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Posted: 8/23/2017 8:20:17 AM EDT
I'm looking to acquire a new caliber for hunting deer, hogs, etc...something that packs a little more punch than a 556/223 round.  Looking to stay in the AR platform.

With the PSA deals on their PA10, that's obviously one way to go to get myself into a 308.  I've also considered 300 BO, 6.5G, and 6.8 SPCII uppers 

There are pros and cons to each of these.  I like the idea of the PA10 to have a complete rifle but then I'm getting into a new mount, scope, etc which is fine I guess.

Looking to talk through the options.  Budget is flexible but not looking to spend more than 1k all in.  I reload FWIW and already have .30 cal components.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:25:03 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I'm looking to acquire a new caliber for hunting deer, hogs, etc...something that packs a little more punch than a 556/223 round.  Looking to stay in the AR platform.

With the PSA deals on their PA10, that's obviously one way to go to get myself into a 308.  I've also considered 300 BO, 6.5G, and 6.8 SPCII uppers 

There are pros and cons to each of these.  I like the idea of the PA10 to have a complete rifle but then I'm getting into a new mount, scope, etc which is fine I guess.

Looking to talk through the options.  Budget is flexible but not looking to spend more than 1k all in.  I reload FWIW and already have .30 cal components.
View Quote


It's all a personal choice, everyone will have a different suggestion. Try several! lol

The 7.62x39 is nice here in Arkansas, 308 is a bit much for our deer.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 9:16:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Go big bore.  I will be hunting deer with my AR-15 chambered in 450 Bushmaster.  275 gr Barnes TSX doing a touch over 1900fps is going to roll bambi quite nicely I think.

Link Posted: 8/23/2017 9:47:00 AM EDT
[#3]
What ranges will you be shooting? Brush or open country?

308s are nice with plenty of power but they are a bit heavier than the AR-15 variants. They can also be finicky to get running properly. I'm building one myself and I have been advised to use a heavy 10oz buffer. These buffers are expensive and add even more weight to the rifle.

300 BLK is fine with 110 or 120 grain bullets as long as you keep your shots to under 175 yards. 150 would be a better bet IMHO. They are also easily suppressed if you ever want to shoot suppressed.

6.5 and 6.8 are both great out to 300 yards. Past 300 the 6.5's better BC takes over and will shoot flatter. You'll still need to hold over though. You can now get steel cased 6.5 for cheep, just for practicing.

The Big Bores .450, .458, .50 are really hard hitters and better for brush, but you significantly reduce your range and your magazine capacity. Not a problem if your shots are under 125 yards and the rifles sole purpose is hunting.

Pick your poison.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:04:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What ranges will you be shooting? Brush or open country?

308s are nice with plenty of power but they are a bit heavier than the AR-15 variants. They can also be finicky to get running properly. I'm building one myself and I have been advised to use a heavy 10oz buffer. These buffers are expensive and add even more weight to the rifle.

300 BLK is fine with 110 or 120 grain bullets as long as you keep your shots to under 175 yards. 150 would be a better bet IMHO. They are also easily suppressed if you ever want to shoot suppressed.

6.5 and 6.8 are both great out to 300 yards. Past 300 the 6.5's better BC takes over and will shoot flatter. You'll still need to hold over though. You can now get steel cased 6.5 for cheep, just for practicing.

The Big Bores .450, .458, .50 are really hard hitters and better for brush, but you significantly reduce your range and your magazine capacity. Not a problem if your shots are under 125 yards and the rifles sole purpose is hunting.

Pick your poison.
View Quote
Any of the AR-15 big bore cartridges are easily 200-250 yards guns.  They are not as flat shooting or as accurate as some other cartridges mentioned so far but they will shoot close to MOA (certainly Minute of Deer Vitals) out that far easily and carry enough energy for pig or deer.  With the plethora of scopes that have some type of bullet drop reticle it's pretty easy to work out the dope for the cartridge out to those ranges.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:18:32 AM EDT
[#5]
I was in the same spot and chose 6.5 Grendel. To me, it's the ultimate hunting cartridge for an AR. The magazine capacity is still good, the ballistics are unbeaten, the factory ammo selection is awesome, and the components are becoming more plentiful.

You can get Hornady SST ammo for less than a buck a round, and you can get wolf steel case ammo for less than 25 cents a round. With my 18" barrel it's capable of taking game to 400yds, and is very effective on animals. I have dropped 2 black bear and 2 mule deer with it. One bear was 300lbs and got dropped hard by 1 shot at 130yds.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:21:49 AM EDT
[#6]
I find 223 to be very affective.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:29:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Any of the AR-15 big bore cartridges are easily 200-250 yards guns.  They are not as flat shooting or as accurate as some other cartridges mentioned so far but they will shoot close to MOA (certainly Minute of Deer Vitals) out that far easily and carry enough energy for pig or deer.  With the plethora of scopes that have some type of bullet drop reticle it's pretty easy to work out the dope for the cartridge out to those ranges.
View Quote
Yes the big bores will shoot that far but they do have significantly more drop than a 6.5 or 6.8. That's what I was referring to. Also some bullets such as the Barnes copper bullets require more velocity to expand, thus shorter ranges. BUT, it's still a .45 cal or larger so it's still gonna make a big hole even if it doesn't expand.

swampie
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:32:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
The .223/5.56 is very capable of taking pigs or deer, however; they are not legal hunting calibers in many states.

swampie
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:56:57 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for the replies. Shots will be mixed brush and open country, all under 300 yards but most at or under 100
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 11:23:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The .223/5.56 is very capable of taking pigs or deer, however; they are not legal hunting calibers in many states.

swampie
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Quoted:
The .223/5.56 is very capable of taking pigs or deer, however; they are not legal hunting calibers in many states.

swampie
You're right.  I thought that was the case here in Nebraska, then I started looking into the statute, at what the limit is, and then started talking to manufacturers.  I want to buy a chrono soon to test before deer season, but Black Hills has a few loads that will meet the legal standard in a 16" barrel.  I'm still debating turning my 16" AR into a 6.5G, but I know a TSX will drop a deer.

Or I might just buy a Tikka T3X in 6.5 Creedmoor and call it good.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 12:26:07 PM EDT
[#11]
300 Blackout would be perfect in a smaller and lighter package than an ar10

I find ar10s a bit clunky for my taste
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 1:19:54 PM EDT
[#12]
6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, and .308 Winchester were at the top of my list when I was looking into this.  The 6.5 Grendel steel cased Wolf at $0.25 per round was the kicker.  Lots of practice at the same cost as my 5.56 seemed like a no-brainer.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 1:34:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Grendel will save room in the safe... There are some deals on Bear Creek uppers... PA just had a 20" railed upper for $300 last week. You can swap onto an existing lower. PA10 deals are also hard to pass up. $479 total for an upper and lower can't be beat. They also have the PX10 out which is a small frame dpms g2 knock-off from what I'm seeing that is running $800 I believe.

I'll be rocking a grendel myself  this year. It is a great round and will probably be leaving my 556 builds to gather dust except for some range time now and then. If I were going to have serious longer shots though I would pick the 308 or 30-06 but grendel works for me down here in FL.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 2:16:25 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm really thinking I may go with the 300 BO. I won't need to take the longer shots often and I reload so will be able to keep costs down. 

I have seen the Bear Creek brand but am not familiar with it. That doesn't mean much. 

I do have a 308 bolt action but it's more for bench shooting. Have some money tied into it and don't want to drag it through the woods
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 2:37:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm really thinking I may go with the 300 BO. I won't need to take the longer shots often and I reload so will be able to keep costs down. 

I have seen the Bear Creek brand but am not familiar with it. That doesn't mean much. 

I do have a 308 bolt action but it's more for bench shooting. Have some money tied into it and don't want to drag it through the woods
View Quote
What will 300blk do better than 6.5 Grendel? How cheaply can you load 300blk?

Steel case Grendel is $230 per 1k, and will easily out perform 300blk. Plus you're not handicapped with Grendel, if you have an opportunity to shoot longer range, it'll easily do it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 2:56:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What will 300blk do better than 6.5 Grendel? How cheaply can you load 300blk?

Steel case Grendel is $230 per 1k, and will easily out perform 300blk. Plus you're not handicapped with Grendel, if you have an opportunity to shoot longer range, it'll easily do it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm really thinking I may go with the 300 BO. I won't need to take the longer shots often and I reload so will be able to keep costs down. 

I have seen the Bear Creek brand but am not familiar with it. That doesn't mean much. 

I do have a 308 bolt action but it's more for bench shooting. Have some money tied into it and don't want to drag it through the woods
What will 300blk do better than 6.5 Grendel? How cheaply can you load 300blk?

Steel case Grendel is $230 per 1k, and will easily out perform 300blk. Plus you're not handicapped with Grendel, if you have an opportunity to shoot longer range, it'll easily do it.
That's true. I don't plan on suppressing or SBR so that eliminates some of the value of 300blk. For a hunting a rig a flatter bullet makes more sense, too. 

Too many choices. Which I guess is a good thing
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 4:57:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's true. I don't plan on suppressing or SBR so that eliminates some of the value of 300blk. For a hunting a rig a flatter bullet makes more sense, too. 

Too many choices. Which I guess is a good thing
View Quote
I'm biased, but honestly Grendel makes the most sense. Get a 16" ballistic advantage barrel, shoot hogs with steel case, shoot deer with SST, and have a rifle capable of any distance you may encounter.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 5:32:18 PM EDT
[#18]
6.5 Grendel opens up a lot of doors that are permanently closed for .300 Blackout.

There isn't anything performance-wise the .300 can do for hunting that the Grendel doesn't do better, and the Grendel exceeds the .300s performance even if you compare a 10.5" Grendel to a 16" .300 BO.

You have the opportunity to choose something very compact that hits outside of its weight class.

The main benefit of .300 BO I've seen is for certain units that do a lot of shooting inside the house and want to reduce the exposure of shooters to repeated overpressure within the walls of a building or enclosed space, by using suppressed subsonic.

Once we venture into the supersonic realm, it's a very anemic cartridge compared to what's out there, but it will still kill things deader than dead within its capable engagement range for expansion.  One major consideration for the layman is buying premium ammo meant to expand at .300 BO speeds, like the Barnes VOR-TX, which costs ~ $30+/box of 20.

Cheapest I see brass-cased .300 for is 70 cents a piece for a hollow point, not too bad.  There is a lot of remanufactured ammo for it, which I tend to steer way clear from personally.  .300 BO allows you to use a shorter barrel for suppressed use if you want a really compact package with an 8" pipe and a lightweight can, since the muzzle pressure is lower, corresponding with the very small volume of case capacity.

With Grendel, you have 48 original factory loads ranging from 23 cent steel case to premium hunting or TGT ammo.

Depending on what you're doing, either will work for you.  There are pros and cons to each.  Some people see the commonality of magazines as a major pro for the .300 BO, whereas the list of forum members seems to be growing rapidly as to how many catastrophic failures they've had with .300 getting fired from 5.56 ARs and blowing them apart into fragments all over the range.  That isn't happening with 6.5 Grendel since neither will fit in the other's chamber (5.56 & Grendel).
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 5:50:33 PM EDT
[#19]
AR10, .308. Good for both hogs and deer. Lots of ammunition options and its readily available.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 7:46:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Do I lose much velocity going with a 20" vs 24" barrel in 6.5?  Thinking for hunting the 20 will be easier to carry. May lose some potential benefit at longer ranges but I could live with that

What's the general consensus of the Bear Creek brand being sold at Primary Arms?
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:09:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's true. I don't plan on suppressing or SBR so that eliminates some of the value of 300blk. For a hunting a rig a flatter bullet makes more sense, too. 

Too many choices. Which I guess is a good thing
View Quote
If your not suppressing or SBr there is no good reason to get the 300 blk over 6.5 grendel or 6.8 spc.  Both those will hit a lot harder at 200 yards
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:35:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Do I lose much velocity going with a 20" vs 24" barrel in 6.5?  Thinking for hunting the 20 will be easier to carry. May lose some potential benefit at longer ranges but I could live with that

What's the general consensus of the Bear Creek brand being sold at Primary Arms?
View Quote
If you plan on sticking to under 400yds for taking game, it get a 16".

Keep it short and light, but still has enough power to take game at 300+ yards. Ballistic Advantage is the best new thing right now.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:48:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Do I lose much velocity going with a 20" vs 24" barrel in 6.5?  Thinking for hunting the 20 will be easier to carry. May lose some potential benefit at longer ranges but I could live with that

What's the general consensus of the Bear Creek brand being sold at Primary Arms?
View Quote
6.5 Grendel Chronograph data

A Friend and I conducted a chronograph test last year with our 6.5 Grendel AR-15's and a Magneto Speed Chronograph.   The temperature was 76 degrees, overcast skies, Barometric Pressure 30.05, Humidity 78 %, Dew Point 68 Degrees at 350' ASL.   We shot at paper targets set at approximately 110 yards.

The first 6.5 Grendel was a 16" chrome moly 1:9 twist J & T Distributing CAR gas system with a Double Star lower, Double Star 6 position collapsable stock with a RRA LPK and RRA NM trigger.  A E O Tech 512 mounted for the test.

First hand load to test chronograph, 85 grain Sierra Varmint JHP, 29.0 grains X-Terminator, S/B large rifle primer fire formed mixed 7.62X39 brass.

1. 2718
2. 2712
3. 2682
4. 2700
5. 2771
6. 2718
7. 2703
8. 2706
9. 2690
10 2696


Max 2771
Min. 2682
Avg. 2709
S-D 24.4

120 grain HP BT PPU lot # 23 15 02

1. 2409
2. 2397
3. 2383
4. 2391
5. 2380

Max 2409
Min  2380
Avg  2392
S-D  11.6

110 grain FMJ PPU lot # 19 15 01

1. 2501
2. 2499
3. 2527
4. 2516
5. 2507

Max 2527
Min  2499
Avg  2510
S-D  11.5

123 grain A-Max Hornady  lot # 3110140

1. 2415
2. 2430
3. 2401
4. 2418
5. 2431

Max  2431
Min   2401
Avg   2419
S-D   12.2

123 Grain SST Hornady  lot #  3140701

1. 2441
2. 2445
3. 2433
4. 2416
5. 2437

Max 2441
Min  2416
Avg  2430
S-D  10

Hand load 123 grain Nosler CC 31.0 grains CFE 223, CCI 450, Hornady cases.

1. 2448
2. 2444
3. 2446
4. 2448
5. 2460

Max 2460
Min  2444
Avg  2449
S-D  6.2

100 grain FMJ Wolf steel case  lot # 23 IP 01   2015-01

1. 2515
2. 2499
3. 2486
4. 2509
5. 2528

Max  2528
Min   2486
Avg   2507
S-D   15.9

The next 6.5 Grendel we tested was a 18" Brownell's Liberty 1:8 twist stainless Steel barrel mid length gas system,  RRA railed hand guard with Vortex 4-16 Viper PST, RRA NM trigger and RRA 6 position stock.


120 grain HP BT PPU

1. 2460
2. 2443
3. 2459
4. 2444
5. 2470

Max 2470
Min  2443
Avg  2455
S-D  11.4

110 grain FMJ PPU

1. 2544
2. 2580
3. 2550
4. 2585
5. 2591

Max 2591
Min  2544
Avg  2570
S-D  21.4

123 grain A-Max Hornady

1. 2467
2. 2451
3. 2488
4. 2453
5. 2461

Max 2488
Min  2451
Avg  2464
S-D  14.8

123 Grain SST Hornady

1. 2493
2. 2489
3. 2490
4. 2491
5. 2502

Max 2502
Min  2489
Avg  2493
S-D  5.1

100 Grain Wolf FMJ Steel Cased

1. 2583
2. 2576
3. 2575
4. 2567
5. 2555

Max 2583
Min 2555
Avg 2571
S-D 10.6

Hand Load 123 grain Nosler CC 31.0 CFE 223, CCI 450, Hornady cases.

1. 2459
2. 2469
3. 2479
4. 2484
5. 2468

Max 2484
Min  2459
Avg   2471
S-D  9.8


We next tested a 20" Shilen 1:9 twist SS barrel, Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50 scope, PSA upper and lower, Hogue free float tube, RRA NM LPK with PSA 6 position stock.

120 grain HP BT PPU

1. 2488
2. 2478
3. 2486
4. 2467
5. 2483

Max 2488
Min  2467
Avg  2480
S-D  8.3

110 grain FMJ  PPU

1. 2611
2. 2609
3. 2617
4. 2627
5. 2612

Max 2623
Min  2609
Avg  2614
S-D  5.6

123 grain A-Max Hornady

1. 2497
2. 2505
3. 2514
4. 2510
5. 2500

Max 2514
Min  2497
Avg  2505
S-D  6.9

123 grain SST Hornady

1. 2521
2. 2503
3. 2506
4. 2504
5. 2522

Max 2522
Min  2503
Ave  2511
S-D  9.4

123 grain Hand Load Nosler CC 31.0 CFE 223, CCI 450 AA cases.

1. 2534
2. 2521
3. 2532
4. 2529
5. 2518

Max 2534
Min  2518
Avg  2526
S-D  7.0

100 grain FMJ Wolf  Steel Cased

1. 2625
2. 2622
3. 2620
4. 2608
5. 2602

Max 2625
Min  2602
Avg  2615
S-D  9.8

107 grain Hand Load SMK, 28.5 IMR8208XBR CCI 41 Hornady cases.

1. 2650
2. 2664
3. 2666
4. 2665
5. 2648

Max 2666
Min  2648
Avg  2658
S-D  8.8

The last rifle we tested was a 24" Alexander Arms 1:9 twist 6.5 Grendel chrome moly barrel with Millet scope.


120 grain HP BT PPU

1. 2546
2. 2558
3. 2584
4. 2554
5. 2553

Max 2584
Min  2546
Avg  2559
S-D  14.6

110 Grain FMJ PPU

1. 2700
2. 2680
3. 2681
4. 2678
5. 2680

Max 2700
Min  2678
Avg  2683
S-D  9.1

123 Grain A-Max Hornady

1. 2574
2. 2563
3. 2580
4. 2557
5. 2570

Max 2580
Min  2557
Avg  2568
S-D  9

123 Grain SST Hornady

1. 2587
2. 2582
3. 2575
4. 2590
Only 4 shots

Max 2590
Min  2575
Avg  2583
S-D  6.5

123 Grain Hand Load Nosler CC 31.0 Grains CFE 223, CCI 450, Hornady cases.

1. 2623
2. 2608
3. 2624
4. 2622
5. 2618

Max 2624
Min  2608
Avg  2619
S-D  6.5

100 grain FMJ Wolf Steel Cased.

1. 2691
2. 2684
3. 2697
4. 2701
5. 2702

Max 2702
Min  2684
Avg  2695
S-D  7.4

107 Grain Hand Load SMK 28.5 IMR8208XBR, CCI 41, Hornady Cases.

1. 2745
2. 2737
3. 2717
4. 2707
5. 2739

Max 2745
Min  2707
Avg  2729
S-D  16.1


123 Grain Hand Load, Nosler CC, 28.5 Accurate 2520

1. 2531
2. 2543
3. 2542
4. 2487
5. 2552
6. 2549
7. 2544
8. 2557
9. 2541
10 2555

Max 2557
Min  2487
Avg  2540
S-D  20.1
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 11:33:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Thanks for all the data and posts.  Lots to think about.  Honestly I don't think there's a bad choice...though I do feel 300BO is at the bottom of the pile.  I may just stick with my original PA10 .308.  I handload and can build DOPE that I trust even if it does drop a bit.  I wouldn't take any shot I wasn't comfortable with.  I think it's between that an 6.5 Grendel.  Though I like the idea of a new caliber and something in between 223 & 308.  It would give me a new round to tinker with but probably the most expensive option
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 11:41:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was in the same spot and chose 6.5 Grendel. To me, it's the ultimate hunting cartridge for an AR. The magazine capacity is still good, the ballistics are unbeaten, the factory ammo selection is awesome, and the components are becoming more plentiful.

You can get Hornady SST ammo for less than a buck a round, and you can get wolf steel case ammo for less than 25 cents a round. With my 18" barrel it's capable of taking game to 400yds, and is very effective on animals. I have dropped 2 black bear and 2 mule deer with it. One bear was 300lbs and got dropped hard by 1 shot at 130yds.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/277473/20160928_184506_resized_2_-288143.JPG
View Quote
What does that gun weigh as shown?
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 11:51:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Had the same thoughts and building a 6.5Grendal for a Deer and Antelope which will also be great for sod puppies, coyotes and hogs when I go south.
Most of my shots are in open country and out to 600yds and the 6.5 Grendel is fully capable of getting out there.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 12:20:06 AM EDT
[#27]
If you have kids the Grendel is a great starter round. I still have my  .308"s but to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I shot the AR10 and the 7400 was last used two years ago in the mountains to drop a buck in big timber. The part I think the  .300 Blackout shines at is cast lead bullets. But for hunting I'm not impressed. I'd rather have a 6.8 or 6.5 grendel.
Oh I do like the Grendel with 95gr Vmax for coyotes. It puts a little more hurt on them than the  .223 with a 50gr bullet. But makes about the same sized hole as the 75gr'ers out of the  .223. Whatever you decide have fun.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 12:41:09 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What does that gun weigh as shown?
View Quote
I believe 8 1/2 pounds. I'll weight it tomorrow to be sure.

18" barrel, 15" handguard, 4-16x optic, and a SOPMOD enhanced stock that weighs 12oz. So it's not a tiny gun, but it's very efficient, very comfortable to use and very light for it's size.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 1:48:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks for the replies. Shots will be mixed brush and open country, all under 300 yards but most at or under 100
View Quote
450 Bushmaster is perfect for anything under 200yds. Longer shots can be taken, but bullet drop will become an issue. It works great on big northern white tails, and pigges further south, I can get Hornady Black for about $1.10 a round. If your looking for a something cheaper a 6.5 Grendel will work as well, and work well beyond 300yds.

Although I am going to be honest once you go with a big bore your probably will find anything smaller less than ideal. I have two Grendels one pistol and one rifle as well, but for under 200yds 450 bushmaster makes them DRT.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 7:53:37 AM EDT
[#30]
A hunting rifle that you are lugging through the woods and flats and that can easily reach out and touch something at 300, says to me 16" grendel with a medium to light  barrel for weight savings.  My 16" with nikon 2-7 scope barely makes the 7lb mark depend on stock choice. Bonus is that you already reload for your 308, get some dies and start rolling your own if so desired.  The 6.5 is pleasure to shoot compared to my dpms 308 and a far cry easier to carry since the latter tips the scales north of 10lbs.

Obligatory craptastic pic.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:57:36 AM EDT
[#31]
I would say that you don't have to pick the cartridge because its the best at any one or more or all parameter you want to measure.  You can pick the cartridge simply because it's interesting, historic, unique or just because you think it is cool.  So long as it is a legal cartridge for the species you're hunting go for it.  Just understand the cartridge's strengths and weaknesses, hunt within those, and do you part to ensure you can put the bullet where it needs to be when it counts.  I spent years hunting deer with a 410 slug gun because it was a challenge that interested me.  I spent the past two years hunting deer with a revolver because that interested me.  This year it will be 450 Bushmaster using my own reloads.

Pick something interesting!
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 9:39:35 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
http://i.imgur.com/dOBrPZW.gif

The Grendel fanboy are out enforce in this thread I see... But I won't argue the merits of that cartridge here. Its a good cartridge but I really really don't care.  It holds zero interest for me personally.

I would say that you don't have to pick the cartridge because its the best at any one or more or all parameter you want to measure.  You can pick the cartridge simply because it's interesting, historic, unique or just because you think it is cool.  So long as it is a legal cartridge for the species you're hunting go for it.  Just understand the cartridge's strengths and weaknesses, hunt within those, and do you part to ensure you can put the bullet where it needs to be when it counts.  I spent years hunting deer with a 410 slug gun because it was a challenge that interested me.  I spent the past two years hunting deer with a revolver because that interested me.  This year it will be 450 Bushmaster using my own reloads.

Pick something interesting!
View Quote
This is awesome advice

Life is too short not to have an assortment. Variety is the spice of life . I think I've settled on 6.5 Grendel. It sounds like the right fit in most aspects. I will have to acquire reloading components, including brass (300 BO or .308 would have allowed me to use existing brass) but that's life 

Feel free to continue the conversation though as I may be swayed
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 9:42:54 AM EDT
[#33]
I was in the same quandary awhile back and I went with the 308 in an AR platform, I have since gotten a second one so both me and my boy have one.  I have never dissatisfied with the 308, I have with the other calibers.

I recently went on a pig hunt and used a Grendel.  I had good shots on pigs, but never a one and done shot as the pig soaked up several shots where I believe my 308 would have been one and done.  I did like the Grendel and am interested in that being my next rifle, but it won't make the 308 a safe queen.

308 ammo is easy to get and it does the job!
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 10:36:54 AM EDT
[#34]
I have 2 6.8 rifles and love them. They have taken a bunch of deer out to 300 yards for me. Prvi has just started importing 110 grain fmj and bthp offerings.  I just bought 5 boxes of each to try out.
Starline has brass in production for reloaders.



Link Posted: 8/24/2017 10:46:32 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
http://i.imgur.com/dOBrPZW.gif

The Grendel fanboy are out enforce in this thread I see... But I won't argue the merits of that cartridge here. Its a good cartridge but I really really don't care.  It holds zero interest for me personally.

I would say that you don't have to pick the cartridge because its the best at any one or more or all parameter you want to measure.  You can pick the cartridge simply because it's interesting, historic, unique or just because you think it is cool.  So long as it is a legal cartridge for the species you're hunting go for it.  Just understand the cartridge's strengths and weaknesses, hunt within those, and do you part to ensure you can put the bullet where it needs to be when it counts.  I spent years hunting deer with a 410 slug gun because it was a challenge that interested me.  I spent the past two years hunting deer with a revolver because that interested me.  This year it will be 450 Bushmaster using my own reloads.

Pick something interesting!
View Quote
The only thing funnier than a "fanboy" is someone that will cry about it and then admit it's a good choice all in the same paragraph. We know it's a good choice, that's why it's being suggested. If his goal was to pop hogs at under 100yds and be as quiet as possible, then I would suggest 300blk. If his goal was to use a cartridge that is expensive, abusive on the shooter, and has lots of drop at his expected ranges, I'd suggest a big bore. It's all about the right tool, and the Grendel fits the job perfectly. Not one person is out shooting coyotes and hogs regularly with a big bore, it's not the right tool.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 10:47:42 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
That's true. I don't plan on suppressing or SBR so that eliminates some of the value of 300blk. For a hunting a rig a flatter bullet makes more sense, too. 

Too many choices. Which I guess is a good thing
View Quote
If you want to go with a big rifle, I'd get a PA10 in 308 - stainless bbl and railed complete for under $700.  If you want to stay with the AR15 platform, I'd get an upper in 7.62x39.  7.62x39 is a great round in an AR, BTW - way better than 5.56.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 11:56:01 AM EDT
[#37]
.308 is no hammer of Thor every time, and it will destroy a lot of your Thermal sights and scopes on the market in an AR10.

93 Hogs Down: Night hunting with the Armasight Zeus Pro 640 50mm Thermal Scope




6.5 Grendel:

Best of 2014 Hunting Successes, Night Vision & Thermal, Hog, Coyote, Bobcat Hunting


Hogs have a smaller vital zone than deer, much of which is protected by their scapulae.



A bad hit with a 7mm Mag will still have the hog running.  There is no statistical advantage to a .308 for killing hogs.  Recovered animals that were shot with both a .308 and a Grendel, where both projectiles were recovered in the off side under the hide corresponding with 2 separate wound channels.  One wound channel was larger, which was immediately assumed to the the 150gr .308 Soft Point, but instead, it was actually from the 123gr SST 6.5mm.

There is zero evidence that I have been able to find showing a terminal ballistics advantage to the .308 Winchester, and we know it has less hit potential right out of the gate, in addition to the extreme effects of secondary reciprocating mass impact on the breech and barrel extension, which resonates through the optics enough to rule out most of the scopes on the market as viable aiming solutions, the few that are tough enough to handle it usually in the $2000+ range for day optics.

Not sure where they are at with Thermals that will handle it yet, but it has been a known problem with the SR25 dating way back.  Especially for hog hunting, if you ever want to use a Thermal, don't get an ATN or any of the more accessible models with Chinese components.   I wouldn't get them anyway.

Look at the spring rate and carrier weight on an AR10 or SR25.  Once you get that mass moving, then reverse it in the fraction of a second and send it smashing into steel components on your rifle, the resonant wave through the gun spreads to everything attached to it.  Glass and Germanium lenses, electronic boards, wires, connections, tiny components, retaining rings, and battery boxes get violently shaken back and forth many times within a fraction of a second.

Look at the high speed photography videos of an AR15 or AR10 being shot in slow-mo.  Notice how the ejection port door rod will slide back and forth, or the magazine release button will bounce around in its channel in the lower.  Now think about all the components in an electro-optical aiming system being subjected to these forces.

Even the most well-funded units in the military who have COTS purchasing authority outside of normal channels felt this problem hitting them in the pocket, and also were concerned about aiming systems failing on them outside the FOB.  I know if I'm dropping $3500+ on thermals that I don't want it breaking under recoil.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 12:36:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The only thing funnier than a "fanboy" is someone that will cry about it and then admit it's a good choice all in the same paragraph. We know it's a good choice, that's why it's being suggested. If his goal was to pop hogs at under 100yds and be as quiet as possible, then I would suggest 300blk. If his goal was to use a cartridge that is expensive, abusive on the shooter, and has lots of drop at his expected ranges, I'd suggest a big bore. It's all about the right tool, and the Grendel fits the job perfectly. Not one person is out shooting coyotes and hogs regularly with a big bore, it's not the right tool.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://i.imgur.com/dOBrPZW.gif

The Grendel fanboy are out enforce in this thread I see... But I won't argue the merits of that cartridge here. Its a good cartridge but I really really don't care.  It holds zero interest for me personally.

I would say that you don't have to pick the cartridge because its the best at any one or more or all parameter you want to measure.  You can pick the cartridge simply because it's interesting, historic, unique or just because you think it is cool.  So long as it is a legal cartridge for the species you're hunting go for it.  Just understand the cartridge's strengths and weaknesses, hunt within those, and do you part to ensure you can put the bullet where it needs to be when it counts.  I spent years hunting deer with a 410 slug gun because it was a challenge that interested me.  I spent the past two years hunting deer with a revolver because that interested me.  This year it will be 450 Bushmaster using my own reloads.

Pick something interesting!
The only thing funnier than a "fanboy" is someone that will cry about it and then admit it's a good choice all in the same paragraph. We know it's a good choice, that's why it's being suggested. If his goal was to pop hogs at under 100yds and be as quiet as possible, then I would suggest 300blk. If his goal was to use a cartridge that is expensive, abusive on the shooter, and has lots of drop at his expected ranges, I'd suggest a big bore. It's all about the right tool, and the Grendel fits the job perfectly. Not one person is out shooting coyotes and hogs regularly with a big bore, it's not the right tool.
Chill fanboy.  The cartridge can be good and I can still get annoyed by its fanboy champions.  I hunt with a 10mm handgun and yet will rib all the 10mm fanboys every chance I get to.

Hunting is a recreation and I will be damn if I feel any need to try to find the "prefect" cartridge.  I hunt with the gun and cartridge I want to.  Sometimes I pick the inferior choice because I want the challenge.  Sometime I pick the overkill because I want to see what it will do.

I did not realize 6.5 Grendel fan boys were so sensitive.  I have a hard time thinking any of the big bore AR-15 compatible cartridges as abusive to the shooter but maybe I am not as delicate.  Don't be so serious have some fun with it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 2:55:29 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:
Chill fanboy.  The cartridge can be good and I can still get annoyed by its fanboy champions.  I hunt with a 10mm handgun and yet will rib all the 10mm fanboys every chance I get to.

Hunting is a recreation and I will be damn if I feel any need to try to find the "prefect" cartridge.  I hunt with the gun and cartridge I want to.  Sometimes I pick the inferior choice because I want the challenge.  Sometime I pick the overkill because I want to see what it will do.

I did not realize 6.5 Grendel fan boys were so sensitive.  I have a hard time thinking any of the big bore AR-15 compatible cartridges as abusive to the shooter but maybe I am not as delicate.  Don't be so serious have some fun with it.
View Quote
Don't throw stones and then get defensive when they get thrown back. Facts are being posted here, not feelings.

People that whine about "fanboys" are just that, whiners. He asked about variants that fit in an AR15 that are worthy of taking game to 300yds, he's getting answers for that. Just because your favorite thing hasn't been posted doesn't mean you need to come in here and shit on other peoples suggestions. We're all here for the same goal, no need for animosity.

Sorry for swaying off topic OP, I'll ignore the trolls now.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 2:59:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 3:38:03 PM EDT
[#41]
For the record, I have decades of trigger time with 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester in substantial volumes, not even including the belt-fed weapons, so I have a very acute awareness of what the .308 is capable of, and what penalties come with it.

From that perspective, people might wonder why I no longer use it, and am completely satisfied with the performance of 6.5 Grendel in comparison to it.

The twist rate of the Grendel might be one of the most overlooked factors in its performance on game, but to be honest, an 85gr+ projectile with proper construction hitting medium game through the vitals or CNS at more than twice the speed of sound is going to kill them.

It's easier to get those hits with 6.5 Grendel than it is with .308 Winchester.  Practical performance, as you can see from the videos I posted between the 2, is similar, seems to actually favor the Grendel.  There were a lot of hogs that ran after getting hit in the neck and behind the shoulder with a .308 though.  Go watch it and see.

I can build and buy whatever I want exactly how I want it.  So after decades of experience with many different cartridges, why do I choose not to shoot .308 Winchester anymore?
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 4:04:54 PM EDT
[#42]
edit - sarcastic comments removed

The 375 SOSOM sounds really cool. As does the 35 caliber wildcat based on the 7.62x39 that a member did previously. Both would be expensive to feed, but fun.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 5:29:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The only thing funnier than a "fanboy" is someone that will cry about it and then admit it's a good choice all in the same paragraph. We know it's a good choice, that's why it's being suggested. If his goal was to pop hogs at under 100yds and be as quiet as possible, then I would suggest 300blk. If his goal was to use a cartridge that is expensive, abusive on the shooter, and has lots of drop at his expected ranges, I'd suggest a big bore. It's all about the right tool, and the Grendel fits the job perfectly. Not one person is out shooting coyotes and hogs regularly with a big bore, it's not the right tool.
View Quote
.458 is most definitely a hog round.

OP, 6.5 G probably suits your needs the best.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 5:53:01 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


.458 is most definitely a hog round.

OP, 6.5 G probably suits your needs the best.
View Quote
I would agree that it's very well suited for taking hogs, but most of what I see is shoot one hog, then blast away at running hogs. With 458 Socom your mag capacity is very low, price per round and recoil are very high (relatively). It just doesn't seem like an efficient choice for that task.

It all boils down to what you'll be doing with it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 6:55:51 PM EDT
[#45]
I do like my grendel and my 308, even my 6.8 but the latter two get a lot less range time when cheap ammo is readily available  when you just want to have fun at .24 cents a pop.  Hunting wise it all costs about the same if your not a reloader.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:44:47 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:


I would agree that it's very well suited for taking hogs, but most of what I see is shoot one hog, then blast away at running hogs. With 458 Socom your mag capacity is very low, price per round and recoil are very high (relatively). It just doesn't seem like an efficient choice for that task.

It all boils down to what you'll be doing with it.
View Quote
FWIW, the .375 SOCOM has half the recoil of the 458 and has a good 100 yards of extra range on it, not to mention WAY more knock down power than the 6.8 or 6.5.  I can't imagine needing more than 15 rounds in a typical hog hunting situation.  Additionally, factory ammo is readily available from MidwayUSA.

Tony
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 9:18:18 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:


FWIW, the .375 SOCOM has half the recoil of the 458 and has a good 100 yards of extra range on it, not to mention WAY more knock down power than the 6.8 or 6.5.  I can't imagine needing more than 15 rounds in a typical hog hunting situation.  Additionally, factory ammo is readily available from MidwayUSA.

Tony
View Quote
375 Socom is a very neat cartridge that I like the idea of. But factory ammo is $3 per round, versus 23 cents per round for wolf Grendel ammo, which is what I might use for hogs if I had the opportunity. I'll take a wild guess and say recoil is double? The price is between 3 and 13 times more, and mag capacity is around half. Obviously energy is way more, but dead is dead when you make a good hit.

For some guys none of those may matter to them, which is just fine. But that stuff is important to most people I'm guessing.
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 12:56:15 AM EDT
[#48]
I have been switching from 308 to the Grendel, its a fun little round. I noticed that my 16" grendel with optic,sling and loaded 10 round mag was only about a half pound heavier than my Ar10 empty without optics.   I think a 16" 6.5 would be perfect for what you are looking to do.
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 1:09:36 AM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:
FWIW, the .375 SOCOM has half the recoil of the 458 and has a good 100 yards of extra range on it, not to mention WAY more knock down power than the 6.8 or 6.5.  I can't imagine needing more than 15 rounds in a typical hog hunting situation.  Additionally, factory ammo is readily available from MidwayUSA.

Tony
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Quoted:
Quoted:


I would agree that it's very well suited for taking hogs, but most of what I see is shoot one hog, then blast away at running hogs. With 458 Socom your mag capacity is very low, price per round and recoil are very high (relatively). It just doesn't seem like an efficient choice for that task.

It all boils down to what you'll be doing with it.
FWIW, the .375 SOCOM has half the recoil of the 458 and has a good 100 yards of extra range on it, not to mention WAY more knock down power than the 6.8 or 6.5.  I can't imagine needing more than 15 rounds in a typical hog hunting situation.  Additionally, factory ammo is readily available from MidwayUSA.

Tony
Tony,  I have a lot of respect for all the effort you've put into the SOCOM cartridges, uppers, components, and I have an intimate understanding of much of what this entails.

Before I run the numbers, I'm going to say pretty confidently that the .375 SOCOM does not have the retained energy of a 6.5 Grendel at 200yds.  It might have more at 100yds though.  It won't have the point blank range, and the expansion difference between the two won't be drastic since Grendel has so much ogive length to peel/mushroom.  This is just my off-the-cuff guess based on the physics, not meant to be inflammatory at all.  When I ran the ballistics against .450 BM and .50 Beowulf, I was surprised as well.

OK.  I'll see what the numbers are now.  I find that the 200gr Sierra Pro Hunter has a .195 G1 BC at that speed, so it's going to shed energy terribly fast and drift, with slow Time of Flight for movers.

200gr Sierra Pro Hunter .375 SOCOM 16" AR15
0  2200fps  2149 ft-lbs
25yds 2097fps 1953 ft-lbs (devastating energy right there)
50yd 1998fps 1773 ft-lbs
75yd 1902fps 1606  ft-lbs this is still ~2x the muzzle energy of the hottest Buffalo Bore .357 Magnum pistol load I can find and just about what the Grendel has at the muzzle)
100yd 1808fps 1452 ft-lbs
125yd 1718fps 1311 ft-lbs (4" of drift and point blank limit with a 200yd zero)


16" Grendel 123gr Factory SST 2450fps
0 2450fps 1639 ft-lbs
25yd 2404fps 1578 ft-lbs
50yd 2358fps 1519 ft-lbs
75yd 2313fps 1461 ft-lbs
100yd 2268fps 1405 ft-lbs
125yd 2224fps 1351 ft-lbs

The 200gr Sierra Pro Hunter fired from a 16" AR15 has merely 47ft-lbs more energy at 100yds than the Grendel, then is overtaken for retained energy.  Grendel has more momentum from the start, faster ToF, and almost twice the no-hold zero/Point Blank Range of the .375 SOCOM. (16" Grendel/123gr SST has 225yd PBR with 200yd zero)

What kind of expansion are you getting with that bullet?  We see between .50 cal to .60 cal expansion, about 20" of penetration, with 81% weight retention average at 125yds with the 123gr SST.

The .375 SOCOM has pretty impressive energy at 75yds still, which might be a consideration for someone hunting something big at close range in the brush.  If expansion is in the .750 caliber region, that's a pretty brutal permanent wound channel, tearing a temporary stretch cavity with it.  I know a lot of the .375 bullets are meant for higher pressure magnum cartridges, so what kind of expansion are you seeing across the impact spectrum?  Any terminal ballistics like that being done?
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 8:30:39 AM EDT
[#50]
I'm not sure if comparing the best possible bullet fired in the Grendel, to the worst possible bullet fired in the SOCOM, is really a fair assessment.

A more reasonable comparison would be with the Maker 200 or 225gr Spitzer which expands over an inch.

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