User Panel
Posted: 10/30/2004 6:23:50 PM EDT
So now the Marines have adopted the 4X ACOG as their main combat optic, and have ordered over 50K of them for issue to all troops in the infantry battalions. Meanwhile, the Army has gone with the 1X Aimpoint, with 200K in service and another order just placed for 70K more.
Any opinions as to which is better suited as a combat optic for the individual infantryman? |
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I would think the Aimpoint is great for CQB, and the ACOG is better suited for close range to mid-range and I suppose with USMC marksmanship quality, that includes long range engagements as well. ACOG has no limitations due to batteries either.
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Yes, but does the individual infantryman NEED 4X? Given the typical engagement ranges seen since the advent of modern warfare, wouldn't 1X be just fine, with magnifying scopes reserved for Designated Marksmen? Given the extra cost of the ACOG, is it a waste to issue them to every trooper? Or, given what may now be a new and lasting style of combat shooting, is the newly re-discovered idea of a "Squad Marksman" already obsolete? Given the capabilities of a scoped M-16, are all infantrymen now potential "Designated Marksman"?
I'm not too sure. Not everyone is that good a shot, even with an optic. And, even though the M-16 has an automatic fire capability, we stll adopted the Squad Automatic Weapon, because there are certain mechanical feature that typify a SAW (belt fed, quick change barrel, etc.) that would be out of place on an individual assault weapon, and that the M-16 lacks. Similarly, the M-16 needs certain modifications for it to produce precision accuracy. So, do we issue one type of M-16 with a costly optic that offers more capabilities than most will need, or have a version for most infantry with a 1x optic, and an accurized version with 4X or greater optics for "Designated Marksmen", who will also recieve more specialized training? Or, is the M-16A4 "ggod enough" for squad-level engagements, while backed up at platoon level with a more capable (hopefully 7.62!) rifle? |
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Both services issue both optics. Each has a job and each serves its purpose. Both are valid in combat and they complement each other. The Aimpoint (and the EOTech that is also now being issued) offer greater speed for close engagements. The ACOG offers increased hit potential at greater than close quarters. Both types are needed as they fill inportant niches in the field of combat.
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I agree. Problem is, that only works when the two tyes are integrated in at the unit level. These two optics are about as far from "integrated" as can be...they are in DIFFERENT SERVICES fer crissakes! |
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I guess you missed knightone's first sentence.
I agree fully with knightone's assement. |
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USMC, definately... The fixation with 'CQB' on this board aside, any optic on a rifle should be designed for use in engaging targets across the full effective range of the weapon... The ACOG is far better for this, with it's 4X magnification, than the unmagnified red-dot... |
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Outstanding post. |
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I did not miss knightone's first sentence.
But it is not accurate. The Marines have adopted the ACOG as the Rifle Combat Optic. Not the "mid-range" RCO. And they do not call the Aimpoint the "CQB" optic. The ACOG will be THE combat optic for all infantryman. Sure, Recon types and other specialists might have the Aimpoint...but in the rifle companies it will be all ACOGs. No integration. |
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This is contrary to what is being practiced and what has been seen. If the Corps is wanting to issue ACOGs across the board and not make the Aimpoint availalble to the infantry units, I have not heard of it (not that I would). While I'm sure the statement has been made about the ACOG becoming the standard optic for the A4, I have doubts as to whether or not it is actually going to occur across the board. The Aimpoint is supposed to be the standard optic for the Army, yet there are many, many ACOGs in service with that branch and the EOTech has also been adopted and is trickling into the supply chain. However, it's not like I haven't been wrong in the past and anything is possible, so take the statement for what its worth. Maybe you could point me toward evidence that your statement is the new policy? I would like to know. |
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Is it less of an issue using the ACOG as a standard optic with the newer TA31 version that's available. Since this version of the ACOG has the ability to be used easier as a CQB then the older TA01 or TA01NSN. The TA31 is not an Aimpoint but it could serve as one if need be with the proper training.
Seems like a good choice to go for the optic that can fill multiple purposes. |
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Which ever optic is chosen, I can't see them going wrong. I agree wth Lumpy. Anything's better than irons. What's most important is the man or woman behind the trigger. If that person is trained on that optic, then it's the right combo.
I personally think the ACOG's a better choice for general purpose. If the enemy is close enought that the ACOG FOV it totally filled and ineffective, then the soldier may need to remove their head from being burried in the optic, point and shoot. |
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True that. True that. |
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In my opinion, an optic (either an ACOG with BAC capability, or Aimpoint with detachable magnifier) and a collapsing stock upgrade on every rifle would be a much better investment of funds than a change over to the XM-8 system. Magnification is important for ever soldier these days, because it greatly aides in target identification. With the way casualty numbers (that includes our casualties, enemy casualties, and innocent casualties) influence our actions abroad during times of war, killing the wrong people could have a disasterous effect on the conflict. This makes it important (at least in my opinion) to be able to tell who has a gun and who doesn't, or better yet, who are the friendly indigiouns personnel with guns, and whose hostile. Now, not having experience with either the ACOG with BAC capability, or the Aimpoint with 3x magnifier, I cannot recommend one over the other, but it is (again in my opinion) importnant for any future combat optic upgrades to feature some sort of magnification.
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How about a 1x Red dot that can be converted to a 4x scope with the twist of a few knobs? I mean for $700-$1000 you can buy an ACOG and if you can afford that, you probably can afford an extra few hundred for a 1x dot/4x scope combo if they can make it right.
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There are many good points stated here.
I see the Marine’s use of the RCO as a validation in their belief of long range marksmanship. They qualify at up to 500 meters while the Army qualifies at up to 300 meters. I assume that the Marines still qualify with irons though. But I believe that the Army qualifies with the Aimpoint if available to that unit. Could it be that the Army had enough forethought to expect Aimpoint’s 3X magnifier? I doubt that. Big Army, forethought, words not often used in the same sentence. Anyway, they save a little money now and spend a little money later on the magnifiers. Maybe the brass thought that they couldn’t afford to outfit all the line infantry companies with ACOGs. As stated, either is better than none at all. |
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ISSUE RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC (RCO) AND INTEGRATED INTRA-SQUAD
RADIO : A. DISCUSSION: GCE EXPERIENCE IN OIF AND MCWL EXPERIMENTATION IN PROJECT METROPOLIS SHOW THAT MARINE INFANTRYMEN ARMED WITH THE M16A4 AND A MAGNIFIED DAY OPTIC ARE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN WITH AN M16 WITH IRON SIGHTS. WITH AN ADDED INTEGRATED INTRA-SQUAD RADIO (IISR) THE INFANTRY SQUAD HAS A CAPABILITY THAT DRAMATICALLY INCREASES THE SQUAD'S OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS. THE GCE HAS IDENTIFIED BOTH THE RCO AND IISR AS TOP PRIORITIES FOR POM-06, AND HAS LINKED THEM WITH THE MODULAR WEAPONS SYSTEM (MWS) PROGRAM AS A SINGLE CAPABILITY SET. FIRST PRIORITY OF FIELDING FOR THE CAPABILITY SET WITHIN THE GCE IS TO THE INFANTRY, DIV RECON, LAR, CEB (MINUS ENGINEER SUPPORT COMPANY (ESC), AND MP CO. SECOND PRIORITY FOR GCE FIELDING IS ARTILLERY, TANKS, AAVS, ESC, AND HQ BN. B. ACTION: PP&O LEAD; COORDINATE WITH OPERATING FORCES, MCCDC, AND SYSCOM FOR DETAILED NUMBER OF RCO AND IISR, AND BANDING OF CAPABILITY SETS FOR POM DISCUSSIONS |
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Thanks for the input, guys. And STLRN has given us confirmation that the Corps indeed is proceeding to an all-ACOG issue.
Corporal_Chaos rightly brought up the 3X Aimpoint module, which I had momentarily forgotten. This complicates the matter some, but a Aimpoint even with a magnifier is not the equivalent of an ACOG because it has only a static dot as an aiming mark; it lacks a range-compensating reticle. Still, it would assist in target identifacation. IMHO metroplex is on the right track; perhaps what we need is a variable-power optic; but this still leaves the issue of the utility of a "Squad Designated Marksman" in question. |
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I think the big question is still "Will widespread use of a magnified optic allow average engagement ranges to increase?"
If the answer to this is "Yes" then I expect to see the ACOG get a lot more acceptance for more general issue. If engagement ranges remain static with most happening in the 20-50m range despite the optic, then I imagine that the Aimpoint will become more dominant and the ACOG will be relegated to a DM role primarily. |
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My $0.02 would be, generically, Aimpoint for the M4 and ACOG for the M16. Each command should be able to tailor this general rule to best utilize their resources and personnel.
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+1 .... i do feel that aimpoints are better bargins than acogs.... for the money... you getting an amazing optic for a third of the cost... most combat ranges are closer than further... but the acogs definately have their role... |
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When considering the deficiencies of the ACOG in a CQB role, you have to identify at what range the ACOG's magnification becomes a hindrance rather than an asset, and then bounce that off of typical engagement ranges encountered. Just a WAG on my part, but I'm guessing the ranges where it's a problem probably only extend out to 15-20 yds or so. We're talking 4X, not a 10X sniper scope. Beyond that it's superior -- great optics which gather light, extending its capability; BDC for long range; magnification to allow positive ID of target; etc. For close in stuff, BAC training becomes cruicial, but I suspect the military will take care of the training.
One thing we know, the Marine Corps isn't going to pay $1,000 a copy. Methinks they are getting a discount here. I'm really glad to see military planners are acknowledging the superiority of optics on a fighting rifle. Anything to help the troops make good hits quicker, I say. |
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If there is still the inter-service rivalry that was there in the 'Nam era, the J-Heads probably went with ACOG not to give any thing to the Army.
Or...they saw a chance with the FAT sand-war budget to get the best to be had for all. Always easier to BS down to a "lowly" Aimpoint {or ?} afterwards in the Military. At least they're buying from a US Co! |
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Alot of troops around the world use magnified optics, Canada only uses the Elcan on C7's.. |
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They both got it right!
I personally prefer the ACOG because my eyes are not what they used to be! |
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I dont think so either, Marine Corps is POOR. (well compared to the other services) I cant see it paying that much. |
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Well, I know the Army has been issuing both the ACOG and the EoTech to units. As well as M-68's (aimpoints if they do not already have them) to fill shortages in where there are not aimpoint. Now there is some guidance coming out to try and give the ACOGs to squad designated marksmen. I have seen squad sized elements with all three devices on M-16A4's and M-4's.
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The ACOG, with BAC has a 0-600 meter range and requires no battereies. The Marines love it because they can identify targets from 4 times the distance.
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The Marines have alwaus been fixated on long range shooting. The decision should suprise noone.
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I'm a former Marine; I wonder if I could get in on the Corp's "group buy"... ***** But seriously, I have a TA-31F and an Aimpoint. I was going to put the Aimpoint on my M-14 build when it is completed, and was wondering what optic to put on my General Purpose AR in place of the Aimpoint. The ACOG is prolly going on my "Recce Rifle" clone; I am giving the compact ACOG a hard look... |
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Does anyone know the average engagment distance? I would suppose that it is under 150 yards. If so....AIMPOINT ALL THE WAY! When chosing an optic I think that it needs to be designed for 90% of what will be done. Sometimes people look at that 10% of rarely done stuff and chose the optic around that. I would want an optic designed for the stuff I will most likely be doing.
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amen |
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i can understand this totally... |
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Both sights are doing very well, but you are hearing more complaints from M68 users than from ACOG users.
On the ACOG, the most I have ever heard bad about it was the magnification makes it hard to shoot from a moving vehicle. I think someone summed it up best, some people are overly interested in CQB. Despite shooting being closer than previous doctrine, it still far enough away that magnification helps. |
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I think you have it completely backwards. You are looking at the problem from the standpoint of how far out can the AIMPOINT be used and still be considered effective. At 150 yds, at dusk, it won't be that effective. When trying to distinguish a target in a cluttered environment at 150 yds, it won't be effective. Then start backing the yardages back -- will it work in these scenarios at 100 yds, at 50 yds? The ACOG excels in these scenarios. The rub against it is it isn't effective at rock throwing distances. The real question should be, "Does BAC, coupled with proper training, make up for these shortcomings?" If the answer is yes, then it's ACOG all the way. If not, then either issue, or at elast let the troops procure their own favored CQB optic. |
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How about Plan "C"? Issue them one of each with a La Rue mount. |
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Works for me. I mean if we can tell each to get both, why not tell the same to the good ol' DoD? |
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