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Posted: 1/8/2003 2:02:04 AM EDT
I like to keep my firearms as simple as possible, less to go wrong. I was wondering how a 4x scope would work on my AR mounted on the carry handle?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 2:21:15 AM EDT
  A  magnifying riflescope, mount and rings adds a heck of a lot of parts to break.  Not to mention you should use a cheekpiece to get a more consistant cheekweld and proper sight picture ( so there's another part to add).  Scopes ( the magnifying kind ) slow you down and make offhand shots a lot more difficult...do you really need it?  The only rifles I personally scope are a couple of sporting/hunting rifles.  Every single time I have added a scope to a military style gun I have removed it only a short while later ....they do nothing but get in my way or screw up the manual of arms or inhibit function or maintainence.  You will find they ( magnifying riflescopes)are mostly a waste of time.  Heads up scopes are a bit different...but again....Murphy rules the field and the more you add, the more likely it is to break.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:18:44 AM EDT
Military is using them with good success.  Peep though mount allows you to use both the scope and the iron sights.  Keeping an upper with and one without is also an option.

I guess it comes down to shooters choice but they do work.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:57:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By desertmoon:
   ....they do nothing but get in my way or screw up the manual of arms...
View Quote

Man, I haven't done the "manual of arms" since the mid 60's, and really wasn't planning on doing them ever again!! :-)

Link Posted: 1/8/2003 4:23:42 AM EDT
hee hee...I should quantify that:

 technically the "manual of arms" is the accepted regimented (or ideal) manner in which any particular weapon should be used ( handled, loaded, whatever).  
 i.e. the easiest method for "using" an M1 Garand is not the same system as the easiest one for "using" an M-16 therefore you must use a different "manual of arms"

how's that?  now, if you will excuse me...I am back to chillin out to my ol' Black Sabbath....have fun
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:38:56 AM EDT
Providing it was the Colt's 3x or 4x carryhandle scopes or the Trijicon Compact 3x scope there is no issues.  They will work w/o getting a cheek piece and their trajectories are similar to those using the iron sights.

However if you plan on getting any other scope - for example a Leopold 4x with a ARMS #2 carry handle mount you will find it sits too high.  This causes 2 problems:
1) Difficult to get a good cheek weld w/o using a raised cheek peice - this makes using the charging handle more difficult and prevents usage of the iron sights should the optic break.

2) More importantly it raises the LOS of the opic over the bore resulting in zeros that don't work well over a variety of ranged.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 7:24:18 AM EDT

I have a Colt 3x20 scope.  It is compact and perfect for the AR-15.  I would say this and the 4X are the largest you would want on a self defense weapon.  I use a tasco Accudot scope on my shorty Bushmaster as my primary self defense weapon because I can't see a self defense situation for a homeowner that would be at a range of over 25 yards.  For hunting medium game, I would use a 3-9 power.  I have a rubber covered Tasco 3-9 that is great for 200 yard shots.  For small game, I think you would need a minimum of 12X to 16X on your high power setting for head shots.  I don't mind the extra weight of a scope on my AR-15, but if you are using in for self defense, get a good see through mount that can be removed rapidly.

By the way, do you own a Robinson M96?  How do you like it?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 8:24:49 AM EDT
Hey Rob
I respectfully dissagree with desertmoon, I have been using a trijicon TAO1 for 4 years, first mounted as it was intended on the carry handle of my issue M16A2, then when we switched some of our rifles to M4s and M5s I bought an ARMS #19 ACOG and mounted it to the flattop of my issue M5. It is wonderfully accurate at engaging close to medium range targets. As for "REAL" close targets nothing beats instintive shooting, I simply look right over top of the scope and with practice am able to engage "oh Shit!" targets with ease and accuracy. What ever you buy all you have to do is practice with it. As for calibration of the TAO1 Or the NSN models, Yea I know the are calibrated for specific cartriges but in reallity most combat type rifles are not accurate enough to notice the difference in bullet weights. For me when moving from carry handle to flat top it caused me to take a 6 O'clock hold on an eight inch steel plate from the 300 400 and 500 yard line and I hit dead on center every time. practice practice practice. At Ft benning last year everyone was using ACOGs mainly the 3.5X and 4X
goog luck and good shootin! BTW Never seen an ACOG break in combat competiton or combat for that matter, oops, except the one that took a hit!
cp out!
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