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Posted: 9/20/2004 2:04:18 AM EST
I want to build an ar plain jane A2 style to just shoot russian ammo. At first I was going to have it in 5.56nato then I started to think(1st mistake) if I was to shoot Russian ammo only why not build it in 7.62x39. The only reason not to do this that I can come up with is mags . Is there something else I should be aware of? Is anyone making a reliable 7.62 ar magazine now that the ban is over?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:48:03 AM EST
Colt used to make an AR in 7.62 x 39... you may be able to find some on the 'Net, but expect tp pay through the nose for'em.

Another option may be to modify AR .223 mags with Ruger Mini-thirty followers.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:08:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By passgas55:
... Is anyone making a reliable 7.62 ar magazine now that the ban is over?



For 10 rounds, the best mag I've found is the polymer one that DPMS sells. (MWG or something like that?) FWIW, DPMS makes brand new 7.62x39mm uppers & complete rifles in a variety of configurations (as do other manufacturers IIRC). Complete Colt rifles may be scarce/pricey, but the Colt upper conversion kits are still pretty widely available.

I'm sure that someone will reproduce the USA "Frankenmags." Despite USA's reputation otherwise, these were very reliable (albeit ugly in many eyes) high-capacity mags for 7.62x39mm ARs. I have two such ARs with 16" bbls (and did have a third with a 20"), and the USA 20s and 30s have been utterly reliable. I recently bought some other mags here on EE which look more traditional (USGI shape, but with straight walls) that are supposed to be reliable, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:57:27 AM EST
As of 2 hours ago DPMS was out of barrels. The still have the Bolts. I'm doing this same project right now. I getting this lower: www.ar47.com and a DPMS upper. I talked to mike and he said the best upper is the DPMS Lo pro- it has .25" side walls that can be milled for the wider AK mags. HTH
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:31:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 6:49:45 PM EST by passgas55]
After looking at the mag situation and can't find a hard chrome bore I will build an 5.56 20" A2 style hard chrome bore plane jane ar just for shooting ruissan ammo 62 gr HP. Thanks for the info. I have 3 sks I will keep for 7,62x39 duty.
Edited to say that I went thru allmy spare parts and forgot that I had a complete upper A2 20" 5.56that I had for years and had no use for it since it was a 1/10" twist. I also had a spare C2 stock , trigger group and assorted smallparts. I will layout everything and see what is missing. I picked up a stag lower last month.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:58:55 PM EST
Amen on the Frankenmags! I tried two of the "Sporter" type mags; no luck, two of the DPMS 10 round mags and they work good but I wanted more capacity...found a couple of the USA Hybrids and as you said, they are ugly, but they feed Great ! Right now they are running around 35 bucks on Gunbroker, but maybe they'll come down if USA starts making them again.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:15:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By passgas55:
I want to build an ar plain jane A2 style to just shoot russian ammo. At first I was going to have it in 5.56nato then I started to think(1st mistake) if I was to shoot Russian ammo only why not build it in 7.62x39. The only reason not to do this that I can come up with is mags . Is there something else I should be aware of? Is anyone making a reliable 7.62 ar magazine now that the ban is over?



Because (a) mags are unreliable, and (b) it's a piss poor round...

The only advantage it has over .223 is price...
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:59:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Because (a) mags are unreliable, and (b) it's a piss poor round...

The only advantage it has over .223 is price...



Everyone is entitles to their opinion, but the 7.62 x 39 is far from a "piss-poor" round.

It's terminal ballistics are similar to the venerable .30-30 Winchester, the round with more deer kills to its credit than ANY other.

It does lack the speed of the .223/5.56, but has a bullet that weighs twice that of the .223, which more than compensates for the speed difference.

As far as advantages go, the 7.62 x 39 is available EVERWHERE in the world, whereas the .223 is not. There isn't a country on this planet, third world or other-wise, where the 7.62 x 39 can't be found.
That reason is the one that keeps my Ruger Mini-Thirty in the gunsafe...
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 3:33:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 3:35:54 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By cdr680:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Because (a) mags are unreliable, and (b) it's a piss poor round...

The only advantage it has over .223 is price...



Everyone is entitles to their opinion, but the 7.62 x 39 is far from a "piss-poor" round.

It's terminal ballistics are similar to the venerable .30-30 Winchester, the round with more deer kills to its credit than ANY other.

It does lack the speed of the .223/5.56, but has a bullet that weighs twice that of the .223, which more than compensates for the speed difference.

As far as advantages go, the 7.62 x 39 is available EVERWHERE in the world, whereas the .223 is not. There isn't a country on this planet, third world or other-wise, where the 7.62 x 39 can't be found.
That reason is the one that keeps my Ruger Mini-Thirty in the gunsafe...



If the 7.62x39 is found all over the world, wouldn't it be a safe bet to assume that the AK47 is the best one to have if going around....... as it's all over the world...... Someone did say that the AK47 replaced the British Enfield as one of the most common weopons.....

Easier to pick up a mag from a "dead target" then unloading ammo to put into some other mag. The AR47 would be interesting.......
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:51:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 4:53:37 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By cdr680:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Because (a) mags are unreliable, and (b) it's a piss poor round...

The only advantage it has over .223 is price...



Everyone is entitles to their opinion, but the 7.62 x 39 is far from a "piss-poor" round.

It's terminal ballistics are similar to the venerable .30-30 Winchester, the round with more deer kills to its credit than ANY other. .30-30 is also known for terrible ballistics, it just happens to be the old-timer's round of choice... As those folks hang up their lever-actions, .308 (another example of a good round (just not a good assault weapon round)) will eventually take that crown. Too much arc/drop, poor accuracy, and a nice little .30cal hole at the end, unless you use expanding ammo. We are essentially talking about an obselete caliber, which was replaced in front-line military service by a .220 caliber round back in 1974. The countries still using 7.62x39 are all, esseintailly, running off the ex-USSR's leftovers.

It does lack the speed of the .223/5.56, but has a bullet that weighs twice that of the .223, which more than compensates for the speed difference. .223 produces much worse wounds than 7.62x39 or 30-30 due to fragmentation.

As far as advantages go, the 7.62 x 39 is available EVERWHERE in the world, whereas the .223 is not. There isn't a country on this planet, third world or other-wise, where the 7.62 x 39 can't be found. Hardly. Since every NATO country uses 5.56mm, any place in the 'first world' where such ammo is legal for civillian sales will have it. And if 5.56 is illegal, 7.62x39 will be too... As for a possible 'disruption in supply', reloadable .223 is alot cheaper than reloadable 7.62x39, indeed when you exclude Russian products, .223 in general is cheaper than 7.62x39. Unless you are going to Iraq or similar, this will stay the case. And if you're going there, the US Govt will keep you supplied with .223 or .308, weapon dependant

That reason is the one that keeps my Ruger Mini-Thirty in the gunsafe...

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:10:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By cdr680:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
It does lack the speed of the .223/5.56, but has a bullet that weighs twice that of the .223, which more than compensates for the speed difference. .223 produces much worse wounds than 7.62x39 or 30-30 due to fragmentation.




Fragmentation of a .223? Let's go ask the wild boar I killed about fragmentation, since I had to hit it 5 times to kill it. The first round that struck the pig was mortal, going IN AND THROUGH the lungs....but all that fragmentation, or lack thereof, caused the wound channel to be small, whereas a .30cal hole would have faired a little differently. Just my .02.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:51:48 AM EST

It is true that .223 is used by NATO, but 7.62x39 IS available in EVERY country, legally or otherwise. The military adopted .223 to give the grunt more ammo for the same weight- the difference in bullet weight alone, for a standard combat load of 300 rounds, is 3.4 pounds. Given that, the grunt can carry twice the amount of .223 vs .308 for the same weight penalty.

As to price, every Internet source I've searched and in every gun show I attend, .223 is at least 1.5 times more expensive than 7.62x39, including the Russian stuff in both calibers. If there is a source that is cheaper, share it with the community. As far as reloading either one goes, I can't do it cheaper than I can buy them already made, even considering the prices.

Regarding fragmentation, .223 does not fragment in FMJ configuration (aka military hardball); it TUMBLES on impact. This was designed into the round to compensate for the lesser static shock versus that of the .308- which by the way is most definitely NOT an inaccurate round. Just ask a USMC sniper or Camp Perry competitor.
All military hardball, regardless of caliber, will leave a "caliber size" hole, unless bone is hit. Using a frangible or expanding bullet does increase temporary wound cavity size, but that applies in all cases. Using a larger bullet will result in a larger temporary wound cavity; the size and weight makes up for the speed differences.

.223 would not be my choice for hunting anything larger than coyotes, unless I limit myself to headshots only, and I sure wouldn't use it on hogs! I've seen our local walking bullet traps soak up hits from a .300 WinMag and keep going! For those critters, I use my Beowulf now.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 5:02:53 PM EST
I had every thing to build another ar15 in 5.56 nato. The barrel I had was a 20" ss 1/10twist. All I need was $30 in small parts to finished. I got my parts in, shot the rifle today using silver bear 62gr sp. I had no problem after sighting in at 50 yards that my first 5 shot group at 100 yards was dead on all within a 3" circle . With open sights at 100 yards I was shooting better than my SKS scoped at 50 yards. Now the question is if my just rebuilt ar was in 7.62x39 and I was to shoot 100 yards can I expect close to the same in a tight pattern ? I was going to use my SKS for feral hogs but I am not because it looks like a shotgun pattern at 50 yards. I shot 6 hogs so far with my flat top ar all head shots behind the ear.Reloads 64 gr win power points going at 2800fps, sighted in to shoot out your eye balls at 100 yrds. I want to try something diffrent but I need to be able to hit a good head shot . I need to move on this soon.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:48:32 AM EST
You might want to look into the 6.5mm Grendel or .50 Beowulf uppers. The Beowulf is a real thumper and the Grendel really looks promising (should get my Grendel upper this week?).
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:45:13 PM EST
I have a 300 whisper all set up with a bilock gemteck silencer sighted in for subsonic 220 gr. What I may do is shoot with suppressor off , resight in with 150 gr sp at 2000fps and keep track how many clicks on my scope to bring it back close after the hunting season. Then this spring I may look into a round for my to for feral hog hunting.(I always looking for an excuse to try something new but I am out of time this year). I am leaning towards one of them 6.8 cal. I need to do more research as for as how easy it is to get brass and bullets for what ever round I get.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:57:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By cdr680:
It is true that .223 is used by NATO, but 7.62x39 IS available in EVERY country, legally or otherwise. The military adopted .223 to give the grunt more ammo for the same weight- the difference in bullet weight alone, for a standard combat load of 300 rounds, is 3.4 pounds. Given that, the grunt can carry twice the amount of .223 vs .308 for the same weight penalty.

As to price, every Internet source I've searched and in every gun show I attend, .223 is at least 1.5 times more expensive than 7.62x39, including the Russian stuff in both calibers. If there is a source that is cheaper, share it with the community. As far as reloading either one goes, I can't do it cheaper than I can buy them already made, even considering the prices.

Regarding fragmentation, .223 does not fragment in FMJ configuration (aka military hardball); it TUMBLES on impact. This was designed into the round to compensate for the lesser static shock versus that of the .308- which by the way is most definitely NOT an inaccurate round. Just ask a USMC sniper or Camp Perry competitor.
All military hardball, regardless of caliber, will leave a "caliber size" hole, unless bone is hit. Using a frangible or expanding bullet does increase temporary wound cavity size, but that applies in all cases. Using a larger bullet will result in a larger temporary wound cavity; the size and weight makes up for the speed differences.

.223 would not be my choice for hunting anything larger than coyotes, unless I limit myself to headshots only, and I sure wouldn't use it on hogs! I've seen our local walking bullet traps soak up hits from a .300 WinMag and keep going! For those critters, I use my Beowulf now.





You haven't read much on the subject, have you...

Military 5.56mm (a) does not tumble, (b) does fragment, and (c) this was not a design feature, but rather an added bonus...

Also 'static shock', 'kenetic energy', and 'stopping power' are all bunk...

Plenty of folks on this board have killed wild pigs with a single .223 shot...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:02:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lapp_Dance:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By cdr680:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
It does lack the speed of the .223/5.56, but has a bullet that weighs twice that of the .223, which more than compensates for the speed difference. .223 produces much worse wounds than 7.62x39 or 30-30 due to fragmentation.




Fragmentation of a .223? Let's go ask the wild boar I killed about fragmentation, since I had to hit it 5 times to kill it. The first round that struck the pig was mortal, going IN AND THROUGH the lungs....but all that fragmentation, or lack thereof, caused the wound channel to be small, whereas a .30cal hole would have faired a little differently. Just my .02.



Hunting-use .223 does not fragment, nor would you want it to...

M855, M193, and esp Mk262 *DO* fragment...

Also, certain (rather popular, around here) AR configurations with short bbls sacrifice fragmentation in 55gr and 62gr loads for weapon size....
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:37:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By cdr680:
It is true that .223 is used by NATO, but 7.62x39 IS available in EVERY country, legally or otherwise. The military adopted .223 to give the grunt more ammo for the same weight- the difference in bullet weight alone, for a standard combat load of 300 rounds, is 3.4 pounds. Given that, the grunt can carry twice the amount of .223 vs .308 for the same weight penalty.

As to price, every Internet source I've searched and in every gun show I attend, .223 is at least 1.5 times more expensive than 7.62x39, including the Russian stuff in both calibers. If there is a source that is cheaper, share it with the community. As far as reloading either one goes, I can't do it cheaper than I can buy them already made, even considering the prices.

Regarding fragmentation, .223 does not fragment in FMJ configuration (aka military hardball); it TUMBLES on impact. This was designed into the round to compensate for the lesser static shock versus that of the .308- which by the way is most definitely NOT an inaccurate round. Just ask a USMC sniper or Camp Perry competitor.
All military hardball, regardless of caliber, will leave a "caliber size" hole, unless bone is hit. Using a frangible or expanding bullet does increase temporary wound cavity size, but that applies in all cases. Using a larger bullet will result in a larger temporary wound cavity; the size and weight makes up for the speed differences.

.223 would not be my choice for hunting anything larger than coyotes, unless I limit myself to headshots only, and I sure wouldn't use it on hogs! I've seen our local walking bullet traps soak up hits from a .300 WinMag and keep going! For those critters, I use my Beowulf now.



haven
Military 5.56mm (a) does not tumble, (b) does fragment, and (c) this was not a design feature, but rather an added bonus...

Also 'static shock', 'kenetic energy', and 'stopping power' are all bunk...

Plenty of folks on this board have killed wild pigs with a single .223 shot...



Early 5.56 ammo didn't fragment unless it hit a large bone, but ALL 5.56 tumbles on impact; the later renditions do indeed fragment to a degree.
As to killing hogs with a .223, I never said it couldn't be done; I said I wouldn't choose it, unless I limited myself to headshots. In the woods I hunt in Florida, a headshot isn't always an option. I've seen hogs killed wirh .22 Magnums as far as that goes, but there are better choices.
Regarding reading on the subject, I've done considerable. It appears we have read topics by different authors, with widely disparate opinions, so let's agree to disagree. However, one thing every article I've read has stated is static shock and kinetic energy are decidely not bunk as you insist, but most agree that stopping power is, while not "bunk", at a minimum a subjective term, likely coined by the gun press in the 70's.
Kinetic energy is defined as: "The energy associated with a moving object. The kinetic energy of the object is equal to one-half the product of its mass times its velocity squared (KE = 1/2 mv2). "
(chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/glossary/k.html)
This kinetic energy is, in turn, transferred to static shock, upon impact with an object, animate or otherwise.
In short- and grossly oversimplifying-, it is these two physical forces, in addition to blood loss that causes death and is likely where the term "stopping power" was coined.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:50:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By passgas55:
I want to build an ar plain jane A2 style to just shoot russian ammo.



If cheap ammo is your goal, you might look into getting a .21 Ghengis from Alexander Arms. It is chambered for 5.45x39 Russian and uses standard AR15 mags.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:54:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Griz:

Originally Posted By passgas55:
I want to build an ar plain jane A2 style to just shoot russian ammo.



If cheap ammo is your goal, you might look into getting a .21 Ghengis from Alexander Arms. It is chambered for 5.45x39 Russian and uses standard AR15 mags.



Just be sure to use the older "tilting" followers - the anti-tilt followers can be problematic for the 5.45x39mm in an AR mag (yes, I have one of these too ).
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:31:09 PM EST
Well how much speed is lost on the 5.45x39 when you have a 16" versus 20". I know the 7.62x39 is only at the most 50fps.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:04:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By passgas55:
Well how much speed is lost on the 5.45x39 when you have a 16" versus 20". I know the 7.62x39 is only at the most 50fps.



Almost none. Its designed around this barrel. All quoted velocity figures for ammunition should be from this barrel.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:00:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 12:01:46 AM EST by Sako92S]
This is what you need:
Ar-47 lower with RRA 2-stage trigger group
Colt 16" chrome lined 7.62x39 barrel with Smith Enterprises break
SOCOM Mfg side charger flat top upper
DPMS free float tuber
ACOG 1.5x sight or Aimpoint (other picture)
ACE stock
AK mags, drums and lot of ammo

Colt chrome lined barrel is the best choise for building an Ar-47 rifle.
You can shoot surplus ammo with no worries.

I have also Colt 7.62x39 flat top upper with my M16 lower (no picture)

http://www.takkumaki.net/Images/Ar47_1.jpg

http://www.takkumaki.net/Images/Ar47_2.jpg
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