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Posted: 1/13/2015 2:38:40 PM EDT
[#1]
chf will last longer, button rifled MIGHT be more accurate.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 2:41:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Cold hammer forged every day and twice on Sunday! Those are really fantastic barrels. They (along with CBI) are certainly an exception to the general rule of "chrome lined barrels aren't very accurate." I'm really glad Palmetto has made these available so cheap. It used to be Noveske was the only one using FN CHF machine gun steel barrels, and they wanted buku bucks for them.
ETA: hammer forged barrels are generally more accurate than button rifled ones. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 2:53:25 PM EDT
[#3]
I personally stick to bcm, but unless you are a target shooter, I'd go with psa
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:00:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cold hammer forged every day and twice on Sunday! Those are really fantastic barrels. They (along with CBI) are certainly an exception to the general rule of "chrome lined barrels aren't very accurate." I'm really glad Palmetto has made these available so cheap. It used to be Noveske was the only one using FN CHF machine gun steel barrels, and they wanted buku bucks for them. ETA: hammer forged barrels are generally more accurate than button rifled ones.  You got some proof to back up that claim? Hammer forged barrels are generally cheaper to manufacturer, and they've been marketed to be the best darn barrels on the planet. Many, like myself, don't buy that marketing. I'm not saying CHF barrels are not high-quality, but I do not feel they are worth the extra cost when compared to equally spec'd button rifled barrel, made from the same materials. Since they are both chrome-lined, I'd say accuracy wise there are going to be very similar. From Molon's barrel tests, the most accurate chrome-lined NATO chambered barrel he tested was a button rifled Colt... Quoted: The barrel on the Colt 6721 is the most accurate "off the shelf" chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrel that I've tested. http://www.box.net/shared/static/5v2ke9eaym.jpg ETA: And, I'll add that the Colt SOCOM barrel Molon tested beat out all of the non SS Noveske barrels he tested. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:03:01 PM EDT
[#5]
I've shot a handfull of CHF BCM barrels and they smoke a Colt or BCM standard button rifled barrel in the accuracy dept every time.
The only Colt I've had that would hand with a BCM bfh barrel was a 14.5" SOCOM barrel. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:27:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Accuracy.....is probably barrel to barrel. I highly doubt you will see a difference one chrome lined barrel to another.
These anecdotal stories are irrelevant and can be misleading, so take them with a grain of salt. As for longevity, the Filthy 14 did, what, 40k+ rounds without cleaning and still kept going without key-holeing? It was a standard BCM barrel. The big advantage to a CHF barrel is its ability to reduce flex under heat or high round count. This isn't really quantifiable. Most of it is marketing and there is very little quantifiable difference between the two techniques to the end user. All being equal, I would take a CHF barrel for the perceived improvements. ....but getting a CHF chrome lined barrel for accuracy is like getting a stainless barrel for longevity....you might be doin' it wrong. ETA: my last ar purchase was a DD CHF pencil barrel for a PSA upper I had lying around. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:50:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cold hammer forged every day and twice on Sunday! Those are really fantastic barrels. They (along with CBI) are certainly an exception to the general rule of "chrome lined barrels aren't very accurate." I'm really glad Palmetto has made these available so cheap. It used to be Noveske was the only one using FN CHF machine gun steel barrels, and they wanted buku bucks for them. ETA: hammer forged barrels are generally more accurate than button rifled ones. I am a fan of CHF barrels, but have never seen proof, or even theory as to why they are more accurate than button rifling. I don't know where this thought came from but without proof it is just a rumor. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:54:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accuracy.....is probably barrel to barrel. I highly doubt you will see a difference one chrome lined barrel to another. These anecdotal stories are irrelevant and can be misleading, so take them with a grain of salt. As for longevity, the Filthy 14 did, what, 40k+ rounds without cleaning and still kept going without key-holeing? It was a standard BCM barrel. The big advantage to a CHF barrel is its ability to reduce flex under heat or high round count. This isn't really quantifiable. Most of it is marketing and there is very little quantifiable difference between the two techniques to the end user. All being equal, I would take a CHF barrel for the perceived improvements. ....but getting a CHF chrome lined barrel for accuracy is like getting a stainless barrel for longevity....you might be doin' it wrong. ETA: my last ar purchase was a DD CHF pencil barrel for a PSA upper I had lying around. +10. Well put, i felt the exact same way when the Molon review of the SOCOM barrel made it "the" barrel to have here for a bit. Generally speaking the O.P would doing well with either barrel. Between the choices listed by the O.P, I would go with the better deal. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 3:56:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accuracy.....is probably barrel to barrel. I highly doubt you will see a difference one chrome lined barrel to another. These anecdotal stories are irrelevant and can be misleading, so take them with a grain of salt. As for longevity, the Filthy 14 did, what, 40k+ rounds without cleaning and still kept going without key-holeing? It was a standard BCM barrel. The big advantage to a CHF barrel is its ability to reduce flex under heat or high round count. This isn't really quantifiable. Most of it is marketing and there is very little quantifiable difference between the two techniques to the end user. All being equal, I would take a CHF barrel for the perceived improvements. ....but getting a CHF chrome lined barrel for accuracy is like getting a stainless barrel for longevity....you might be doin' it wrong. ETA: my last ar purchase was a DD CHF pencil barrel for a PSA upper I had lying around. Excellent post. I have heard of favorable properties of CHF barrels under high heat (actually have only read it here), but if your barrel is that hot then the type of shooting your doing is going to offset the difference in barrel properties by an order of magnitude. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:14:21 PM EDT
[#10]
I know CHF barrels take chromelining more evenly I had CHF barrels shoot great and button rifled shoot great i can put rounds in a 6" circle at 50 and 100 I dont care about small groups just being accurate enough off hand to stop a man sized target
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:26:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+10. Well put, i felt the exact same way when the Molon review of the SOCOM barrel made it "the" barrel to have here for a bit. Generally speaking the O.P would doing well with either barrel. Between the choices listed by the O.P, I would go with the better deal. The RO921HB barrel is still "the" barrel to have for me. 
Love the profile, and actually prefer the weight to lightweight barrels, the nose-heavy posture makes it easier to "drive" for me - though it is, of course, not without its downsides - but that's not really what this thread is about. 
OP - CHF and button rifling are just different manufacturing processes - ARFCOMers will argue all day and night about which process is better - but really, in terms of deciding between barrels that otherwise appear identical, it's probably pretty low down on the list of decisive factors. If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it. ~Augee |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:39:23 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it.
~Augee The PSA upper is definitely cheaper but with the free BCG from Bravo Company, it is a lot closer. Basically, after adding a good BCG, I'd save around $85 - 100 going with the PSA. I'd be looking at it as a free QD mount for the T-1 if I go with the PSA vs. a handguard I like a bit better on the BCM. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:49:09 PM EDT
[#13]
This was posted by Phreakish (Lead Engineer, Designer @ BCM) on TOS regarding Button Rifle VS. CHF:
button vs hammer forged: "steel is steel" and so the expansion, all things being equal, will be about the same. That said, the cold hammer forge process creates what we call residual stress. Basically, the steel is still under pressure once it's finished. For an applied load, the actual stress of the material starts from a negative (verus zero), and therefore can take much more load prior to hitting yield. How much more is highly dependent on many variables. This is especially true for the bore, where the vast majority of the cold work, and therefore the residual stress, is retained. We effectively create a barrel that has a stronger-than-normal (even though hardness is still close to the same) liner with a considerable wall thickness. The grain of the metal will also be refined and we'd expect to see long grains (since barrel blanks start short and end long) on the surface which are tightly packed together. The impact it has on overall expansion should be minimal, and given that the residual stress state is fairly uniform from end-to-end, we wouldn't expect to see any warpage when heated versus if the profile were less than uniform. We still have the same effects from other discontinuities, but all things equal the forged barrel still has the strength advantage with the residual stresses. The tighter grain structure also gives a superior surface for applying chrome and the higher quality surface will resist corrosion better due to the tightly packed grains (similar to the corrosion inhibition seen on polished surfaces, even when untreated). These are the major benefits of the hammer forged barrels: they resist wear better due to the residual stresses and better surface finish and the hard chrome tends to lay itself down in a more uniform and dense coating which increases the benefits offered by the chrome. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:50:07 PM EDT
[#14]
I am amazed at the accuracy of the CHF PSA barrel. Used 24.5 Varget on 75 Hdy Match bullets for groups that touch at 50 meters (best was a .19" 3 shot). I didn't expect it to shoot as well as my bull barreled match barrels in a standard contour middy.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 5:54:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The PSA upper is definitely cheaper but with the free BCG from Bravo Company, it is a lot closer. Basically, after adding a good BCG, I'd save around $85 - 100 going with the PSA. I'd be looking at it as a free QD mount for the T-1 if I go with the PSA vs. a handguard I like a bit better on the BCM. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it.
~Augee The PSA upper is definitely cheaper but with the free BCG from Bravo Company, it is a lot closer. Basically, after adding a good BCG, I'd save around $85 - 100 going with the PSA. I'd be looking at it as a free QD mount for the T-1 if I go with the PSA vs. a handguard I like a bit better on the BCM. I thought you were asking about stripped barrels. If they're assembled upper packages you're asking about, I'd say you have a lot more to base this decision on than how the barrel was manufactured - I'd go ahead and post up the links to the two you're looking at and edit the thread title. The real question sounds like whether between the BCG and handguard, the BCM is worth $85-$100 more, which is largely going to come down to personal preferences. ~Augee |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 6:23:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You got some proof to back up that claim? Hammer forged barrels are generally cheaper to manufacturer, and they've been marketed to be the best darn barrels on the planet. Many, like myself, don't buy that marketing. I'm not saying CHF barrels are not high-quality, but I do not feel they are worth the extra cost when compared to equally spec'd button rifled barrel, made from the same materials. Since they are both chrome-lined, I'd say accuracy wise there are going to be very similar. From Molon's barrel tests, the most accurate chrome-lined NATO chambered barrel he tested was a button rifled Colt... Quoted: [div style='text-indent: 0px; background-color: rgb(213, 212, 213);']The barrel on the Colt 6721 is the most accurate "off the shelf" chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrel that I've tested. http://www.box.net/shared/static/5v2ke9eaym.jpg ETA: And, I'll add that the Colt SOCOM barrel Molon tested beat out all of the non SS Noveske barrels he tested. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cold hammer forged every day and twice on Sunday! Those are really fantastic barrels. They (along with CBI) are certainly an exception to the general rule of "chrome lined barrels aren't very accurate." I'm really glad Palmetto has made these available so cheap. It used to be Noveske was the only one using FN CHF machine gun steel barrels, and they wanted buku bucks for them. ETA: hammer forged barrels are generally more accurate than button rifled ones.
You got some proof to back up that claim? Hammer forged barrels are generally cheaper to manufacturer, and they've been marketed to be the best darn barrels on the planet. Many, like myself, don't buy that marketing. I'm not saying CHF barrels are not high-quality, but I do not feel they are worth the extra cost when compared to equally spec'd button rifled barrel, made from the same materials. Since they are both chrome-lined, I'd say accuracy wise there are going to be very similar. From Molon's barrel tests, the most accurate chrome-lined NATO chambered barrel he tested was a button rifled Colt... Quoted: [div style='text-indent: 0px; background-color: rgb(213, 212, 213);']The barrel on the Colt 6721 is the most accurate "off the shelf" chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrel that I've tested. http://www.box.net/shared/static/5v2ke9eaym.jpg ETA: And, I'll add that the Colt SOCOM barrel Molon tested beat out all of the non SS Noveske barrels he tested. This ^^^^ Hammer Forgings were not developed with regards to accuracy in mind but more for speed in manufacture and durability, ie: machine gun steel. Chrome lining while great for corrosion resistance does nothing for accuracy either. They obviously can be very accurate but there are better choices if accuracy is paramount on your list. Modern finishes what they are, Nitride may be a better option. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 6:33:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
The real question sounds like whether between the BCG and handguard, the BCM is worth $85-$100 more, which is largely going to come down to personal preferences. ~Augee The BCG is a wash because I'll just order one from BCM. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm-bolt-carrier-group-auto-mp.htm The handguards are similar and both meet my requirements. The KMR 15" is definitely lighter than the 15" SQR Hybrid but not enough to worry me. The KMR would cost me about $50 more if I were to buy it separately, however. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR15-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr-15-556-blk.htm http://www.cimtactical.com/product/15-slim-quad-rail-sqr/ I'm really just trying to go with the old standard of spending my money on the barrel, trigger and BCG. The trigger is an ALG Combat no matter what. My BCG is BCM, no matter what. I wanted a slim handguard with a full rail on top and either a KeyMod/M-Lok system or abbreviated side rails for attaching a light .... either fits the bill. I am looking for a light Recce but it doesn't have to be sub-6lbs. I can live with an extra few ounces. This exercise for me has become pretty much all about the barrel. The barrels are the PSA (FN) CHF Ultra Light Weight or the BCM Standard Enhanced Light Weight. Although I am a huge BCM fanboy, it really doesn't matter all that much to me if my upper and/or my handguard has BCM stamped on it, though. I already have the free hat. 
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Posted: 1/13/2015 7:29:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The RO921HB barrel is still "the" barrel to have for me.
Love the profile, and actually prefer the weight to lightweight barrels, the nose-heavy posture makes it easier to "drive" for me - though it is, of course, not without its downsides - but that's not really what this thread is about.
OP - CHF and button rifling are just different manufacturing processes - ARFCOMers will argue all day and night about which process is better - but really, in terms of deciding between barrels that otherwise appear identical, it's probably pretty low down on the list of decisive factors. If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it. ~Augee Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
+10. Well put, i felt the exact same way when the Molon review of the SOCOM barrel made it "the" barrel to have here for a bit. Generally speaking the O.P would doing well with either barrel. Between the choices listed by the O.P, I would go with the better deal. The RO921HB barrel is still "the" barrel to have for me.
Love the profile, and actually prefer the weight to lightweight barrels, the nose-heavy posture makes it easier to "drive" for me - though it is, of course, not without its downsides - but that's not really what this thread is about.
OP - CHF and button rifling are just different manufacturing processes - ARFCOMers will argue all day and night about which process is better - but really, in terms of deciding between barrels that otherwise appear identical, it's probably pretty low down on the list of decisive factors. If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it. ~Augee Thats fine, your choice. It would be my choice also... if it was the better deal. I have 2 CHF PSA barrels that are sub-moa capable with factory loads. That being said, if SOCOM barrels had been cheaper at the time i would have SOCOM barrels in their place. |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 7:36:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Colt barrel are what....
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:04:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Colt barrel are what.... I have never seen a SOCOM barrel for sale but I have seen the complete uppers sell from the low $700's to the mid $800's, if thats what you are asking |
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Posted: 1/13/2015 8:07:37 PM EDT
[#21]
A site we cannot name has Colt SOCOM barrels for $280.
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Posted: 1/13/2015 11:47:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats fine, your choice. It would be my choice also... if it was the better deal. I have 2 CHF PSA barrels that are sub-moa capable with factory loads. That being said, if SOCOM barrels had been cheaper at the time i would have SOCOM barrels in their place. At the time I bought most of my barrels, PSA wasn't even on the map, and the BCM "SOCOM" barrel would be out of stock for over a year at a time.
I picked up deals on RO921HB barrels, and just used my last "loose" barrel for a build recently. At the time they were the only barrels being offered in carbine gas 14.5" MIL-SPEC steel, chrome lined, 1/7-1/8 in that profile.
~Augee |
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Posted: 1/14/2015 12:03:25 AM EDT
[#23]
why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels?
apples to apples kinda thing? |
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Posted: 1/14/2015 12:34:16 AM EDT
[#24]
I have a 20" CHF 410SS 1:8 223 Wylde PSA/FN barrel that shoots 3/4" groups at 100 yards. My 16" DD CHF LW barrel and 18" CHF CL 1:8 223 Wylde PSA/FN both shoot 1" at 100 yards. CHF done right is 1 moa, maybe better. PSA is a good value, but BCM is offering complete uppers for the same price they were before. Get which ever barrel is a better deal.
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Posted: 1/14/2015 3:29:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 9:56:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. this is mostly true, my issue with psa is that it's a crap shoot and the numbers game gets you. you buy 3 uppers and the 4th is out of spec, same on lowers or lpk that missing parts. I feel if I went with BCM, I'd have qc that warrants the extra cost....imho |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 10:16:20 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accuracy.....is probably barrel to barrel. I highly doubt you will see a difference one chrome lined barrel to another. These anecdotal stories are irrelevant and can be misleading, so take them with a grain of salt. As for longevity, the Filthy 14 did, what, 40k+ rounds without cleaning and still kept going without key-holeing? It was a standard BCM barrel. The big advantage to a CHF barrel is its ability to reduce flex under heat or high round count. This isn't really quantifiable. Most of it is marketing and there is very little quantifiable difference between the two techniques to the end user. All being equal, I would take a CHF barrel for the perceived improvements. ....but getting a CHF chrome lined barrel for accuracy is like getting a stainless barrel for longevity....you might be doin' it wrong. ETA: my last ar purchase was a DD CHF pencil barrel for a PSA upper I had lying around. The "real" advantage of a CHF barrel is the cheaper manufacture of it, which is rather odd as most charge more for them, lol. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 10:19:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Alert me when CHF barrels win at Camp Perry or when Kreiger stops broach cutting their premier barrels and goes the CHF process.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 10:59:40 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alert me when CHF barrels win at Camp Perry or when Kreiger stops broach cutting their premier barrels and goes the CHF process. Honestly, someone buying a chrome lined barrel will not notice a difference in accuracy or longevity between quality examples of either manufacturing process. People talk about accuracy, then buy a rifle made for combat, and buy bulk ammo. Unless you handload, and have a rifle that weighs 15 lbs, and shoot from benchrest style one or two piece rests, BUY THE LESS EXPENSIVE QUALITY OPTION.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 12:50:37 PM EDT
[#30]
BCM>PSA
There is really no argument there. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 12:55:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. BCM independently certifies their parts. PSA does not. BCM has a near 50% reject rate. PSA does not. FN USA manufacturers components for BCM, this has been established but not fully verified. When BCM rejects the parts, do they just go in a dumpster, or back to FN USA? What does FN USA do with the rejects? We can get into their respective shipping departments, but I think you understand what I'm getting at. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 1:30:29 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm new to AR's. I chose the BCM standard 16" cmv upper over the PSA chf upper. Part of the reason was the free bolt carrier. Another reason was the lifetime warranty on the BCM. At the time I was going to buy a spikes bcg so price wise it was about a wash. From what I read the quality control is better with BCM also. The story about the filthy fourteen just cinched it for me.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 1:31:37 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm new to AR's. I chose the BCM standard 16" cmv upper over the PSA chf upper. Part of the reason was the free bolt carrier. Another reason was the lifetime warranty on the BCM. At the time I was going to buy a spikes bcg so price wise it was about a wash. From what I read the quality control is better with BCM also. The story about the filthy fourteen just cinched it for me.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 1:43:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The RO921HB barrel is still "the" barrel to have for me.
Love the profile, and actually prefer the weight to lightweight barrels, the nose-heavy posture makes it easier to "drive" for me - though it is, of course, not without its downsides - but that's not really what this thread is about.
OP - CHF and button rifling are just different manufacturing processes - ARFCOMers will argue all day and night about which process is better - but really, in terms of deciding between barrels that otherwise appear identical, it's probably pretty low down on the list of decisive factors. If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it. ~Augee Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
+10. Well put, i felt the exact same way when the Molon review of the SOCOM barrel made it "the" barrel to have here for a bit. Generally speaking the O.P would doing well with either barrel. Between the choices listed by the O.P, I would go with the better deal. The RO921HB barrel is still "the" barrel to have for me.
Love the profile, and actually prefer the weight to lightweight barrels, the nose-heavy posture makes it easier to "drive" for me - though it is, of course, not without its downsides - but that's not really what this thread is about.
OP - CHF and button rifling are just different manufacturing processes - ARFCOMers will argue all day and night about which process is better - but really, in terms of deciding between barrels that otherwise appear identical, it's probably pretty low down on the list of decisive factors. If they're the same profile, most of it, I suspect, is generally going to come down to price, how fast you want it, and whom you want to deal with if you have a problem with it. ~Augee +1 on the RO921HB Barrel. They are my favorite barrel to include my Noveske, LMT, FNMI, Rainier Arms Utra Match, and even RO921 standard profile barrels. I have three of them, and will buy a few extras for future builds. I will say that my old issued AUG was a hell of lot lighter than even the 6520 I was given for awhile until it was replaced by an M-4. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 1:45:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was posted by Phreakish (Lead Engineer, Designer @ BCM) on TOS regarding Button Rifle VS. CHF: Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was posted by Phreakish (Lead Engineer, Designer @ BCM) on TOS regarding Button Rifle VS. CHF: button vs hammer forged: "steel is steel" and so the expansion, all things being equal, will be about the same. That said, the cold hammer forge process creates what we call residual stress. Basically, the steel is still under pressure once it's finished. For an applied load, the actual stress of the material starts from a negative (verus zero), and therefore can take much more load prior to hitting yield. How much more is highly dependent on many variables. This is especially true for the bore, where the vast majority of the cold work, and therefore the residual stress, is retained. We effectively create a barrel that has a stronger-than-normal (even though hardness is still close to the same) liner with a considerable wall thickness. The grain of the metal will also be refined and we'd expect to see long grains (since barrel blanks start short and end long) on the surface which are tightly packed together. The impact it has on overall expansion should be minimal, and given that the residual stress state is fairly uniform from end-to-end, we wouldn't expect to see any warpage when heated versus if the profile were less than uniform. We still have the same effects from other discontinuities, but all things equal the forged barrel still has the strength advantage with the residual stresses. The tighter grain structure also gives a superior surface for applying chrome and the higher quality surface will resist corrosion better due to the tightly packed grains (similar to the corrosion inhibition seen on polished surfaces, even when untreated). These are the major benefits of the hammer forged barrels: they resist wear better due to the residual stresses and better surface finish and the hard chrome tends to lay itself down in a more uniform and dense coating which increases the benefits offered by the chrome. That all sounds kind of snake oily. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 2:02:09 PM EDT
[#36]
The one built with milspec
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Posted: 1/19/2015 2:33:00 PM EDT
[#37]
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Alert me when CHF barrels win at Camp Perry or when Kreiger stops broach cutting their premier barrels and goes the CHF process. Alert me when a button rifled chrome lined "milspec" does the same. You aren't making a fair comparison. Apples to apples I will take a chromelined CHF over a button rifled chromed barrel. But it's kind of a wash. There are excellent examples of each from quality manufacturers. I vote chf merely because FN and DD seem to know what they're doing. I feel like your chances of getting a good shooter are higher with them. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty good buttoned barrels out there. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 4:23:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alert me when a button rifled chrome lined "milspec" does the same. You aren't making a fair comparison. Apples to apples I will take a chromelined CHF over a button rifled chromed barrel. But it's kind of a wash. There are excellent examples of each from quality manufacturers. I vote chf merely because FN and DD seem to know what they're doing. I feel like your chances of getting a good shooter are higher with them. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty good buttoned barrels out there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Alert me when CHF barrels win at Camp Perry or when Kreiger stops broach cutting their premier barrels and goes the CHF process. Alert me when a button rifled chrome lined "milspec" does the same. You aren't making a fair comparison. Apples to apples I will take a chromelined CHF over a button rifled chromed barrel. But it's kind of a wash. There are excellent examples of each from quality manufacturers. I vote chf merely because FN and DD seem to know what they're doing. I feel like your chances of getting a good shooter are higher with them. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty good buttoned barrels out there. Not referring to a mil-spec at Camp Perry, rather a CHF match barrel. That will show that the CHF is as accurate as a broach cut barrel as I am comparing apples to apples. Even when comparing chrome lined mil-spec barrels, the chief advantage of CHF is the costs savings in the manufacture of it. I laugh at all the vendors charging a premium for their CHF barrels when in reality they should cost less if anything, not that they are inferior to a button rifled barrel but because they are cheaper to make. All else being equal I'd prefer a CHF barrel over the same in a button rifled barrel but I will not pay more for one. In my lifetime I'd never see the difference in it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 5:07:42 PM EDT
[#39]
I'd choose the PSA chf, but I'm biased as a chose the Spikes CHF and they are basically the same thing.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 5:19:16 PM EDT
[#40]
When it comes to a chrome lined barrel, I'll choose CHF every time.
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Posted: 1/19/2015 7:31:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BCM independently certifies their parts. PSA does not. BCM has a near 50% reject rate. u PSA does not. FN USA manufacturers components for BCM, this has been established but not fully verified. When BCM rejects the parts, do they just go in a dumpster, or back to FN USA? What does FN USA do with the rejects? We can get into their respective shipping departments, but I think you understand what I'm getting at. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. BCM independently certifies their parts. PSA does not. BCM has a near 50% reject rate. u PSA does not. FN USA manufacturers components for BCM, this has been established but not fully verified. When BCM rejects the parts, do they just go in a dumpster, or back to FN USA? What does FN USA do with the rejects? We can get into their respective shipping departments, but I think you understand what I'm getting at. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 8:41:29 PM EDT
[#42]
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Please provide any PROOF you have other than "you think" or "seems like" on PSA selling rejects. Not being snotty, just want to know what you know. If you don't have any facts to back up your claim please state that also. Let's face it you are inferring PSA sells rejects with that statement. All I want to know is if you have proof or are you guessing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. BCM independently certifies their parts. PSA does not. BCM has a near 50% reject rate. u PSA does not. FN USA manufacturers components for BCM, this has been established but not fully verified. When BCM rejects the parts, do they just go in a dumpster, or back to FN USA? What does FN USA do with the rejects? We can get into their respective shipping departments, but I think you understand what I'm getting at. Yes, please, I'd love to see it. Sounds like fan boy rhetorics. |
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Posted: 1/19/2015 9:11:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Didn't someone on here get a PSA barrel that still had part of the Centurion Arms logo on it?
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Posted: 1/20/2015 5:21:10 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, please, I'd love to see it. Sounds like fan boy rhetorics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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why not ask for comparison of BCM CHF vs PSA CHF barrels? apples to apples kinda thing? They are made on the same tooling out of the same materials by the same people at the same factory. You will get fanbois that will tell you that the BCM "specs" are going to make their barrels superior to the P.S.A barrels but its a wash. When P.S.A sells stripped barrels they are priced very close to BCM versions. There is no wrong choice when choosing between a BCM chf and a PSA chf. BCM independently certifies their parts. PSA does not. BCM has a near 50% reject rate. u PSA does not. FN USA manufacturers components for BCM, this has been established but not fully verified. When BCM rejects the parts, do they just go in a dumpster, or back to FN USA? What does FN USA do with the rejects? We can get into their respective shipping departments, but I think you understand what I'm getting at. Yes, please, I'd love to see it. Sounds like fan boy rhetorics. No proof. Seems to make the most sense to me. FN USA is not just tossing those rejected parts. I'm asking a simple question... Who's getting these parts? |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 5:21:24 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't someone on here get a PSA barrel that still had part of the Centurion Arms logo on it? Yes. |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 9:03:32 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Didn't someone on here get a PSA barrel that still had part of the Centurion Arms logo on it? Yes. As for your previous statement about rejects. How do you know BCM has 50% failure? Do you work there? Did you just read it and accept it for truth? What makes you think anything is being done with any rejected barrels other than recycle? Your story sounds great and that's how rumors get started. I have no idea on the truth. I don't want run around insinuating things that are unflattering about a company because I draw some sort of conclusion based on items I have read on the Internet forums. You wanna say psa ships slow and their customer service could be better at times I'm all in! I got a couple of their FN barrels so does my BIL, and a very good friend. We are all quite satifisfied with those barrels quality. They shoot on par with my Spikes, FN, and Centurion branded barrels that I personally own. I have know way of knowing if they are BCM rejects or not. But then again I am not trashing their quality based Internet forum speculation. You should be real careful about trashing some bodies product. Maybe make sure you have some personal experience or facts prior to jumping out there. I'll back off if you got some kind of, any kind of fact backing up your inferences, beside old threads on here suggesting the same as you have. I guess it could all be true. But I would love to see the proof first.
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Posted: 1/20/2015 10:08:50 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't just say yes. Link it up. I am interested in seeing the picture. I had not heard of it. As for your previous statement about rejects. How do you know BCM has 50% failure? Do you work there? Did you just read it and accept it for truth? What makes you think anything is being done with any rejected barrels other than recycle? Your story sounds great and that's how rumors get started. I have no idea on the truth. I don't want run around insinuating things that are unflattering about a company because I draw some sort of conclusion based on items I have read on the Internet forums. You wanna say psa ships slow and their customer service could be better at times I'm all in! I got a couple of their FN barrels so does my BIL, and a very good friend. We are all quite satifisfied with those barrels quality. They shoot on par with my Spikes, FN, and Centurion branded barrels that I personally own. I have know way of knowing if they are BCM rejects or not. But then again I am not trashing their quality based Internet forum speculation. You should be real careful about trashing some bodies product. Maybe make sure you have some personal experience or facts prior to jumping out there. I'll back off if you got some kind of, any kind of fact backing up your inferences, beside old threads on here suggesting the same as you have. I guess it could all be true. But I would love to see the proof first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Didn't someone on here get a PSA barrel that still had part of the Centurion Arms logo on it? Yes. You mad? |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 10:21:12 AM EDT
[#48]
Because you asked so nicely.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/559831__ARCHIVED_THREAD____FN_manufactured_CHF_barrels_RESULTS_IN_OP__MORE_INBOUND___CODE_BROKEN__YOU_DECIDE.html&page=1 There was also discussion on TOS. You'll have to find the yourself. I won't link to it. I am glad you had a chance to speak to Monty, he is definitely a class act. As far as the pricing, like I have posted previously, PSA undercut their price and another reason is FN for not having a proper tier pricing to better fit the market.
I found out the barrel shop at FN made a mistake a roll marked a few PSA barrels with Centurion logo, so as far as I know, PSA does not have Centurion spec'ed barrel. EDIT: link fixed |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 11:21:33 AM EDT
[#49]
this is the problem with America today. The lack of objectivity and emotional construct to everything people touch is really damaging. Look, just cause you buy something, doesn't make it the be all end all. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for with few exceptions. I have used many different items from low grade to high grade and never get emotionally attached to one side of the argument.
psa products are hit or miss, so much so that I've stopped ordering from them. I find their lowers and upper receivers to be the most consistent items with everything else not being consistent. II too remember that thread fyi, nothing to get butt hurt about. And whoever said an FN for PSA and an FN for BCM are the same has no idea what they are talking about. Each company does have their own specs or rather, BCM does, just like Spikes and just like other brands. NOT ALL BARRELS ARE THE SAME FROM THE SAME OEM |
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Posted: 1/20/2015 11:42:08 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mad? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Didn't someone on here get a PSA barrel that still had part of the Centurion Arms logo on it? Yes. You mad? And 2nd, lets entertain the thought that they or anybody did sell BCM rejects, ASSUMING BCM really does reject 50%. To what tolerances are their rejects? My PSA barrels, the couple that I own, are quite a bit cheaper than a BCM BFH barrel. I am in no way comparing their quality one way or another. I just stand by my previous statement, they shoot on par with my other FN blank based barrels. No worse shooting in any way. I myself have never seen any photos, that I can recall, of anything that would suggest other company branding on PSA barrels. My only point, was that you were strongly inferring negative things about a company based on hearsay and guesses from what I could tell. I personally do not think that is fair. It is the internet, say whatever you want within the COC. Don't be shocked if I or somebody else bring up an opposing view, it is afterall the internet.  EDIT: LOLOLOL this it what happens when I click your link: This webpage is not available |
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