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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/1/2005 4:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 4:15:22 PM EDT by 32ACP]
Given the choice of 124/127 gr HP vs. 147 gr HP (say Winchester Ranger--this is what I'm thinking of...) Which ammo would be your choice and why? I know what the gun rags tout---but I'm curious as to what folks are really carrying in their 9mm's. Not talking stocking up, etc.

The Fackler Folks say 147 (or even--get a .45)

The Sanow Folks say 115gr+P+

Not talking FMJ-- I think NATO would be best there.

Thanks for any help with this topic!
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:28:12 PM EDT
I use 147 grains for my Browning HP: my Argentine KRD 15 round mags have 5 of each of the following rounds in them:

1. Federal Hydra Shok - 147 grains
2. Remington Golden Sabre - 147 grains
3. Winchester SXT - 147 grains

just my personal preference
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:30:16 PM EDT
Why 5 of each?
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:28:50 PM EDT
Winchester Ranger RA9T rounds (147gr) will meet all of the FBI testing criteria and expand to .58-61 caliber. That makes it the best performing 9mm round. The top performing .45 caliber HP round does not provide much more expansion than the Ranger 147gr HP 9mm round. I prefer the 17rd capacity of my 9mm Glock 19 to the 8 rounds of .45 cal I get with a 1911 style pistol.

I see no reason to mix rounds in a magazine as the first two rounds are the most likely to be used in a violent encounter, these first two rounds should be the best ammunition available to you. If you pick the best round, RA9T for 9mm, then there is no reason to load less effective rounds in your magazine.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:32:24 PM EDT
Can't go wrong with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, either.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:01:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Can't go wrong with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, either.



It's what I carry too.

(Never had to use any on anyone though.)
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 11:03:23 PM EDT
+1 on the speer gold dot 124+p excellent accuray too
-sigadvantage-
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:35:11 AM EDT
32 ACP

I use a "cocktail mix" of

1st round - Federal Hydra Shok
2nd round - Remington Golden Sabre
3rd round - Winchester SXT

Then I repeat this mix 4 more times.

Why? If I ever have to "use" my pistol on multiple targets, this closest "threat" will get the Hydra Shok first, then so on.

I chose these three rounds, as well as the mix, along time ago, after doing a lot of reading on the "tested" effectiveness of reach round. From the information I came across, these were the three most effective rounds. I forget where I found the information, as the reading was done about over 5 years ago.

Again, this is just my personal preference.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:38:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Can't go wrong with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, either.



It's what I carry too.

(Never had to use any on anyone though.)


+1.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:45:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Opey:
32 ACP

I use a "cocktail mix" of

1st round - Federal Hydra Shok
2nd round - Remington Golden Sabre
3rd round - Winchester SXT

Then I repeat this mix 4 more times.

Why? If I ever have to "use" my pistol on multiple targets, this closest "threat" will get the Hydra Shok first, then so on.

I chose these three rounds, as well as the mix, along time ago, after doing a lot of reading on the "tested" effectiveness of reach round. From the information I came across, these were the three most effective rounds. I forget where I found the information, as the reading was done about over 5 years ago.




It strikes me as odd that you would be so concerned about effectiveness, but carry a .32.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:50:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Opey:
32 ACP

I use a "cocktail mix" of

1st round - Federal Hydra Shok
2nd round - Remington Golden Sabre
3rd round - Winchester SXT

Then I repeat this mix 4 more times.

Why? If I ever have to "use" my pistol on multiple targets, this closest "threat" will get the Hydra Shok first, then so on.

I chose these three rounds, as well as the mix, along time ago, after doing a lot of reading on the "tested" effectiveness of reach round. From the information I came across, these were the three most effective rounds. I forget where I found the information, as the reading was done about over 5 years ago.




It strikes me as odd that you would be so concerned about effectiveness, but carry a .32.






Originally Posted By Opey:
I use 147 grains for my Browning HP: my Argentine KRD 15 round mags have 5 of each of the following rounds in them:

1. Federal Hydra Shok - 147 grains
2. Remington Golden Sabre - 147 grains
3. Winchester SXT - 147 grains

just my personal preference



Opey never stated that his personal weapon is a .32 ACP pistol, he simply dirceted his post at 32ACP.

Reading is fundamental.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:04:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 7:04:54 AM EDT by NY_AR_Guy]
Another +1 on the 124 gr +p speer gold dot.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:05:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Opey never stated that his personal weapon is a .32 ACP pistol, he simply dirceted his post at 32ACP.

Reading is fundamental.



Ahh. They don't call me "Rodent" for nothing. I have the I.Q. of a muskrat.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:08:26 AM EDT
No flame intended Cityslicker, but why do you and so many others feel you have to answer for others?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:36:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 9:37:21 AM EDT by Colt_SBR]
I agree with Azalin

Winchester Ranger 147gr. SXT (RA9T). My department issued this round to us when we carried 9mm's. I still use it in my back-up/off duty Glock 26.



Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:55:37 AM EDT
+10 on Speer 124 Gold Dot +P. Issued round for NYPD. Get it by the case at the range. Gotta be an instructor, though.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:26:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 3:31:13 PM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By bill1962:
No flame intended Cityslicker, but why do you and so many others feel you have to answer for others?



Fair question.

I try and help out. If someone is unable to respond, I see no reason why I shouldn't do so for them until they return, unless of course I am asked to cease and desist.

Hope this answers your question.

By the way, you can call me Justin.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:26:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Opey never stated that his personal weapon is a .32 ACP pistol, he simply dirceted his post at 32ACP.

Reading is fundamental.



Ahh. They don't call me "Rodent" for nothing. I have the I.Q. of a muskrat.

..

Now that was funny!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:05:14 PM EDT
I have a mag full of Corbon +P+ 115's in my desk gun. Those are the ones most likely to be called upon to save my life.

I have Stocked up on the followinng:
Winchester 147 BLACK TALON [500 or so rounds - found at an estate auction]
Federal Blue-Box 115 gr hi-shok [not hydra shok, more than 1k rounds]

If I am "turning out" to defend my neighborhood vs looters, for example, The Glock with the Black Talon's would be my choice - if for some reason I chose not to use the .45.

If I am eqiuipping someone else that isn't a familiar as I am, they get an XD9 and the Federals - easier recoil, less report, etc...

As a practical matter, I don't believe that even Win White Box 115's would be *ineffective* in a situation that required the use of deadly force. Granted, it might require 2-3 rounds to provide the same level of incapacitation as the latest $1 per round wonder +++ ammo, but One is much more likely to PRACTICE with the cheap stuff.

I love those guys that have some +P+ in there ICOE mag but practice with WWB or Geco, and then are shocked at how much different the recoil and POI for the hot stuff is..
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:12:56 PM EDT
Thanks, all, for the info.

Frankly, I've got a mix of 9mm--CorBon 115+P in my Glock 19 & 26 and Kahr PM9, Federal HydraShok 124gr+P+ in my Glock 34, Winchester Ranger 127+P+ in my SIG 226....

I purchased several hundred rounds of each over the past several years.....as I get older, I think--the cartridge that recoils the most probably hits the target hardest---and the heavier rounds seem just seem to make more sense.....Deeper penetration means a better chance of hitting important organs.....Never was good at physics, ballistics, etc.--just thinking out loud.

So now I'm looking to get 147gr Rangers.....

Then I think about the police and SWAT-types in Europe and wonder why they're all using FMJ and wonder if the HP's are really worth the extra cash......

Thanks again!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 5:20:38 PM EDT
As a general rule, heavier rounds will penetrate further among two similar bullet styles. Many people feel that you should shoot the heaviest bullet that your gun will shoot well.
I guess that would be 147 gr for 9mm
230 gr for .45 acp

I don't know, personally I don't think that there is alot of difference. I would steer clear of 115 grain 9mm though unless you plan on using fmj.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 6:56:51 PM EDT by Buck_Naked]

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:
As a general rule, heavier rounds will penetrate further among two similar bullet styles. Many people feel that you should shoot the heaviest bullet that your gun will shoot well.
I guess that would be 147 gr for 9mm
230 gr for .45 acp

I don't know, personally I don't think that there is alot of difference. I would steer clear of 115 grain 9mm though unless you plan on using fmj.



Not to side track the thread, but...

I generally subscribe to the heavier bullet is better theory, but a thread in the Handgun>Ammunition forum about the performance of heavier rounds in shorter barreled guns got me looking into the Cor-Bon 160 Gr. DPX Compact Gun (.45ACP) load for my Glock 30. I think barrel lengtj might be a consideration in bullet choice as well. I am curious about the performance of one particular round in say a Glock 26 and how it performs against the same round in a Glock 17.

Dave

ETA: From this thread here:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=162042


Also wildly popular are subcompact versions of the Glock and now the Springfield XD as well. Most of the 9mm cartridges until recently suffered the same problems as the .38 in that they were designed to expand in a velocity envelope best reached with full size pistols. From a 3.5" barrel for example, many loads just don't perform well. But the Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ as well as the Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot seem to perform pretty well from these shorter barrel lengths. In fact, in tests performed in ballistic gel, expansion is not much less than in full size handguns. These loads have been refined to near perfection by Winchester and Speer and offer excellent, consistent performance over a range of velocities. If I wanted a round for a 9mm with a barrel under 4", I would give the nod to the 127 gr +P+ Ranger. The 147 gr Ranger, although not as fast, still does well also in smaller pistols. It also has less recoil and muzzle blast than the +P+ load. Both are good and it's honestly hard to pick one over the other. If the Ranger is hard to find, the Speer load is also an excellent choice that offers performance that rivals that of the Ranger. Either of these 3 loads perform well and would be my top choices for a subcompact 9mm.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:26:36 PM EDT
Thanks for that info and thread.

I seem to recall reading that a pistol barrel loses about 80 fps per inch of barrel--but I may be wrong about that.....

The lighter bullets in shorter barrels still seems to be about the "light and fast" vs. "heavy and slow" which is why I keep CorBon 115gr+P in my shorter barrel guns like my G26 and PM9. I'm just wondering aloud if this makes sense. The FBI tests suggest otherwise. The latest trend in gun mags is that any decent caliber with decent ammo will get the job done if you're up to the task. I think this is true, but caliber must figure into this somehow or the military wouldn't be looking at the .45ACP again. I don't know that most gun writers (except guys like Peter Kokalis) really have any more real-world shooting for defense experience than Joe and Jane ARF readers have....

But I also know that--all things being equal (which they never are) I'd grab a rifle before a pistol...and (I think) a SIG 220 before a Glock 17--so I'm wondering if the heavier bullets would be better in 9mm--specifically, the Winchester Ranger 147. I've just ordered some and will give it a try.

All this aside, I don't ever recall reading about a hooligan complaining about what it was shot with....unless the shot placement was poor....
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:19:31 AM EDT
I'm going with Black Hills 124gr +P's with gold dot bullets...

makes my Colt SMG happy...
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:22:13 PM EDT
I don't keep any HP 9mm ammo. FMJ is much more reliable and will put a hole in you just as well as HP.

My subguns are 100% reliable with FMJ so that what I stick with. Also, most of my SHTF 9mm is Hirtenberger +P+.....it'll ruin your day.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:08:32 PM EDT
tommygun2000--I read that the Hirt 9mm isn't safe for pistols....have you ever tried it in yours?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:09:12 PM EDT
I personally think the Win SXT 127 +P+ is a darn good choice - you get expansion and penetration that's right up there with the 147 SXT, and you transfer a lot more energy. Winchester's new 124 SXT +P should be a good one as well, and might not be as hard on alloy frame guns. Then again, NYPD has been VERY pleased with their Gold Dot 124 +P, so that's probably not a bad choice either.

Regards,

Kevin
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:57:48 PM EDT
good choices most of you, but how do these rounds perform in real world operational environments from dedicated secondary handgun weapons systems. i am using bullets that go beyond mere sensativity to body temperature. my bullets can actually detect the "malice level" of my assailant. if he actually meant to kill me the round will fragment violently. if he was only trying to intimidate me it will penetrate intact allowing a speedy recovery. i start with a wax ball and cover it with antimony/lead alloy and a copper jacket. then i propel the 40gr 9mm bullet at 3000fps REVOLUTIONARY!

maybe we should all go out and shoot some pot roast and report back on our findings
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 3:42:20 PM EDT
Actually, that was funny....

I am thankful that nobody mentioned LeMas BMT crap.....
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:09:59 PM EDT
In my full-size 9mm's, I also vote for the Gold Dot 124+P. Very accurate & reliable! In the compact jobs, I lean toward the 'lighter/faster' notion & go with Remington 115+P's. Seems to me I have read several accounts of how the highly-touted 147gr 'wonder bullets' were supposed to be the cat's meow and all that, BUT they proved to be VERY barrel-length sensitive and didn't expand reliably out of anything shorter that 4.5 in. I'm merely taking that theory and extending it to my 3.5 in compacts!

That's my story & I'm sticking to it!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:45:23 PM EDT
Gold Dot 124 +P
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 10:24:15 PM EDT
So if I took advantage of a good deal, and only later realized that the 124 gold dots were NOT as recm'd as the 124+P version, would they be worth holding onto - or should I burn them up at the range to make sure hollowpoints feed 100% reliably?

Local store was closing them out, $8 a box
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:32:13 AM EDT
124's don't shoot good for me but the 147 's do so, it's a no brainer.... 147
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:48:38 PM EDT
Where are you buying Speer GD 124 +P??? I can't seem to find any around here.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:57:40 PM EDT
I have a lot of speer gold dots and also golden sabers, 124 gr. How would you guys rate these rounds in the non +P flavor (which is what I have).


I also have a small amount of corbon 115 +P's but I like the 124 gold dots and golden sabers better at the range. What say arfcom?


I have really been thinking about trying out the Winchester Ranger SXT 147 gr ammo. I have a glock 19, how would they work in that barrel?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:02:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 32ACP:
Given the choice of 124/127 gr HP vs. 147 gr HP (say Winchester Ranger--this is what I'm thinking of...) Which ammo would be your choice and why? I know what the gun rags tout---but I'm curious as to what folks are really carrying in their 9mm's. Not talking stocking up, etc.

The Fackler Folks say 147 (or even--get a .45)

The Sanow Folks say 115gr+P+



Well, color me a FACKLER kind of guy. Based on RESEARCH (mind you, not what I *FEEL* would be best), it's:

147 Rangers
147 Gold Dot
124 +P Gold Dot

The latter two have been commented on by either Dr. Gary Roberts or the Firearms Tactical guy - I can't remember which. The basic premise was: The 124 +P Gold Dots if you gun has a barrel LESS than 4", and 147 otherwise. The shorter barrel has less velocity, so you would benefit from the higher starting velocity.

The Rangers are just too hard to get a hold of. I roll my own Gold Dots - they're $15/100 at Sportsman's Warehouse (cheapest place locally)
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:25:53 PM EDT
Real men use 45's
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VanekSF1:
Real men use 45's



OUCH! thats gonna leave a mark! but then i carry a officers model 45 too.

and like one guy said, " the first and second round is what counts the most so why not make it a big one.


why did the 115 gr +P+ loads fall out of favor? i though those were the bomb?


Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:40:59 PM EDT
Some days I'll carry my Glock 36.....other days I carry my Kahr PM9....really depends on what I'm wearing and can carry. Either choice is better than the .32ACP I used to carry....I realized I was delusional to think a 32ACP would be a reasonable choice if I needed a gun---frankly, it worked once--but I think I was very lucky.....

I think many folks still swear by the 115gr +P+--heck, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a CorBon....I think that like Zhukov and others pointed out--FBI data and other data support the use of heavier bullets that penetrate deeper.

I started this thread to see whether folks bought into the gun mag reports of "light and fast" being better than "heavy and slow." I appreciate the input from all--thanks!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:13:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 6:14:19 PM EDT by B-trash]
I vote for the Winchester 147 gr Ranger RA9T

Our Departments issued load is the Winchester 147 JHP white box load. Winchester sales rep came out and did FBI gel test of the Ranger loads and used our duty load as a base line to compare. When it was all said and done, there wasn't that much difference between the 147 JHP white box load and the Ranger 147 load. The 127 +p load is good also.

We have about 1,100 officers and have been using this load since we switched to auto's in the late 1980's. Do you job with shot placement and it will work.

For SHTF and for my off duty usage, I like the Ranger load, keep 200-300 on hand. But if I wanted to stock up in larger qunaities, than I might go the the white box load only due to price.

For what it's worth, I used to read every gun magazine out there. The more shootings I resonded to, the less gun magazine articles on "one shot stopping power" I read...

Just my .02 worth

Beat Trash
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:50:52 PM EDT
when i carrier a 9mm i followed the light and fast theory because of the compiled data at that time, early 1990's. the faster the hollow point struck tissue the more damage it did, in regaurds to the temporary streach cavity.

i can certainly appreciate the deeper penetration theory as well. since a lighter buller will frag faster and not reach the vitals. such a trade off. i guess thats why they came up with the double tap. thats the way i practice self defense shooting nowdays.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:53:27 PM EDT

Chalk up another vote for Winchester RA9T (147gr Ranger). The others mentioned commonly in this thread (both Gold Dot weights, and the RA9TA Ranger in 127 +p) are great rounds too, and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable at all trusting my life to them. But in the end of reading everything I could about the subject, I ended up deciding on the standard-pressure 147gr Ranger.

The only real downside is price and availability, but I feel the cash outlay is worth it, and you can find it a few places online (and at gunshows). I usually keep my stockpile at around 250-500-ish rounds (I shoot it fairly regularly at outdoor ranges, both for practice with my carry round and to cycle out carry ammo that's been out in mags too long, but I the bulk of my range shooting is done with cheaper 115gr FMJ win white box).

Of course, don't confuse the real Ranger rounds (RA9T, RA9TA) with the Winchest "SXT" defensive rounds you commonly see sold on sporting goods store shelves to joe consumer. They've not even close to the same round.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:20:25 AM EDT
Has anyone tried or have info on Federal XM9002A 147gr H.P.?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:36:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 9:39:59 AM EDT by ops144]
winchester white box/remington umc...

this is my shtf ammo...

both shoot basically the same in my g-17

its cheap and easy to come buy....

any decent ammo is better than no ammo at all....


for self defense"home 9bp hp... 50 round boxes is extreamily accurate
out of my glock..
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:30:51 AM EDT
I would disuade anyone from using yellow box UMC for SHTF ammo. I have had a lot of experience with this ammo and everytime I shoot it I get blown out primers. IMO, the 124grn Speer Gold Dot represents the pinnacle of defensive 9mm ammo. I use the BH 124grn +P Gold Dot as its faster than Speers loading. The edge that the Gold Dot offers over any of the Ranger bullets is its bonded core, which will make a huge difference if you are shooting at a vehicle. In a SHTF situation, the extra penetration will be negligible and the higher pressure loading already decreases some of the risk of this. I keep 10 Beretta 15 round magazines loaded with the BH Gold Dots and 4 Mecgar 15 round magazines loaded with IMI 124 grn +P FMJ rounds incase of a barricaded target. I use the

Mecgar so I can feel the difference in the mag bodies so I know what I am loading...these happen to be very, very, very high quality mags, every bit as good as OEM Beretta. I personally don't subscribe to the 147grn 9mm theory as I feel its a bit antiquated, however I do have several boxes of WWB 147grn HP's which I shoot recreationally or at varmits and I always have a decent supply, just in case. I have found that the WWB JHP rounds are actually fairly decent and would certainly work for a defensive round, especially in an emergency. Just about any HP will be

superior to any FMJ in wounding ability. Ideally, you would have selected a defensive round that you belive in and trust and stockpile enough to load up a bunch of magazines and still have some extra, but if lack of money prevents this, get as much of the good stuff as you can and supplement it with any of the Winchester White Box offerings. check out the firearms tactical webstie for more information of 9mm ammo performance.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:14:21 PM EDT
wierd ive never had any issues"lucky?"

my glock likes it
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