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Posted: 12/28/2003 2:01:03 PM EDT
OK, say we wanted to make the ultimate load for an AK caliber rifle, say for police duty.

Assume that the officers will have access to different loads if hard-target capability is needed; this is strictly for the felon standing there shooting.  Maybe soft armor, maybe leather, maybe a T-shirt.
They just might have to take a shot through interior walls at times, though, during entries.

What would this look like?  
Would you use an existing bullet?
If not, what would you ask Hornady to design for you?
Your design framework velocities are:

110 grain @ 2650
130 grain @ 2500
150 grain @ 2300

Any thoughts?

Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:57:08 PM EDT
LEO only uses factory ammo.  The liabilities of using hand-loaded ammo are too great to risk in court!!!!


And, to answer your question, the AK-74 round uses a hollow-voided tip bullet.  This increases the bullets ability to yaw (tumble) repeatable before exiting the hard target and once it fragments at the cannel during it's first yaw on impact, the fragmented pieces create at separation on impact, cause excessive damage before exiting.

To even create even more damage, the bullet plating can be scribed /scored. This will cause more of the bullet front section to separate than just at the cannel, which leads to more tissue damage caused by the bullet before exit.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 3:02:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dano523:
LEO only uses factory ammo.  The liabilities of using hand-loaded ammo are too great to risk in court!!!!
View Quote


I do not believe that this is a real issue, just something Massad Ayoob came up with to sell books.


And, to answer your question, the AK-74 round uses a hollow-voided tip bullet.  This increases the bullets ability to yaw (tumble) repeatable before exiting the hard target and once it fragments at the cannel during it's first yaw on impact, the fragmented pieces create at separation on impact, cause excessive damage before exiting.
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I appreciate your help, and the trouble you took, I really do.  But this speaks nothing to the question.

Again, if you were to design an anti-personnel bullet and loading for the 7.62x39, what would it look like?
Would you look to fragmentation, mushrooming, or what mechanism, given the low velocities.
How would the bullet be constructed, what weight, etc.

I take it you would make a light-front bullet with a pre-scored jacket; what weight?

Thanks again;

Larry
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:26:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dano523:
This increases the bullets ability to yaw (tumble) repeatable before exiting the hard target and once it fragments at the cannel during it's first yaw on impact, the fragmented pieces create at separation on impact, cause excessive damage before exiting.
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The 5.45x39 does NOT fragment. The wound channel is inferior to the M193.


Ohio,

The best anti-personnel load would be the Winchester 123gr Super-X SP.  I doubt I'd have one specially made when that load is available.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:32:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
The best anti-personnel load would be the Winchester 123gr Super-X SP.  I doubt I'd have one specially made when that load is available.
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It being the most effective, do you have a handle on just [b]how[/b] effective that might be?

I haven't tests that quantify it; just that it and the Lapua load are the best of possibly a bad lot.

What is driving this in my mind is that the M43 round hasn't really had a fair shake; it has been compared to the 5.56 with effective bullets, while the M43 round has usually had steel jacketed crap bullets.

Supposedly the Yugoslavoan M43 ball frags, but I don't know where any references would be.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:44:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2003 4:44:47 PM EDT by brouhaha]
That was your post #666...


I hope you don't mind a cut and paste from DocGKR:

[red]Winchester 123 gr JSP in Bare Gel:

vel=2253 f/s, pen=14.4”, rd=0.56”, rw=90.1gr

Pretty much the same results when going through car windshields[/red]

[blue]Lapua 125 gr JSP
Out of a 16” barrel:

Bare Gelatin: vel=2316 f/s, pen=17.3”, RD=.62”, RL=.43”, RW=122.6 gr

Car Windshield: vel=2323 f/s, pen=14.8”, RD=.60”, RL=.40”, RW=110.6 gr
[/blue]


That's about all the data I have at the moment.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 6:46:33 PM EDT
Thanks, and one more question.  I am not really up on the esoterica of the gelatin tests, but this places both of these in the "not bad at all" range, right?
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 7:47:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Thanks, and one more question.  I am not really up on the esoterica of the gelatin tests, but this places both of these in the "not bad at all" range, right?
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That or "pretty damn good"  [:)]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 8:02:08 PM EDT
Beautimous.

Thanks a lot!

Larry

Link Posted: 12/28/2003 8:45:39 PM EDT
Corbon has also come out with a 7.62x39 round specifically for self defense.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:12:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:10:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Thanks, and one more question.  I am not really up on the esoterica of the gelatin tests, but this places both of these in the "not bad at all" range, right?
View Quote


Actually, it places them in the "nearly as good as *good* 5.56mm in most situations, and considerably better than any 5.56mm through auto glass."
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Actually, I'd consider the Winchester load an excellent performer, better than M193.  Close to, if not on par with 75/77gr 5.56mm loadings.

The entrance wound is about .310".  After about 1.5" it expands very quickly and drops about 33 grains in fragments.  Penetration ends at about 14.5", where the diameter of the expanded 90gr round remenance is about .56".

For comparison:

M193: Entrance wound is .223", after about 3-4" it yaws and fragments, dropping about 20-30 grains in fragments.  Penetration ends just shy of 14", where the diameter of the round is only slightly higher than when it entered.  Usually around .30".

Hornady 75gr: Entrance wound is .223", after about 1.5" it yaws and fragments, dropping about 40-50 grains.  Penetration ends just shy of 14", where the diameter of the round is variable between .30"-.45".

Through auto glass, there is no comparison, the Winchester 7.62x39mm is clearly superior.  To have decent combat effectiveness against autoglass in 5.56mm, you have to give up significant damage in "normal" conflicts.  Intermediate barrier penetration is about the only thing the 7.62x39mm does positively better than 5.56mm.

The 6.8mm should bridge this gap.  Keeping recoil, round counts (how much you can load/carry), weight, accuracy, flat trajectories, wind resistance, etc. all on par or better than 5.56mm and 7.62x39mm, while gaining precious combat effectiveness against intermediate barriers and longer distance targets.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:38:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Thanks, and one more question.  I am not really up on the esoterica of the gelatin tests, but this places both of these in the "not bad at all" range, right?
View Quote


Actually, it places them in the "nearly as good as *good* 5.56mm in most situations, and considerably better than any 5.56mm through auto glass."
View Quote


Actually, I'd consider the Winchester load an excellent performer, better than M193.  Close to, if not on par with 75/77gr 5.56mm loadings.
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Not to flame - but isn't that EXACTLY what Troy just stated?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:41:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:06:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 10:08:27 PM EDT by wyv3rn]
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Originally Posted By Troy:
Actually, it places them in the "nearly as good as *good* 5.56mm in most situations, and considerably better than any 5.56mm through auto glass."
View Quote


Actually, I'd consider the Winchester load an excellent performer, better than M193.  Close to, if not on par with 75/77gr 5.56mm loadings.
View Quote


I'm pretty sure we agree...  [:D]

-Troy
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Sorry, I guess my tired eyes read it with the wrong intent.  Much of the ammunition group-think in this forum has an anti-7.62x39mm bias.  And rightly so, as 7.62x39mm is generally a poor performer in all but a few loads.  It just hasn't benefited from the latest innovations in bullet technology.  It's not a good platform to create "match" rounds with thin jackets for any kind of serious competition.  As we all know, the terminal performance of the latest 5.56mm ammunition was a biproduct of making 5.56mm into a competition round.  Until recently, I was guilty of this bias myself.  My anti-7.62x39mm sensors were probably set a little too sensitive when reading the posts here.

After revisting the data awhile back, I changed my mind on 7.62x39mm, some loads atleast.  The winchester load is really exellent, but lacks the long reach of 5.56mm 75/77gr loads.  It also has marginally higher recoil and (at the risk of being flamed for my preference) lacks a platform as good as those available for 5.56mm to be deployed from.  Despite all this, it can do one thing superbly that the 5.56mm just can't without sacraficing everything else that makes it great.. penetrate intermediate barriers.

This is why I really can't wait for 6.8mm SPC.  It seems that much attention has been focused on how much bigger of a wound channel it will create in an unarmored human target; I guess we just won't be happy until that channel is 10" wide.  To me, the most important aspect of the 6.8mm SPC is the gaps it fills (most importantly - intermediate barrier penetration, ex. windshields) in the 5.56mm while making very little in the way of compromises.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 2:51:38 AM EDT
Georgia Arms has a Nosler Ballistic Tip 125gr/2400fps.
[url]http://www.georgia-arms.com/precisio.htm[/url]

Dave S
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:33:53 AM EDT
RE the Noslers; what is the construction on these?
I would love to see some gelatin results of these as well, but an informed opinion would be really nice too.

I worry about Noslers, the construction of different bullets with the same name varies; and the descriptions don't really tell us what we need to know reference anti-personnel use. I think the company is a little sensitive on that front.

They talk of eithe "deep hunting penetration" or "light varmint bullets and violent expansion".  Neither of these is quite what we want, and what we want could be called either if the intent is to be PC.  I just don't know which it is.

Larry
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