(Yes, we have reports of certain users on foreign soil switching to the 65G after experiencing that they'd been sold a bill of goods.)


| 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. |

www.65grendel.com

Originally Posted By Owenslee:


Please provide a credible source, link, or publicly published statement corroborating this assertion.

Otherwise such comments remain biased and unsubstantiated here-say....in a technical thread.

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:


Who is using what does not belong on an open forum.
John, and anyone else, please keep the military out of this.
Keep on topic in this regard, you never know who is reading an open forum.

Originally Posted By Loki_308:
As a preface, I've got a DPMS .308 and a LMT 5.56, so I do not have a horse in this race.

As a seperate preface, I would suggest that "better" should be judged for a given application in terms of whether a given round is more able to accomplish the purpose of the shooter than the other round.  Variations that do not result in a change in that ability should be considered a tie, and thus not dispositive.

It seems that there are two primary arguments going on here with regard to performance (ignoring the availability/industry support issue):  

1.  The Grendel round is superior to the 6.8 SPC (in any incarnation, be it SAAMI or SPC II) past 600 yards.
2.  The 6.8 SPC round in its current incarnation (SPC II/DMR) is superior to the Grendel round for short range (<300 yards) and SBR applications.

Contention 1:  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that contention 1 is pretty much not in dispute.  Some debate the importance of that distance, but for distance shooting, the 6.5 is superior to the .308 in terms of its retained energy (ballistics info based upon factory 168gr. loads in the .308 vs. the 123gr scenar load in the Grendel).

Contention 2:  With regard to contention 2, it appears a little less settled.  Again, there appear to be two seperate parts to this:

Contention 2A:  The 6.8 is better for distances under 300 yards

A number of people have stated that the rounds are for entirely different purposes.  While it's certainly apparent that many people believe this to be true, is there significant evidence that the Grendel is substantially inferior <300 yards?  Granted, the Grendel is less optimized than the 6.8 for the range, but is it inferior to the 6.8?  I've seen no evidence in this thread that points to that conclusion.   If there's no significant difference in performance at under 300 yards between the Grendel and the 6.8, then this would seem to be a tie.

Contention 2B:  The 6.8 is better for SBR applications.

There's some suggestion, it appears, that the "best" way to compare these two rounds is to try to find comparable loadings and then compare muzzle velocity.  But this seems the wrong way around––the Grendel has a MUCH lower velocity drop per inch of decreased barrel length when using the heavier loadings (i.e. the 123gr. Scenar or the 129gr. SST).  To compare at 100gr is near the top end of the 6.8 and near the bottom end of the 6.5, possibly handicapping the 6.5.  Note the difference in MV drop between the 16" and 14.5" barrel on a 90gr. vs the 123gr. load.  So, I think it would be more helpful to look at the best SBR load in the 6.8 vs. the best SBR load in the Grendel.  Again, does anyone have this information?  If there's no significant difference in performance, then see the end of 2A.

Sorry to be so long-winded.  I'm interested in getting an upper chambered in one of these rounds, and I would find answers/responses to the above-discussed issues very enlightening.

LR

Originally Posted By Cohibra45:


Dave,

I believe that this is really at the crux of the original question.   Which cartridge will the military adopt?  "6.8SPC or 6.5G? Which one should I buy?"  If the military were to adopt either one, that in most everyone's mind would answer the question.

Of course, no one knows (or is talking) anything.  If, and that is a HUGE "IF" , the military does decide to adopt one of these rounds, that will mean just like the 30-06, 308, 556, 45, 9....etc will be available anywhere and EVERYWHERE!!!  The other cartridge, no matter how good it really is, will be the 'red headed step child' and as such, be relegated to the back seat.

I'm sure that there are several small groups of troops 'testing' both rounds, but, no one will ever really know as these tests are more than likely 'classified' and the people cannot reveal anything.  That said, upon completion of said 'field' test/use, if the military would want to pursue this further, then RFP's would be issued and the cat would be out of the bag.

I do believe that both rounds, with all the testing (by private individuals and originators combined), are very good rounds.  For 99.99999% of the individuals that are contemplating purchasing one or the other, either one would be a very large step over the 556.  For serious long range target shooters, neither will be the cartridge of choice.  All you have to do is look at the latest 1000yd world record.  It wasn't by either one of these rounds.  Just because a cartridge can shoot that distance, doesn't make it the best choice for that particular venue.  Both are able to punch paper to most any distance wanted.  Yes, the BC of the 6.5G bullets are better (for some,not all), which theoretically makes them superior; however, both are extremely accurate out of each platform.  It will be down to shooter ability, not which bullet has the better BC or stays supersonic out to a million miles.............The SHOOTER will be the deciding factor!!!  

That said, both of these are an intermediate game round.  Yes, both have taken large game in the recent past (and probably will again), they are basically a medium game, ie., deer/hogs/coyote/antelope type round.  And they both do that really well!!!  

So you see, it really does come down to "If the military does adopt a new cartridge", which one will it be???  Again, NO ONE KNOWS THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!  So everyone should chill and enjoy.  One thing I can guarantee about the future of either cartridge being adopted by the military..............it will be a long wait.  Military testing and acceptance is 'slower than molasses in January'.  If and when testing starts, it could take years (literally) before any decision gets made, and even then, they just might do as they have in the past and adopt a wait and see attitude if it 'needs' another cartridge.

Man, if I could only read my cloudy crystal ball.............I could make the proverbial fortune!!!!!!

Cohibra45 (Kelly)

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:


Let me ask you this, does it REALLY matter if the military uses one or the other?  Not to me, but historically, it does to a lot of others!!!
If both cartridges already, as you stated, perform quite well, does it really matter?  Again, not to me.
For the majority of my shooting I will use a 5.56x45mm, because it's an excellent round with many fine loads available.
Now the Russian SPETSNAZ field 5.45x39mm.......should I grab a 5.45x39mm gun because their Special Forces uses that?
What about 5.8x42mm? Should I try to get a US manufacturer to make an AR in 5.8x42mm because PLA Spec Ops units use that?
Would 9x39mm be better for home defense? What about 7.62x45mm?

If you found out US Spec Ops units were using the Grendel or SPC today, right now, would you want to run out
and buy it? Would one be more Tacticool than the other? Would you want their issue pistol as well? What about if
the Federal Russian Army was considering adopting one as a replacement for their 5.45x39mm? Would that have
any bearing on your selection?  Dave, I was just considering history when relating to military adoption of a certain cartridge, it usually becomes much more popular than cartridges not adopted.  The only cartridge I can think of being the exception is the 30-30.

I have never advocated the Grendel for military use and I doubt it will ever see general adoption by Big Green. I highly doubt
the 6.8 SPC will either. The US Army would be much better served by improving their marksmanship training than selecting
a new cartridge, but I doubt that will happen either.

People have been talking military adoption for 5 years now. Maybe instead of worrying about that you should just select
a cartridge (5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.5mm Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39mm or whatever floats your boat) which best serves
your needs and enjoy it. Besides, you can change from 6.8 to 6.5 or vice versa with a simple barrel/bolt/mag swap......
There is no Magic Cow or Holy Grail. Learn to shoot well instead of chasing after the perfect bullet.  Like I said, I'm not worrying at all.......I personally could care less about either one.  There are others out there, that for them, it does matter.  However, like I tried to make the point earlier, your point is extremely similar to what I thought I said.  Maybe you didn't understand my post or I failed to communicate using the correct wording/grammar but, and I quote from my earlier post "I do believe that both rounds, with all the testing (by private individuals and originators combined), are very good rounds.  For 99.99999% of the individuals that are contemplating purchasing one or the other, either one would be a very large step over the 556."   I thought that we were both in agreement.  Both are great rounds for their abilities now.....get either one, shoot and be happy.

As an old USMC Sniper instructor once growled to me, "It's the Indian not the arrow"

Originally Posted By Cohibra45:

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Kelly,

No I do agree with you that the next US military cartridge will become very popular on the US commercial market.
The only modern brass cased centerfire US military cartridge which hasn't has been the old .30-40 Government.
To be honest, currently neither the 6.5 or 6.8 are big sellers volume wise compared to the 5.56. I am frankly somewhat
surprised that one or the other has never really taken off. But they haven't I suspect this is largely due to the lack of
extremely inexpensive ammunition. I believe that is what truly drives today's market.

Originally Posted By GPalmer:

This appears to be somewhat off topic again since we're not comparing the 6.5 and 6.8 to the 5.56. So far as either cartridge getting economies of scale due to military adoption since the 6.8 SPC is the only one still in the running for our military services, it would appear to be the only one this might happen for. Personally I judge that likelihood to be slim. That's my personal opinion though, I still bought in spite of that. I think both cartridges will tend to occupy their little niches and continue to coexist and thrive going forward. Of course there is also the LEO market which might be interested but I haven't heard a lot about them. What would be a better driver for civilian use would be more people hunting but the percentage of the population that hunts is on the decline so far as I know. Hunting would pretty much split between the cartridges though since they're going to have roughly the same range as a hunting round.

Originally Posted By bwaites:

The 6.5 rifles are manufactured by smaller group, but by generally very well respected builders,

and the factory ammo comes from 3 sources, Alexander Arms, which loads several different loads, Wolf, which manufactures two cheap loads, one of which is pretty much declared junk even by the 6.5 guys, and Black Hills, which manufactures a hotter load than AA with a good projectile.

Both cartridges perform very well at what they were designed for, both cartridges overlap each other.

I would dare the 6.8 guys to run into a firing line of the "not so great from inside 300 yards" 6.5 Grendel.
I would dare the 6.5 guys to stand at 400 yards and let the "not so great outside 300 yards" 6.8 SPC fire at them.

Finally, trying to answer these questions objectively is impossible here on the board, and the task and question posed here is a fools errand. It cannot be answered any better than the .270 vs 30-06 war over the best deer cartridge. All answers have some subjective bias. All answers can in no way be completely objective.

Originally Posted By Glane5910:
Looks good enough for me. Either you're BS'ing about not being a good shot or just being modest. Not too many can put groups in like those that aren't pretty decent with a rifle out of shear luck..

Originally Posted By jh308:


Thanks, not BS'ing.  I just have a good barrel that will shoot all day if I do my part.  I currently only have two other rilfes that will shoot like this all day long.  One's a WOA barreled .223 and the other is a Kreiger Criterion barreled .308.  There's a guy on 68forums w/a WOA bbl that was shooting a in the 0.6xx's and 0.7xx"'s @ 200 yrds.  I'm almost ashamed to post my groups next to his.

Originally Posted By jrswanson1:


That takes lots and lots of practice and a good rifle.  The more you shoot the better you'll get, and if you get some training, you'll get even better, as the trainer can spot things you're doing wrong and help you correct them.  

Jim

Originally Posted By Tested:
Anyone have both these rifles of similar quality? Interested in doing a side by side shoot down for accuracy?

Originally Posted By Tested:
Anyone have both these rifles of similar quality? Interested in doing a side by side shoot down for accuracy?

Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:


I own the entire range of ARs in the calibers in question (including .308).  My own personal favorite is the 6.8 SPC (I have three and one more building), followed by the .308 (I have two in this caliber), then the 6.5G (I only have a 24").

I like the 6.8 for it's ability to push the light weight bullets at very high velocity (for the barrel length).  I get over 2800fps with the Barnes 85gr TSX from my 10.5" barrel.  That is what I call utterly fantastic!

The .308 I like for it's ability to sling mid to heavy weight .30 cal bullets out to 600 yards with relative ease, and gives me a big game cartridge that has obviously proven itself over the decades.  Oh yeah, it's very freaking accurate to boot.

The 6.5G is what I would use to shoot the tiniest of groups out to 600-800 yards or so.  I can print one ragged hole groups at 100 and nearly 200 yards all day long with this cartridge.  It and the 6.8 both have very mild recoil, which I don't really notice compared to even 5.56 loads in the same platform with the same rifle setup.  The bullet selection for killing dots is utterly the best.  If it had a bit more velocity, it would be the ultimate cartridge IMHO.  Of course, something in the larger platform (AR10 type) would be better suited to achieve this velocity...

In true ARFcom fashion, I didn't just buy both.  I got all three.  And I like each one for their own little differences and my own personal preferences in how and where I primarily hunt.  They are all sub MOA guns out to at least 300 yards (which is kind of my limit for shooting practice anyway around where I live).

Originally Posted By Pat_H:


Here's a white paper on the 6.8 SPC by a gentleman who's been involved with it for almost 5 years, close to the beginning.  It tells about as much as you need to know about the cartridge, good points and not so good points.





While I'm certainly not as experienced with either cartridge as the author of that article, I did do over a year of research prior to deciding to go with the 6.5 Grendel at the best current caliber available in the AR-15 form factor.





Now, let it be said, I don't mind swimming against the tide if I see it's the best thing to do.





I believe my choice is the best for the AR package without regard to barrel length.  I believe if the 6.5 Grendel only had two factory rounds loaded for it, it would still be a superior round.  With the 120 grain Nosler ballistic tip and the Lapua 123 grain Scenar you have essentially covered it all, if those were all you had.





All loads in these two rounds below 100 grains are pretty much irrelevant.  Most loads above 135 grains are as well.





Beyond the factory rounds, the 6.5 Grendel is fertile ground for a handloader.  Ammunition custom tailored to your individual rifle are fun to work up and very satisfying to put together and when they work right, they're very impressive on the range.

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Harrison, don't forget in your list of 6.5 Grendel manufacturers AR15 Performance! They're now offering a 6.5 Grendel clone, called a 6.5mmAR, which chambers 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Further, having experimented with the 6.8, you state you really want something with a 6.5 Grendel case head size and a case length of 41mm so you can shoot higher BC bullets. Gee, which cartridge does that sound like?

And have you noticed 6.8 designer Cris Murray's ideal AR cartridge is a 7x46 with a 6.5 Grendel case head size with higher BC bullets and a maximum average pressure of 50,000 psi for long-term endurance. Sound familiar? He's basically described a 7mm Grendel.

Despite all the bluster and marketing special interests, when even competitors want an ideal AR cartridge they can't escape the basic principles embodied by the 6.5 Grendel.

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. |

www.65grendel.com