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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/27/2003 1:38:05 AM EDT
I'm getting a PCR-1 ultramatch and I need a cheap yet good scope for it. I heard that this was the best deal. I would prefer mildot, though. I would also prefer 5-10x zoom....but I don't want to compromise the accuracy of my scope by getting a scope that does more at crappy quality. Can people verify that this would be one of the best deals for me, or also maybe give me some more options for good deals? I know many different sight manufacturers, but I just don't really understand when I'm looking at something quality or not or a good deal or not. So please give me a hand here - I want to get the right thing the first time around. And also please don't give any suggestions unless you really think you know what you're talking about.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 9:50:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2003 9:55:37 PM EDT by brasspile]
The ATN 5x33 is very good for the price. The variable power ATN are not so good. I have had random results with the lower end variable power scopes (tasco type, $100-$200). I did find that if I zeroed them on one zoom/power setting, and left it there, they held the zero a bit better. Also had problems with the clicks not clicking one at a time, for example, to go up 3 clicks, I would have to go up 5 then back down 2, and then it would almost 3 up, just little things like that get frustrating. If you are looking for something decent under $200, I would recommend that one for price/features/performance. The PCR-1 is a very accurate rifle, it deserves a optics that cost about as much as the rifle, but if you stretched to get the rifle, at least get a solid scope that will hold a zero. There may be other fixed power optics without the etched/illuminated reticle to look into, but some go much more expensive. I like the illuminated reticle simply because even in broad daylight a standard reticle will vanish when looking into a shaded area. Good bases/rings are important, too. The 'intended end use' is a very good question, also. Target shooting, plinking, hunting, under 100 yards, under 200 yards, under 300? etc. etc. --Edited to add there is a tacked thread at the top of the Optics page of "Best General Purpose Optics". Many of the models mentioned are very expensive, but you will get an idea after reading the page. Most people here would want an ACOG, me included, but they are Not Cheap.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 11:57:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2003 12:02:20 PM EDT by stuh505]
As for intended use, assume 100-500 yard target shooting and varmint hunting. Maybe in a few years I will be able to afford a $1000 scope, but not now. I definitely can't afford to spend more than this ATN would cost. I'm pretty much planning on getting this scope right now, but first I just want to check on the compatability and use of it. I noticed that it has a built in Bullet Drop Compensator (ATN 5x33L Professional). There is another version, the 5x33LU, which has 6 interchangeable cams for the bullet drop compensator. I found this explaning bullet drtop compensators: http://www.atncorp.com/compens.php3 The PCR is chambered for 0.223 caliber rounds, centerfire I assume, I'm not sure what grains. I am trying to look into what would be compatible and good for my purposes. The question is, would the 5x33L's built in bullet drop compensator work for this gun, or would I need to use one of the different interchangeable cams from the LU version, or would none of these BDC's work with this rifle? Do you think I could turn the BDC off, in the case that it does not have a setting for my rifle/bullet? And finally, would the 30mm rings that can be ordered with this scope work for the factory flat-top upper (i know that some of these have different spacing of the slots, etc), and would they be recommended, or should I look for a different higher quality set of rings? thanks guys
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 3:16:06 PM EDT
I have one on a 20" match Oly, works great. I do not use the BDC at all. I leave it set for 200 and, zero at about 250, using 55gr Black Hills Soft Point. I am within 3 1/2" of point of aim from muzzle out to about 300yds. If target is beyond that, I click it to 300yds and am usually good out to 450 or so, which is pretty far for having only 5 power on varmints. This gives me PBR of about 200-450-ish (kentucky windage involved on spotter shot sometimes with prairie dogs and smaller targets). Do not skimp on the rings. If you have an accurate rifle, and a solid scope, it is all useless if you spend $15 on a set of rings that do not hold scope true to bore all the time (after being bumped, etc.) I would say Millett at minimum (around $40), which would probably work for you. You would need to get the bases to fit a Pictanny rail (your flattop).
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:28:15 PM EDT
"I do not use the BDC at all. I leave it set for 200 and, zero at about 250, using 55gr Black Hills Soft Point." 1 - why don't you use the BDC?? it seems like it is doing the calculations that you could be doing on your laptop, without a laptop. all you gotta do is adjust the dial. so why dont you use it? 2 - if you have it set to 200m, then doesn't that mean you ARE using it, even if you're not actively setting it? I mean, if you leave it set to 200, would this not apply the bullet drop necessary for a 200m shot no matter what distance your target really was, thus making your shot completely innaccurate, and no better than a cheap ass scope that couldn't hold it's zero? "I am within 3 1/2" of point of aim from muzzle out to about 300yds." 3 - 3.5 inches! that's horrible! I thought this scope could hold a zero? Because it makes no sense to use a 3.5 MOA scope on a 1/4 MOA gun!!! But I dont understand how the scope could possibly perform so poorly. I would think even a $15 scope could be on target within a couple hundred yards...
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 11:42:12 AM EDT
I don't need or use a BDC either. 1. I shoot targets as practice for shooting people, not little tiny groups of holes (which is fun too) 2. Shooting people beyond ranges of 250-300 yards with a .223 is dangerous as they might have a rifle that is actually deadly at that range (like a .308). Making range estimations at ranges beyond 300 is difficult and every foot of drop is a pain. I live in a small city where if you can see 300 yards you're either standing in the middle of a street, standing on a roof or ridgeline, or the target is wearing hunter orange safety vests. A properly advancing camouflage wearing person wouldn't be caught dead at those ranges. Having said that I do have one of the x5 professional scopes mounted on an FAL. The BDC is calibrated for the .223 not the .308 but the range finder works just fine.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 12:41:23 PM EDT
This scope does hold a zero very well. I think you mis-read/mis-understood my post. The 3 1/2" PBR (Point Blank Range) is the maximum above/below point of impact for holding on a target. This is range dependent, and plenty accurate for my uses. It varies with height of sight above bore and cartridge/load. The AR itself will easily hold MOA/sub MOA on paper with the ATN. however: at muzzle: 1 3/4" low, bullet crosses first zero around 30 yards, at 100 yards, bullet is on rising part of trajectory to 1 3/4" high a bit past 100 bullet, then drops through 2nd zero again near 200 (what most people refer to as 'The Zero'), and continues to fall to 1 3/4" below point of aim around 260yds So, anywhere from the muzzle to 260 yds, the POI (Point of impact) will be within 1 1/4" of POA (point of aim), without having to guess range. This gives you a 3" 'zone' called 'point blank range'. If you are good with ranging with your eye, and you know target is 75 to 120 yds out, hold 1" low, and you will hit close to dead on. (knowing one inch is relatively easy if you know your various targets well, Crows for example). Crows are the only time I hold off to ensure a hit. When it comes to coyotes, a headshot fits into a 3" zone PBR, but you need to be a well practiced accurate shooter from a rest/bipod and have an accurate rifle. I hope this clears things up. When you need to make an quick and precice shot, you need to know the distance to target, and a general knowledge of where your rifle/load hits at various distances (range card or lots and lots of experience). You can correct much quicker with your eye than by turning a knob (what if you click the wrong way, or click two times? You will never hit). I also found the ATN BDC to be somewhat 'overcompensating'. When zeroed at 100 on the 100 setting, then switching to 200 ond shooting at 200, I was over 6" high. I use the ranging brackets (cut in half, inversely, small mount of math to range 'closer' distant targets well range of 200-300, where a lot of drop takes place with 5.56) I found it worked a bit better when zero on 200, then clicking to 300/350 puts me in the area of a 500yd zero. At and beyond 500yds, SoftPoint 55gr lose too much veloicity, and have failed to expand several times on me. I would not recommend > 400yd work for hunting with 5.56. Overall, my opinion of the ATN5x33: Fixed Power: Very Good Illuminated Reticle: Excellent Reticle layout: Good, wish it was based on 18" instead of 36", and add mil-dot option. Hold a Zero: Excellent, even after being tossed around Image Sharpness: Very Good. Brightness: Excellent for size BulletDrop Compensator: Set for 68gr match mil-spec ammo, which has nowhere near the ballistic curve of 55gr. Semi-Useless. Set at one range and learn your load. Add all of those together and consider the price, you are getting a very good deal for a <$200 Optic. Look at an ACOG fixed 4x, red-dot, fixed power, good light gathering... you are spending 4 times as much (although you don't need batteries). I am not saying this ATN is as good as an ACOG, I am saying that 5x is enough magnification for most situations.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 1:11:16 PM EDT
Oh, and what Paul said is excellent info. Missed his post. My next purchase will be either another ATN 5x, or an ACOG, but I cannot justify the price of the ACOG w/fiber backup, but love the idea of no batteries. The ATN 5x33 ranging system is similar to the Druganov system (36" brackets) I REALLY want ATN to make a mil-dot grid version of this little 5 power. I thought I would throw that in also to let you know I am comparing a $200 ATN 5x Scope when used to using NightForce, and find that the extra THOUSAND Dollars doesn't give you much until you get to distance work and want it to withstand recoil of a .50, and in any environment. I also have NightForce Scopes (8-32x56 and 5-15x56), these run from $1100-$1400. More than ACOG, so I am not "Anti-Variable Power". Just when you get under $300, Variable power is more of a drawback than a bonus, as it isn't needed. Fixed power helps you range better, as you always know the size of reticle/brackets (or even the thickness of the crosshair in a pinch) As for [b]Variable Power ATNs[/b], my glowing reveiw of the ATN 5x33 [b]Does Not Apply[/b]. Light gathering only good at the lowest power settings, zero drifts, not durable, poor eye relief, and a very annoying 'feature'. This is when you have the rifle zeroed, when you change magnification, the reticle MOVES opposite the direction you had to adjust to zero it. The POI is still at the center of the crosshairs, it is just that the center of the crosshair is no longer in the center of the scope. This is very unnatural and about impossible to get used to, as your eye naturally centers things. They say this is a 'feature' so the ranging brackets work on all magnifications that way. I do not think it is a good trade in that respect. To do this, they should have put the reticle behind the 'zoom lenses', and another reticle/ranging plate in front, so the brackets change size, but the reticle stays solid. (Similar to the [url=http://www.shepherdscopes.com/dual.asp]Sheperd Scopes[/url])
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 1:43:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2003 1:44:19 PM EDT by stuh505]
Brasspile + Paul, thanks for the info. You both say that you don't really like to use the BDC. I still don't understand how it is POSSIBLE to NOT use the BDC. I mean, if you set the BDC to 200 yards and just leave it there and never touch it, it seems like you will NEVER be able to make an accurate shot even if you know the exact bullet drop of your gun and range of your target... If you leave it set to 200 yards, doesn't this mean that your scope is going to have a slight downard tilt to it, that will cause all shots closer than 200 yards to shoot high, and all shots farther than 200 yards to shoot low? If you could set the BDC to 0m and THEN zero the scope, it seems like it would work...but if you can't set the BDC to a point blank range, then it seems like you are forced to use the integral BDC instead of any calculations you might make because it's going to be having an effect no matter what. Please correct me if I am somehow wrong about this.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 2:36:51 PM EDT
The BDC is nothing other than a ramped cam underneath the elevation adjustment. It just 'clicks up' the Zero for you based on a load (the LU version and variable power ATN's have interchangeable cam-ramps for different calibers). But they are not accurate enough to use, as they usually do not cover the load you are using. Better to make a range card, or remember generally where you hit. If you don't turn it, you aren't using it. So set it at 100 or 200 and leave it there, and you are effectively 'not using it' Setting it above 200 might limit your ability to zero at 200 The only reason I zero mine with BDC set to 200 is that way I remember what that rifle is zeroed for (some are for further). Otherwise, I would leave it at 100 and ignore it. Think of it as a target turret you don't turn. It is there, and if you don't turn it, you aren't using it. Does that make sense?
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 8:32:37 PM EDT
Ok I think I get it brasspile :)
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 9:13:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 9:15:08 PM EDT by Onslaught]
You guys are gonna laugh, but what about this one? [url]http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept%5Fid=180702&sku=SCP%2D402&imgid=&mscssid=990PMJ1MPUXA9J56XUDRP0AU3NSSDF60[/url] from Cheaper than dirt as an interim scope while you save for the Trij? It's a 5x42 compact scope made specifically for the AR. It has a BDC It has an illuminated Mil-Dot reticle It's < $70 And laugh as you will, it got a great review from the guys at the Maryland AR15 site... (although I can't find the review just now). If it's just for the range, and not for life-saving... and it's not a bad sight, why not? I'll be giving one a try after I get my AR project finished, and I'll post my own review. ;)
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 9:31:15 PM EDT
Onslaught, Looking at that scope I can't help but wonder if those are the same scope as the ATNs, or majbe ATN's seconds or something. Anyone know where BEC gets these?
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:52:52 AM EDT
That Cheaper Than Dirt scope is complete junk. I had one and would never stay adjusted. The internal adjustments were not solid single clicks but it was by tension of a small spring underneath. I gave it back to them and they told me they have had mega problems with them but would still sell them. I got my shipping fee refunded both ways + cost of the scope.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 8:03:24 PM EDT
Thanks for the heads-up DOA... I guess I too will be looking towards the ATN for an inexpensive yet "doesn't suck" scope for the range.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 8:09:32 PM EDT
Yeah, definitely thanks for sharing the wealth of knowledge. I would have ended up with a POS scope. I just ordered mine :)
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