How are the measurements supposed to be made? Iam assuming it's from the end of the buffer tube not the brace? And is it the end of the barrel or to the end of the muzzle device?

My 11.5 from end of buffer tube to beginning of the muzzle device isn't 26 but if it's to the end of said muzzle device it is. What's the rule?

Federally, muzzle device doesn't count in barrel/overall length on any firearm unless permanently attached as per ATF specs.

- OS

What I figured. So how are these guys running 11.5 pistols and getting 26?

You can run a 10.5 and get 26 OAL - you just need a long enough receiver extension ;). The KAK Super Sig comes to mind (among several others that I can't think of the specific names at the moment).

What do you mean running a 11.5 pistol? If it is a pistol it does not have to be 26".

Was wanting to put a vert grip on it

I have a 10.5" barrel on my pistol and an extended buffer tube that puts it at 26.5 without the muzzle device. This is how it must be measured before you add a vertical grip.

You may want to check, but this would likely work.
Extended Pistol Buffer Tube

Yep, mine:



- OS

I guess I'm a little confused, or missed something. I thought a pistol had to be under 26' OAL, and if over it had to be SBR'd if barrel is under 16". Also, if it's a pistol it can not have a vertical foregrip unless, again, it's SBR'd. If it's a pistol it can have an angled forgrip though.

Been on long vacay to Mars?

There is no federal overall or barrel length min/max for a handgun, never has been.  (MI has one I believe, maybe another state or two).

Federally, as per ATF ruling 3 years ago or so, a pistol that is 26" or more in legal overall length may have a VFG attached, at which time it becomes a non-NFA firearm, as long as it's not concealed on the person.  Remove the VFG, it's a pistol again. My heater pictured in post above is about 26.5" from beginning of buffer tube to end of barrel (not counting the flash hider, which is not permanently attached, so it can't count).

- OS

Thanks for the clarification. I'm under 26" (with the muzzle device off) and have a AFG on it.

OP you would need to run a longer buffer tube than that short collapsible one you have. If your intend was to add a VFG I would not have used that brace/tube configuration. So now either pin weld the muzzle device, run a different brace/tube or get a 12.5" barreled uppef.

Looks like you have one of those pdw style braces. I have a standard smooth pistol tube and it is just above 26 to the end of the muzzle.

I'm getting a tailhook mod2 when it comes out and it should be the same length.

Do you not like the KAG?

As stated in the other thread, the ATF has stated that OAL is measured from the rearmost end of the BRACE to the foremost end of the barrel NOT counting muzzle device unless its permanently attached.

Why do people keep spouting this? Please find where ATF says a brace counts in overall length on a pistol and post that for us, okay?

- OS

This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on measuring the overall length of a pistol fitted with an arm stabilizing brace.

Regarding muzzle devices (silencers, flash suppressors or muzzle breaks etc.)Provided that an added muzzle device was permanently attached and completely non-removable it would count towards the overall length and barrel length of the weapon it was permanently attached too.

No specific torque amount is used to determine if a muzzle device is permanently attached. It is the method of attachment which is utilized to determine if the muzzle device is permanently attached. In order to be considered as “permanently attached” a muzzle device would have to be attached to a weapons barrel by means of welding, high-temperature (1100º F) silver soldering; or blind pinning.

Overall length is measured from the end of the arm stabilizing brace to the end of the barrel, be sure that the weapon is level, a large framing square can help with this.
If a vertical forward grip is fitted and the stabilizing brace is needed to keep the pistols overall length at 26 inches or greater then the vertical forward grip must be removed before the stabilizing brace. If a vertical forward grip is placed on a pistol which is less than 26 inches in overall length an “any other weapon” (AOW) is created. Creating an AOW without first completing the proper NFA forms, paying the required 200.00 tax and receiving approval from the ATF NFA Branch is unlawful and would subject the violator to arrest and prosecution.
We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your evaluation request.

Michael S Knapp Program Manager Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Firearms and Explosives Industry Division


TL;DR Measure from the front of the threads to the back of the brace - NOT THE BUFFER TUBE. If over 26" OAL then you're allowed to have a vertical grip.

Well, that's certainly interesting, but can't find any documentation of it at all, except the same quote, unattributed, in a Reddit post?

Who was it in response to? Where did you find it?

At this point, I'm afraid I think somebody just made it up, as that's a ruling that would have gotten some real press by now if valid.

- OS

following this simple wording makes things easier for most to understand. = ''An arm brace is to a pistol as a stock is to a rifle''

People keep forming their own ideas rather than following actual BATFE rulings. If a pistol contains an arm brace the brace would obviously be ''part of the gun''.
I don't know where the idea that permanent parts of a gun used to hold and fire the gun would not be ''part of'' the gun or that parts don't count unless they are needed mechanically for it to function? People keep making stuff up and spreading it around as if it fact.
I know arm braces on pistols are a fairly new thing and they scared most guys originally because they were unsure of the specifics involved. Everything is stated pretty clearly for everyone to understand at this point and making up weird ideas out of fear is not needed anymore.

Is this really correct?

It doesn't make sense because if you did that with a rifle,it would be nfa?

Here is the issue, as I see it, with trying to count a brace as part of the OAL. You're basing the validity of that assumption on how a rifle is measured - which is really a completely different animal from a pistol. In the case of a rifle, overall length is counting the stock extended because a rifle is "made or designed to be fired from the shoulder". A rifle without a stock (irrespective of whether that stock is removable) isn't a rifle at all. I know of no commercially sold rifle - that's classified as a rifle - that doesn't come with a stock of some form, removable or not. A pistol has no such design description which would necessitate measurement from the end of the brace. Permanently removing a brace from your pistol doesn't make it cease to be a pistol. Nor do all pistols even include a brace - the vast majority do not. Just as all rifles do not include a muzzle device, and it's not included in the OAL measurement - even though it is a "part of the gun".

Knowing the above, it's just as likely the ATF is going to treat a brace just like they treat a removable muzzle device - as nothing more than an accessory. After all, it is not literally a part of its design description as with a stock. The entire "over 26 OAL with a VFG is acceptable" thing is based on one or two letters to specific manufacturers and I'm fairly certain they established their OAL without the brace included. We have no real ruling or precedent by which to determine whether they will treat braces as an integral part of the pistol to be measured for OAL, or treat it no differently than any other accessory.

Be that as it may, I certainly wouldn't complain if they did allow it as part of the OAL. And while I can see some argument as a brace being the "extreme end" of the weapon, that same argument could be made for a muzzle device. To this point I don't think a brace being counted as part of OAL has in any way been established as fact. Unless the above "Reddit opinion letter" can actually be traced to a credible source, it's all just conjecture and wishful thinking at this point.

But we're talking about barrels shorter than 16 inches.

You can't put a vfg on a pistol?

Are you saying if the pistol is over 26 inches you can put a vfg on it without making it a sbr? Even if the barrel is less than 16 inches?

How is this legal ( the vfg) without nfa paperwork?

Pin your muzzle device.

Yes. And technically a pistol less than 26" OAL with a VFG is an AOW, not an SBR.

I still don't understand how that's legal without a tax stamp, one way or the other but even if it is ; you got to make damn sure all your measurements are perfect.

Double post

Read the entire text of the letter I posted above, it goes through all the steps.

With regard to the firearm Oh_Shoot posted a picture of, we can follow this logic:

Is it a "firearm"? - Yes, it is designed to expel a projectile from the force of an explosion.

Is it a "rifle"? - No, it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder because it does not have a stock.

Is it a "pistol"? - No, because it has a VFG, and therefore is designed to be held with more than one hand.

Is it an "SBR"? - No.  While it does have a barrel under 16", it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder due to lacking a stock, so not a short barrel rifle.

Is it an "AOW"? - No.  The definition for an AOW includes verbiage that the weapon be concealable.  ATF holds that this means it must be shorter than 26" in overall length, this is greater than that.

And of course it is not a "shotgun", "SBS", "silencer", or "destructive device".

So falling back on all those no's, the only yes was that it fits the very general definition of "firearm", and since it doesn't fit into any of the NFA regulated sub-definitions of a "firearm" (SBR, SBS, AOW, DD, and silencer), then is is just a title I "firearm".

A perfect summation!

Italianstallion, this information has been known for quite some time by lots of folks.  In other words... this is not news to most folks involved in these types of firearms.  Having doubts is one thing, but you need to read, comprehend, and fully understand the information being presented.

D_Man does an excellent job of arriving at the answer via process of elimination. I'll simplify further - once a pistol is over 26", it then can "become" a firearm by virtue of adding a VFG. It's that simple.

Pistol under 26" OAL w/ VFG = AOW subject to regulation by the NFA
Pistol over 26" OAL w/o VFG = Just a regular Title I Pistol
Pistol over 26" OAL w/ VFG = Title I "Firearm"

Rifle= ''made or designed to be fired from the shoulder'' = stock.
Pistol= ''made or designed to be fired with one hand'' = brace. The entire concept of an arm brace is to allow a heavy pistol to be fired with one hand. Same thing as a stock allowing a rifle to be fired from the shoulder. Yes, a brace can be removed and the gun is still a pistol but that does not make the brace a (non part) when attached.
I understand your thinking and it does have it's educated reasoning but I consider an arm brace as part of the pistol as does the BATFE on pistols that are designed and built with them.

A (non permanent) muzzle brake is not part of the overall measurement because it is a (specific barrel measurement requirement). The barrel itself ends at a permanently installed device and ''permanently installed'' is specific to barrel measurements only.  When measuring overall length the rear of the gun is the rear of the gun, period.  

(Barrel specific measurement requirements) have nothing to do with the rear of the gun and the BATFE measurement method for the rear of the gun. I have at least never seen anything to suggest otherwise.

My 11.5 is just over 26'' from the end of the barrel to the end of the buffer tube. Longer counting the actual brace. You must have a short buffer.

I understand now but that's weird how that is legal.

If what you're saying is correct that adding the vfg to the over 26 inches pistol makes it a rifle; then that's not good ( in one respect) for Pennsylvania residents like myself.

In a nutshell, a Pennsylvania CCW permit allows a person to carry only pistols in their vehicle.

AFAIK, no ordinary citizen can carry a loaded rifle in their vehicle in the state of Pennsylvania.( Even with a carry permit).

It's retarded but it's the law of the state.

An AR pistol , without a Vfg, would be a viable option for us.

Even if I decide to build an AR Pistol, I wouldn't ride around with it under normal circumstances but would like the legal opinion to do so, in case of an emergency.(extended power outages with, looters and robbers roaming around etc)

No, adding a VFG to a pistol that's 26" in OAL or more makes it into a FIREARM, not a rifle.

However, the rest of your assessment is correct, depending on how your state defines a "pistol" or "handgun" for the purposes of carrying with a licence, this designation change may result in a configuration that is no longer legal in your state to carry under the conditions of your licence.  This will vary state-to-state.

The problem is, this part is all wishful thinking; you have nothing to base it on. It might well be the case, but we have no solid evidence to draw a conclusion with any degree of certainty. Other than in some uncredited Reddit opinion letter, when has the ATF ever confirmed this is how they view a brace? At best it's a gray area, and probably isn't going to get you in any trouble.  As has been mentioned in these type discussions before, no one has ever been convicted for using a VFG improperly - at least not to my knowledge. But, that hardly makes the matter settled and everyone go to town slapping on VFGs without risk or concern. Even if you aren't convicted of a crime, that doesn't mean you won't be exposed to all manner of hassle, humiliation and potential expense.

The example of a muzzle device is just that - an example of a widely used accessory that isn't considered part of the "extreme end" of the gun. If you followed the law as explicitly written, "extreme end" should logically include the muzzle device. Assuming that device is attached when the weapon is in "shooting configuration", it would be entirely reasonable to conclude it would count as part of OAL. It does not. After all, that is the basis for measuring a rifle with any collapsible stock or folding stock extended - that the rifle is measured for overall length in "shooting configuration". I included it as an example to illustrate that the ATF does not hold a consistent or particularly logical position on these issues. Stock? Measured in "shooting configuration" while extended. Barrel? Measured in "non-shooting configuration", with the device removed.

You stated in another thread that the ATF is "generally straightforward with their rulings"; I think you might have a bit too much faith in the bureaucracy. After all, this is the agency that once famously stated the possession of a shoestring and an AR15 constituted a machinegun. Hell, half the time ATF agents themselves don't even know the exact position of their agency. I can't count how many times I've heard differing opinions on how a rifle should be measured for OAL when filling out a Form 1. I've heard NFA attorneys state collapsed or extended, and both opinions have been given by the ATF themselves when called for clarification. If we were to apply a non-arbitrary, consistent and logical decision-making process to the ATF, a weapon would be measured in "shooting configuration" from the end of the muzzle device and to the end of the stock or brace.

I bet if you were to ask any person unfamiliar with ATF law and firearms in general to measure the overall length of your AR, they would take out a tape measure and measure the thing just as it's configured. That would be entirely logical - and entirely wrong. I think it's a rather clear-cut example of how ATF decisions are far from straightforward, common sense or logical. And while, as I said, it's probably not going to get anyone thrown in jail, I also wouldn't want to be the one to test that notion while cornered at the range by the local "stickler for the rules and doesn't like AR pistols to begin with" FUDD range Nazi and a LEO that is probably unfamiliar with these laws to begin with.

Hell, that outcome isn't guaranteed even if the law is clearly and unequivocally on your side - which in this case, I don't feel that it is. If you or others want to take the chance of enduring that kind of hassle and potential expense to "change the world", by all means, more power to you. I mean that sincerely. But, anyone utilizing this measurement method to justify the use of a VFG should be aware they are at best operating in a gray area and are potentially exposing themselves to a good deal of hassle and expense. As long as they are entering the fray with eyes open and aware of the potential risks, that's fine; I just don't think it's a great idea to be telling people this is entirely settled and without question.

I sent a text to my buddy who works for the ATF in a "kick in doors and kill bad people" capacity, and he said nobody he knows within the organization would give two shits about the rule in question.

Reach down, find your nuts, and put that VFG on and have fun shooting for fucks sake.

Oh, shit... well that settles it then. The old "some random guy on the internet said a friend who knows a guy whose cousin's uncle's BFF is a 'Billy Badass' at the ATF said no one would care" legal defense. Your honor, he told me to find my nuts and just do it, it's obviously fine!

Well, I just sent a text to my buddy who works for the ATF and he kicks in twice as many doors and kills twice as many bad people as your buddy, and he said no one would give two shits if you saw off your shotgun, make an illegal SBR or even convert your AR to full auto. Find your nuts and convert that shit, man. My buddy said it's alright.

ok

Awesome. I think I'll do that. Where are you supposed to drill that extra hole in the receiver for FA?

You're missing the point. Nobody gets prosecuted for this shit. So either don't worry about it, or just leave the vertical grip off of the gun to begin with. It's not exactly a vital component, and I wager most guys just put them on there because it looks cool anyway.

Just make sure you print out this page and carry it with you at all times as proof some random guy on the internet told you his buddy said it's fine.

Too bad Ruby Ridge happened before the internet was mainstream. I'm sure Randy Weaver could have just told the ATF, "No one gives two shits about a shotgun barrel being 1/4"  too short - someone on AR15.com told me his buddy said so! Find your nuts, man!" Whole thing could've been averted. I mean, the ATF sure as hell isn't going to send a SWAT team to your house, shoot your dog and then shoot your wife in the neck while she is holding a baby all over a barrel being 1/4" too short, right? Oh, wait...

Probably most cops don't give two shits about the vfg on a pistol but why take a chance?  You might run into that one dickhead who's in a bad mood. It's not worth it.

If and when I do decide to build a pistol, I'll use one of those approved forgrips; if I decide to use one.

In reality it's true that no one cares and no one gets prosecuted for these kind of things. It's still nice to know up to date rules and follow them for piece of mind. Making a machine gun and firing it off at the public range may get attention and cause problems. The length of a pistol and the type of grip you use is different.    

BATFE stuff is not the kind of law that Police and Sheriff are trained to know and follow. My son is a policeman and he only knows what I explain to him and does not comprehend half of it or care anyway. Times I have explained rules to my son he just says ''that's stupid'' The Policeman I work for from time to time actually has an AR and he knows nothing of the BATFE rules either, and like my son he does not even care. I bet many officers don't know or care and the only ones who do are guys like us who collect military style guns themselves.

Very true. A lot of cops aren't gun people and just know the bare minimum about the sidearm they carry everyday.

Then you have those that are firearm enthuiasts.

Non NFA:

Pistol - bbl length does not matter; can have AFG or handstop
Firearm - pistol over 26 total inches with an added VFG

This is absolutely terrible advice

I would not want to leave myself at the mercy of a govt. agent on such a thing. Hoping one doesn't feel like jamming you up just because they can.

Besides, what if you end up using it in a self defense situation? It's not about balls. It's about brains.

So what are you trying to accomplish exactly? An AR-15 pistol with Sig Brace and overall length over 26" so you can have a vertical foregrip? I'd rather have the more compact AR-15 pistol without a vertical foregrip personally. But I guess to each their own. This reminds me of the old Thompson pistol with 13" barrel and has a vertical foregrip. 

There's a guy on Reddit that posted a letter he received from BATFE a week ago explaining how to measure the pistol. It says to measure from the end of the brace to the end of the barrel(threads or pin and welded muzzle device). If over 26=OK to add VG. I'd post it here but I don't know how to link pictures on this site.

I already posted the text of that letter on here and nobody is accepting it.

I just measured my pistol, from the ass end of the maxim brace to the tip of the barrel (excluding flash hider) is 27.0 inches. I bolted that vertical foregrip on extra tight just for you guys



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