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Posted: 8/23/2004 11:15:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 11:18:37 AM EST by WIN9639445]
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040805-F-9995T-027.jpg



KADENA AIR BASE, Japan -- Staff Sgt. William Moore helps secure a landing zone as part of a training extraction here Aug. 5. Sergeant Moore is a pararescueman with the 31st Rescue Squadron. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Richard Freeland



I wish somebody could tell these US SPEC OPS guys to stop using these being they are not "Cool" by internet forum standards anymore! LOL! I am sure being in COMBAT and all they do not what to be "Out of VOGUE"!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:17:21 AM EST


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:17:28 AM EST
And on top of it all, it's a lowly "C" version.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:31:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 12:36:45 PM EST by WIN9639445]
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040805-F-9995T-082.jpg
KADENA AIR BASE, Japan -- Staff Sgt. William Moore clears a room during a simulated urban warfare scenario as part of a training extraction here Aug. 5. Sergeant Moore is a pararescueman with the 31st Rescue Squadron. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Richard Freeland)
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:38:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 11:38:41 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:48:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 11:55:36 AM EST by Sharpshot]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
]www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040805-F-9995T-082.jpg]www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040805-F-9995T-082.jpg]]www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040805-F-9995T-082.jpg


Hey, at least the Air Force is using them...



Lumpy, you left a bracket in the URL therefore it doesn't work, doh!

here's lumpy's pic

damn I've never seen so many soldiers "out of vogue"
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:55:37 PM EST
Yeah, those are so last year.......

This year it is a return to simpler times isn't it?
Kinda like how "curb Feelers went out of style...
But do you know where I can get a set of curb feelers for my AR?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:58:14 PM EST
Who's good at photochopping, we need a picture of Madonna in one of her classic faggy "vogue" gestures but in each hand holding an AR15 with an SIR.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:58:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:02:20 PM EST
Looked like 'thumbnails' to me. NEED BIGGER PICTURES!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:04:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:10:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:23:34 PM EST
christ you people are like a broken record.

"see, see, some military billy-bad-ass uses the same gear as me, I'm cool, I'm cool!"

Alright already, we get it. Some nitwit in the military got stuck using the gun with the SIR on it one day. We'll all bow down to the mighty 3rdtk (or whatever the hell name that Swan guy goes by on here).
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:49:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
christ you people are like a broken record.

"see, see, some military billy-bad-ass uses the same gear as me, I'm cool, I'm cool!"

Alright already, we get it. Some nitwit in the military got stuck using the gun with the SIR on it one day. We'll all bow down to the mighty 3rdtk (or whatever the hell name that Swan guy goes by on here).



NO! I do not OWN or LIKE ARMS or the S.I.R.'s. I just want to get these special ops guys that are using them overseas to switch to the LaRue or TROY being they are the latest out. The operators that are using them get them at unit level OTS (off the shelf) or private purchase being they have more choice in what they will use. I wish I could photoshop a TROY or LaRue over the GREMLIN/AMC PACER of rail systems (ARMS SIR)! Being "COOL" is using the latest even if you don't like it!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:56:53 PM EST
Man, talk about smacking the readheaded SIR child....
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:11:23 PM EST
AF Spec-Ops sometimes get some bad info and bad gear. My brother is a AF TACP. We had a discussion last week about shooting. He thought since he could shoot 1-1.5" groups on a 25 meter zeroring target with open sights on an M4 that it meant he could shoot 1-1.5" groups at 250 meters.

He thinks I shoot too much and since he shot 'expert' in the AF that he really doesn't need to practice. My dad (ret. USMC) and I convinced him that you can never shoot 'too good'.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:17:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:

Originally Posted By norman74:
christ you people are like a broken record.

"see, see, some military billy-bad-ass uses the same gear as me, I'm cool, I'm cool!"

Alright already, we get it. Some nitwit in the military got stuck using the gun with the SIR on it one day. We'll all bow down to the mighty 3rdtk (or whatever the hell name that Swan guy goes by on here).



NO! I do not OWN or LIKE ARMS or the S.I.R.'s. I just want to get these special ops guys that are using them overseas to switch to the LaRue or TROY being they are the latest out. The operators that are using them get them at unit level OTS (off the shelf) or private purchase being they have more choice in what they will use. I wish I could photoshop a TROY or LaRue over the GREMLIN/AMC PACER of rail systems (ARMS SIR)! Being "COOL" is using the latest even if you don't like it!



Yeah, cuz the LaRue and Troy systems are so vastly superior the military is going to change over to a completely new system cuz a couple goofs on AR15.com said so
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:21:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:30:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 2:36:55 PM EST by WIN9639445]

Originally Posted By gotm4:
AF Spec-Ops sometimes get some bad info and bad gear. My brother is a AF TACP. We had a discussion last week about shooting. He thought since he could shoot 1-1.5" groups on a 25 meter zeroring target with open sights on an M4 that it meant he could shoot 1-1.5" groups at 250 meters. He


USAF T.A.C.P's are NOT considered Special Ops. It is generally those under the AFSOC command under USSOCOM. Such as COMBAT CONTROL, COMBAT WEATHER, and PARARESCUE. Some PJ's though are under the ACC (Air Combat Command). All the TACP members always had more standard non special ops gear compared to the AFSOC operators. CCT,CWT and PJ's go through much MORE training through their "Pipeline" schools. These guys also go through MUCH more weapons training, they also attend GUNSITE, ect.Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:19:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
AF Spec-Ops sometimes get some bad info and bad gear. My brother is a AF TACP. We had a discussion last week about shooting. He thought since he could shoot 1-1.5" groups on a 25 meter zeroring target with open sights on an M4 that it meant he could shoot 1-1.5" groups at 250 meters.

He thinks I shoot too much and since he shot 'expert' in the AF that he really doesn't need to practice. My dad (ret. USMC) and I convinced him that you can never shoot 'too good'.



USAF T.A.C.P's are NOT considered Special Ops. It is generally those under the AFSOC command under USSOCOM. Such as COMBAT CONTROL, COMBAT WEATHER, and PARARESCUE. Some PJ's though are under the ACC (Air Combat Command). All the TACP members always had more standard non special ops gear compared to the AFSOC operators. CCT,CWT and PJ's go through much MORE training through their "Pipeline" schools. These guys also go through MUCH more weapons training, they also attend GUNSITE, ect.Hope this helps!



I agree 100% their arrogance is incredible. He kept saying that here is his weapon (he acting like he was keying up a radio). I told him to pray that the radio ALWAYS works and PRAY that the AIR is available to drop bombs. Otherwise you may just be needing that M4 and M9.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:47:33 PM EST
I don't like to bash Romads (TACP), you gotta feel for a guy who has to run around with the army.....
I did read an interview with a Romad from that unfortunate incident in Afghy Tora Bora I believe it was, where a couple of birds got shot down trying to recover the body of a KIA, That resulted in the death of a PJ, he said that the Combat Controller that was present did not know how to call in Close air support it kinda tweaked me a bit........ For Shame....... And that the Combat Controller was not very effective in the firefight...... I find all of this tough to believe.
There are SF Tacp but they are few and there are Special Tactics Teams too.
I wasn't there so I don't know but the story just didn't sound right to me.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:44:49 PM EST
A little off topic but...

If you read the book None Braver, what seems to have happened is that the TACP threw the radio at the CCT and told him to radio in air support while he helped the Rangers assault a bunker. The Rangers were his "team" not the Special Tactics Team that was along for the ride. Nothing against STT's but in general when you read the book, you will get the idea that the Army has not fully embraced them taking room on their birds I.E. they have their own medics and officers calling in CAS.

Anywho, their was talk of cowardace and whatnot, but in the end the Rangers and TACP ended up taking the bunker with some help from a Predator, and got a Silver Star, and air capability was delayed. Something about differing frequency's, and call signs. Little was mentioned of where in the heck the CCT's radio was.

TACP's and CCT's have long standing arguements on who is better (hell, PJ's in STT's vs PJ's in SAR and CSAR are thougt to quibble quite a bit as well). TACP's say they can do more with less and are a more adept at cloase air support than CCT's. CCT's say they are the cats ass and eat nails for breakfast, and get the cool jobs like rolling with the Spec-Ops community. TACPS say CCTS are glorified Air Traffic Controllers with guns. CCT's say TACP's are little more than grunts with a radio. Yadda yadda.

Both are adept at close air support, and are generally some tough fella's, though the CCT Pipeline was softened in the past year, with I guess the hope to get more operators in the field. No more 12 week indoc, 2 weeks, then off to ACC school. TACP's initial pipeline is a little over 4 months, with additional for Airborne, and are given the option for HALO, SCUBA, etc, whereas this is mandatory for CCT's. www.specialtactics.comand www.romad.com can give you more info the the training.

Basically, the CCT's are trained more to work with Special Tactics Team and SOF units, whereas TACP's roll with regular Army, and can/will be assigned to some SOF teams. SOF=more unique/specialized/costly/intense training, and therefore will be longer. With the TACP's I have met/heard of, they are (and supposed to be) the equal of there Army counterparts in every way, plus have the duties of calling in bombs danger close.

TACP's will get shorted on gear compared to CCT's, and generally reflect with there unit is using, which could be high or low speed.

STT CCT's and PJ's suck off the SOCOM nipple, and therefore generally get their pick of what they want. With that said, I know of a few PJ's who prefer there XM177's to M-4's, whatever floats their boat. Hell, many of them are still using Trijicon reflexes, and we all know how much those suck.

Either way, any one of these guys would be a welcome sight when the enemey shows up, and if the airpower is not there, they better be good with their rifle because a dead man cannot key up a radio.

My 0.02

-Redfoot

"Tis easier to tear a man apart than to put him back together. Funner too."
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:35:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By new-arguy:

Originally Posted By norman74:
christ you people are like a broken record.

"see, see, some military billy-bad-ass uses the same gear as me, I'm cool, I'm cool!"

Alright already, we get it. Some nitwit in the military got stuck using the gun with the SIR on it one day. We'll all bow down to the mighty 3rdtk (or whatever the hell name that Swan guy goes by on here).



Im not really one to get into discussions like these... but Norm, I swear to god I recall you starting a post a month or two back when you read Pat Rogers saying he didnt like the SIR. If you didnt start it, I recall you participating in it as much as anyone.

I sort of rolled my eyes at that post, I sort of roll my eyes at these. But for you to say alright already now, when you started the "look who dont like the SIR" thread seems a little odd.



I think I did start it, you're right. But it's because it's getting so damn tiring hearing about the thing. First we heard for a year how it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Now that it's not, there's at least two threads that I've seen where everyone is whining "why isn't my SIR still the greatest thing since sliced bread". I posted the Pat quote because so many here seem so wrapped up in what/who likes/uses gear, especially this one for whatever reason. These holy grail quests to find some professional soldier somewhere holding a piece of gear to validate their purchase is kinda sad.

I have always gotten the impression that you use what works for you. Sadly I think (as evidenced by threads like this) I think you're the exception not the rule.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:02:32 PM EST
Thanks Redfoot but trust me I am not in need of any training info......
BTDT......
I've worn a couple different hats (Crimson and Black) in my day and yes I still prefer the Reflex over some of the other sights, I still have the one I used in the Military it was given to me when I departed. I was not intending to bash anyone.....

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:09:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:
I wish somebody could tell these US SPEC OPS guys to stop using these being they are not "Cool" by internet forum standards anymore! LOL! I am sure being in COMBAT and all they do not what to be "Out of VOGUE"!



The Internet forum had more to do with the SIR's popularity a little over a year ago then anything else!

It's hard for most folks to accept that their $400 rail system that was so praised and most frequently recommended at this site just a little over a year ago has now become passé.

This "changing of the guard" has more to do with better designs that are lighter and more affordable then it does with wanting to be "In Vogue".

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:29:03 PM EST
Not to intrude, or anything, but could someone link up the Pat Rogers thread? I'm off to 223 (Pat is supposed to be instructing, schedule permitting) class next week and could use a heads up, since I have a SIR on my main rifle.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:51:11 PM EST
Unknown I wouldn't worry too much about Pat giving you a hard time. I don't think he's the kind of instructor that would do that.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:58:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:12:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Redfoot:
A little off topic but...

If you read the book None Braver, what seems to have happened is that the TACP threw the radio at the CCT and told him to radio in air support while he helped the Rangers assault a bunker. The Rangers were his "team" not the Special Tactics Team that was along for the ride. Nothing against STT's but in general when you read the book, you will get the idea that the Army has not fully embraced them taking room on their birds I.E. they have their own medics and officers calling in CAS.

Anywho, their was talk of cowardace and whatnot, but in the end the Rangers and TACP ended up taking the bunker with some help from a Predator, and got a Silver Star, and air capability was delayed. Something about differing frequency's, and call signs. Little was mentioned of where in the heck the CCT's radio was.

TACP's and CCT's have long standing arguements on who is better (hell, PJ's in STT's vs PJ's in SAR and CSAR are thougt to quibble quite a bit as well). TACP's say they can do more with less and are a more adept at cloase air support than CCT's. CCT's say they are the cats ass and eat nails for breakfast, and get the cool jobs like rolling with the Spec-Ops community. TACPS say CCTS are glorified Air Traffic Controllers with guns. CCT's say TACP's are little more than grunts with a radio. Yadda yadda.

Both are adept at close air support, and are generally some tough fella's, though the CCT Pipeline was softened in the past year, with I guess the hope to get more operators in the field. No more 12 week indoc, 2 weeks, then off to ACC school. TACP's initial pipeline is a little over 4 months, with additional for Airborne, and are given the option for HALO, SCUBA, etc, whereas this is mandatory for CCT's. www.specialtactics.comand www.romad.com can give you more info the the training.

Basically, the CCT's are trained more to work with Special Tactics Team and SOF units, whereas TACP's roll with regular Army, and can/will be assigned to some SOF teams. SOF=more unique/specialized/costly/intense training, and therefore will be longer. With the TACP's I have met/heard of, they are (and supposed to be) the equal of there Army counterparts in every way, plus have the duties of calling in bombs danger close.

TACP's will get shorted on gear compared to CCT's, and generally reflect with there unit is using, which could be high or low speed.

STT CCT's and PJ's suck off the SOCOM nipple, and therefore generally get their pick of what they want. With that said, I know of a few PJ's who prefer there XM177's to M-4's, whatever floats their boat. Hell, many of them are still using Trijicon reflexes, and we all know how much those suck.

Either way, any one of these guys would be a welcome sight when the enemey shows up, and if the airpower is not there, they better be good with their rifle because a dead man cannot key up a radio.

My 0.02

-Redfoot

"Tis easier to tear a man apart than to put him back together. Funner too."



Probably the best post I have read on this board in a long time.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:02:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 4:17:14 AM EST by WIN9639445]

Originally Posted By AKM:

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:
I wish somebody could tell these US SPEC OPS guys to stop using these being they are not "Cool" by internet forum standards anymore!hey


The Internet forum had more to do with the SIR's popularity a little over a year ago then anything else!hard
This "changing of the guard" has more to do with better designs that are lighter and more affordable then it does with wanting to be "In Vogue".




"Better designs"hey The whole internet forum "Changing of the guard" seems to me has more to do with getting what ever just comes out at the time. Whether you even truly like itor not! Now that seems to be the whole internet forum being "IN VOGUE" thing! Which comes off as being kinda "Creepy"! LOL The only reason I post a pic of an US SPEC OPS soldier using SIR's is people used to complain of NEVER seeing a US soldier with one! It has always been PHILLIPPINE spec ops or US private security contractors in IRAQ or AFGANASTAN. Now, in my opinion, what I will be all hyped up over is the KAC URX and URX II if and when they decide to offer them!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:20:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:

Originally Posted By AKM:

Originally Posted By WIN9639445:
I wish somebody could tell these US SPEC OPS guys to stop using these being they are not "Cool" by internet forum standards anymore! LOL! I am sure being in COMBAT and all they do not what to be "Out of VOGUE"!



The Internet forum had more to do with the SIR's popularity a little over a year ago then anything else!

It's hard for most folks to accept that their $400 rail system that was so praised and most frequently recommended at this site just a little over a year ago has now become passé.

This "changing of the guard" has more to do with better designs that are lighter and more affordable then it does with wanting to be "In Vogue".




"Better designs" They are all pretty much the EXACT same thing! LOL the only one that is different is the TROY which finally a step FORWARD with the "uniterupted" continous top rail! EVERYTHING else has just been different "TAKE OFF's" of the KAC "FREE FLOAT" RAS series. The ARMS SIR's are a totally different animal. It is a complete "SYSTEM" which replaces ALL the rails and has a different mounting style being the whole flat top upper. Also internal wiring channels and all over sling interfaces with rail removal options or replacement with different style or lenggths. The others are just free float tubular foreends. I don't even LIKE ANYTHING ARMS. Remember "Down with A.R.M.S.!" becausing EVERYONE else in the internet forum world is doing it The whole internet forum "Changing of the guard" seems to me has more to do with getting what ever just comes out at the time. Whether you even truly like itor not! Now that seem to be the whole internet forum being "IN VOGUE" thing! Which comes off as being kinda "Creepy"! LOL The only reason I post a pic of an US SPEC OPS soldier using SIR's is people used to complain of NEVER seeing a US soldier with one! It has always been PHILLIPPINE spec ops or US private security contractors in IRAQ or AFGANASTAN. Now, in my opinion, what I will be all hyped up over is the KAC URX and URX II if and when they decide to offer them!



Actually, the new Larue (I think it's Larue.....) has pins to keep it from loosening, a problem with many of the other free-float forends (admitedly not the SIR).
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:26:43 AM EST
I agree completely that the SIR's proliferation had more do with Internet "keeping up with the Jones" then anything else.

Hopefully most of the blind followers have now learned their lesson (a $400 lesson).

On the other hand to say that the only reason many folks (some of who have never owned a rail system before) are going with superior designs just to "keep up" is absurd!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:29:40 PM EST


This "changing of the guard" has more to do with better designs that are lighter and more affordable then it does with wanting to be "In Vogue".



BINGO! well said
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:52:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:54:40 PM EST by Redfoot]
Stickman, thanks for the compliment. I do not consider myself "High Speed", but I have trusted individuals who I keep in contact with that help me wade through the BS when it comes to operations which I regretfully know little about.

AFSOC, this was not meant to be a lesson to you, but rather give those less enlightened a glimpse beyond the pissing match that goes on between Spec Ops and so called "grunts". I am grateful for your service and others that rise to fullfill a difficult job (to say the least) in an unforgiving battlefield. One day I hope to posses a beret that will distinguish myself as a person capable of completing a tough mission. For now I wait and put back together police and druggies alike so they can one day aproach a normal life again, until my number is called.

Use what works for you, for that is the most important, range-wise and two-way range wise.

Tech advances happen, but as we all know the military is at times reluctant to switch, but we all hope such delays do not cost lives.

My 0.03.

"Tis far easier to tear a man apart than to put him back together. Funner too."
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