go! |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 3:03:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I'd avoid electroincs and batteries like the plague. You'd also be avoiding the ability to fight effectively at night and in low light. Since a high number of gunfights occur under those conditions I'll take an optic that will improve my chances. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 3:05:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Damm fast down side is the need for batt. The good news is the newer EO Techs (rev E and better) can use NiH rechargable AA batteries (250hr life) as well as the standard alkalines. |
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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:41:10 PM EDT
[#8]
for a back-up-rifle, i really do think it should be simple. my point being that you went to the back-up cuz you're having some technical problems with the first one. how about a carbine with tritium sights? 16" or less barrel, A2 stock, not much that could go wrong with that thing. i intend to build exactly that as a back-up... a no-frills shooter.
K.I.S.S |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 4:22:09 AM EDT
[#9]
whisky-echo:
You have come the closest to what I was thinking. No frills, nothing to really fail, as I would only resort to this rifle if something on my primary weapon (i.e., the ACOG) were to fail me. As far at the ACOG is concerned on the primary weapon: I went with this after much deliberation and much research. The guys in Afgan & Iraq have had very good things to say about the ACOG and specifically refer to the benefit of having a magnified optic. Tatijana (sp?) on this board has also touted the benefits of a magnified sight for a lone actor in a SHTF situation. In my house, the BUIS on top of the ACOG (though I know they have been ridiculed by many) are accurate enough at the distances I would be shooting - well under 20 feet [i]within the confines of my home[/i]. Outside of my home - in the fields (I'm a country boy) - I like the magnification. Thus the TA01NSN. If money were no object, I would get a BUIS and an Aimpoint for a third rifle [;)] . |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:17:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: . The guys in Afgan & Iraq have had very good things to say about the ACOG and specifically refer to the benefit of having a magnified optic. Yes but that was in relation to having buddies around with M68s for the QCB stuff. They guys with the ACOGs were the 'marksmen' of the squad. Tatijana (sp?) on this board has also touted the benefits of a magnified sight for a lone actor in a SHTF situation. Many of us do (myself included) that is why if you must have magnification you should have an optic with BAC. Note Tatjana, Brouhaha, F4YR, New-ARGUY, and myself all use ACOGs with the BAC feature. |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:39:27 AM EDT
[#11]
MY THINKING IS THAT A "BACK-UP" RIFLE SHOULD BE IDENTICAL IN EVERY RESPECT TO YOUR PRIMARY. OTHERWISE, IT'S REALLY NOT A BACK-UP. IT'S DIFFERENT, A SECOND GUN. THAT MAY BE OK. IT MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT MISSION.
IF YOU'RE SERIOUS, YOU SHOULD HAVE TWO IDENTICAL PRIMARY WEAPONS - RIFLE, AND TWO IDENTICAL SECONDARY WEAPONS - PISTOL. I KNOW, IT GETS EXPENSIVE. THE LEWIS MACHINE AND TOOL FIXED BUIS IS THE MOST STOUT GOING AND IN USE BY MANY ON OUR NATION'S VARSITY TEAMS AT THE MOMENT. I SELL THEM. BUT IT IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A CHOPPED CARRY HANDLE. JUST LOTS NEATER LOOKING. MY THINKING IS THAT AS GREAT AN OPTIC AS THE TA01NSN IS, A PERSONAL FAVORITE OF MINE, IT HAS NO PLACE ON A CQB WEAPON, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE THE SOLO GOOD GUY. (IF YOU'VE GOT MORE THAN THREE GUYS, THE FOURTH SHOULD HAVE SOME PRECISION CAPABILITY.) THE AIMPOINT POSSESSES SUFFICIENT ACCURACY TO DO ANYTHING YOU NEED TO DO FROM ARMS LENGTH TO 200 YARDS. ONLY AT 200 YARDS DOES THE ACOG BEGIN TO HAVE AN ADVANTAGE IN TERMS OF SPEED OF ENGAGEMENT. ASSUMING YOU'RE A LAW-ABIDING CIVILIAN, WHICH I'M SURE ALL OF YOU ARE, THE CRITERIA OF PROXIMITY, MEANS, AND INTENT MUST BE SATISFIED BEFORE YOU CAN DEFENSIVELY ENGAGE YOUR ADVERSARIES. BAD GUYS ARE NOT "IN SEASON", AN IMMINENT THREAT, AT A DISTANCE. YOU CAN'T PREEMPTIVELY POP A CAP IN THEIR ASS JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HIT THEM. BUT AT RANGES WHERE MOST MORTALS ARE A THREAT, NOTHING IS AS FAST AS AN AIMPOINT. (OK, MY SECOND CHOICE WOULD BE AN EOTHING. SATISFIED, SMG LEE?!?) WHY DO I SAY THIS ABOUT THE AIMPOINT? I'VE WATCHED AND PARTICIPATED IN INTRA-UNIT COMPETITION AT MID-SOUTH INSTITUTE ON ONE OF THE RIFLE RANGES WHERE THE REACTIVE STEEL TARGETS RANGE FROM 50 YARDS TO 200 YARDS. WE'RE TALKING 20+ STEEL TARGETS THAT HAVE TO BE HIT AND KNOCKED DOWN. SKILLED SHOOTERS WITH AIMPOINTS ALWAYS POST THE LOWEST TIMES. WHY? SPEED OF TARGET ACQUISITION. IN BAD LIGHT CONDITIONS, ESPECIALLY, THE AIMPOINT SO EFFECTIVELY CRUSHES IRON SIGHTS THAT NOBODY RUNS JUST IRONS ANY MORE. NOBODY HIGH SPEED, THAT IS. WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:43:22 AM EDT
[#12]
Damn you, Wes! Ok, I guess I'm gonna have to keep socking away the change for an Aimpoint. But I still love my TA01NSN!
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Posted: 6/13/2003 7:12:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: BAD GUYS ARE NOT "IN SEASON", AN IMMINENT THREAT, AT A DISTANCE. YOU CAN'T PREEMPTIVELY POP A CAP IN THEIR ASS JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HIT THEM. Ahhh, dammit. [banghead] Crap! Thats just not fair! Seriously, I have been an iron sight shooter all my life. I am fairly fast with irons and have held my own against guys with Acogs and such. I finally put a flat top together with an Aimpoint on it. Took me 2 months to ever get the courage up to actually use it in our FDCC shoots. Once I did though, I was blown away at its speed. Long story short, I am hooked on Aimpoints. Big time. As Wes said, past 200, Acogs take over and run. Inside that, Aimpoints are truly great. (So are BAC Acogs though, not to sound as if they arent) |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 12:08:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Amen, Wes, amen!
-Troy |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 12:36:19 PM EDT
[#15]
I love it when Wes shares knowledge [:D]
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Posted: 6/13/2003 12:42:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I love it when Wes shares knowledge [:D] [headbang] |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 10:08:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Not a whole lot more to be said after Wes.
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Posted: 6/13/2003 11:36:23 PM EDT
[#18]
I got rid of my ACOG and got an Aimpoint and a Surefire M900 from Wes.
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