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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/16/2006 2:21:05 PM EDT
I have recently purchased 1,000 50gr JHP loads for use on prairie dogs & other vermin in general. My question is - how will these shoot out of a 1:7 twist barrel? Is this way too much for a 50gr load? If it is, I'm going to try to trade up for heavier rounds.

Thoughts?

-robert
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:23:24 PM EDT
The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 12 or 14 twist. Accuracy with 50 grain bullets in a 7 twist barrel will probably be poor. Charles the Gunsmith.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:31:23 PM EDT
weight to twist is irrelevent. What matters most is LENGTH to twist. It's all here
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:48:07 PM EDT
Some guys claim to have good results with bullets as small as 45 grain in 1-7" barrels. Try it and see. But I do have to agree that twist has more to do with length then it does with weight though they usually go hand in hand.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:53:14 PM EDT
I have shot the 45 grain Winchester white box ammo out of 1/7 M4 and M16A2 barrels and accuracy was fine.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:25:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911builder:
The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 12 or 14 twist. Accuracy with 50 grain bullets in a 7 twist barrel will probably be poor. Charles the Gunsmith.


You are wrong on both counts.

The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 14 or faster twist.

Accuracy with 45 and 50 grain varmint bullets has been exceptional in my 20" service rifle, which had an 8 twist and now has a 7.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:59:55 PM EDT
My Colt HBAR 20" with a 1 in 7 twist shoots Sierra 52 grain HPBT bullets better than the 68 or 77 grain bullets at the 100 yard line. Multiple groups prove it time and time again.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:06:33 AM EDT
My first instinct is that the twist is too much for the bullets. However, like many have eloquently (and some not) put it, what matters the most is what happens down range.

Keep in mind too, the purpose for the rounds that you bought is for eliminiating varmints and their ilk from the planet. So...100 yards may not be the best base line for the performance of these rounds. Hopefully you have somewhere you can stretch your target out to 200-300 yards. This will give you a better picture of what you're trying to accomplish (i.e. shoot 12-24" x 6" wide targets with a 1" square "spray zone").

The math for weight to twist, etc. is great (and scarily is more right than wrong), but like I said all that matters is what happens down range.

Good luck!

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:13:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 4:14:27 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By uscbigdawg1:
My first instinct is that the twist is too much for the bullets.

It *could* be, but bad things happen to lightweight bullets in very fast twists only if they are driven at insane velocities.

They could also blow up if there is a flaw in the jacket, but a jacket flaw can disintegrate heavy 224s as well.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:22:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By 1911builder:
The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 12 or 14 twist. Accuracy with 50 grain bullets in a 7 twist barrel will probably be poor. Charles the Gunsmith.


You are wrong on both counts.

The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 14 or faster twist.

Accuracy with 45 and 50 grain varmint bullets has been exceptional in my 20" service rifle, which had an 8 twist and now has a 7.



No, I am not wrong on both counts. My experience with shooting short bullets such as 50 grain in 7 twist barrels has shown me that the accuracy was poor in my Krieger barreled AR. So my experience is different than yours. That does not make me wrong, it does mean that we have had different results. Charles.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:39:59 PM EDT
I have never experienced poor accuracy with 45 to 50 grain bullets in 1/7" twist barrels at any sane velocities.
It will not be a problem, IMO.

Brewer
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 2:58:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911builder:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By 1911builder:
The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 12 or 14 twist. Accuracy with 50 grain bullets in a 7 twist barrel will probably be poor. Charles the Gunsmith.


You are wrong on both counts.

The 50 grain bullets should be used in a barrel with a 14 or faster twist.

Accuracy with 45 and 50 grain varmint bullets has been exceptional in my 20" service rifle, which had an 8 twist and now has a 7.



No, I am not wrong on both counts. My experience with shooting short bullets such as 50 grain in 7 twist barrels has shown me that the accuracy was poor in my Krieger barreled AR. So my experience is different than yours. That does not make me wrong, it does mean that we have had different results. Charles.


Being that I know personally several others who have had similar results to mine and none with results similar to yours, I stand by what I said.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:44:16 PM EDT
And I will stand by what I said as I know people who have had poor accuracy from that combination both personally and professionally. Touche.... Charles.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:23:38 PM EDT
The twist question always turns into a pissing match. Isn't it lovely?
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:39:02 PM EDT
Oh yeah? Well I pissed 75 feet from a 2nd story window, beat that! JK

Everyone is right. The barrel's hardness factor, its weight, its harmonics, and any muzzle crown in the difference between a 1:7 shooting sub-MOA and a 1:7, with the same ammo and circumstances but 1 difference in the barrel, shooting 4 MOA. Just saying that we know people with 1:X twist barrels who get great groups with so-and-so bullet means nothing. Answer these questions and THEN you can start arguing.

How old is the barrel, how many lands and grooves., what's the surface wear, what metal is it made out of, what nationality made the steel (Chinese steel is shit and US steel is the motherlode,) what degree of target crown, what flash suppressor (if any,) is the barrel fluted, if it is fluted how many flutes, do you free float, what was the temperature outside, what was the temperature of the gun, how consistent were the loads, what were the primers, is the shooter actually any good or do they suck and blame it on the ammo, how old is the brass, what type of powder, were they true 5.56 or were they .223rem, were the bullets steel core or not, how were the groupings measured, what was the wind like, was it raining, was it snowing, was it foggy, how dirty was the gun, how dirty was the barrel, was it from a bipod or sandbag, was it due to a worn chamber etc.

Those are all questions we MUST take into consideration when discussing twist rates.

To the original question: I'd say just try it and see what happens. Results will vary from gun to gun- person to person- pisser to pisser- arfcommer to noob-- its all up in the air. Oh and post a range report please for the benefit of us all.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 9:32:31 PM EDT
Ironsight hit it on the head, its about length not weight. Charles you once again do not have a clue. 52 and 53 gr bullets are the choice for killer 100 yd loads. Bullets in the 50 to 60 gr. range are more often then not extremely accurate in 1-7 and 1-8 AR barrels and almost always yield acceptable accuracy in this twist. Its not an opinion its a fact. Ask any service rifle competitor as these bullets will often yield 1/2 M.O.A. and are the choice for 100 yd. reduced courses.

As for jacket separation from being spun too fast, it only happens with thin jacketed bullets when pushed over 3000 fps. and then while not advisable it is still rare.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:47:44 AM EDT
Actually FORWARD ASSIST it is you who does not have clue. The original thread was about 50 grain bullets and 7 twist barrels. You hijacked it with your statement about 52 and 53 grain bullets with fast twists.

This brings the question of whether or not you have memory, cognitive or intelligence issues. Find some help.

Charles.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:49:59 AM EDT
As soon as you guys are done measuring dicks this dead thread will quit coming back to the top of my active topics. Can't we let it die? This topic comes up WAY too much to waste time arguing about it again.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:56:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rmeredit:
I have recently purchased 1,000 50gr JHP loads for use on prairie dogs & other vermin in general. My question is - how will these shoot out of a 1:7 twist barrel? Is this way too much for a 50gr load? If it is, I'm going to try to trade up for heavier rounds.

Thoughts?

-robert



Try it and see what happens.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:16:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 11:17:55 AM EDT by DM1975]
50 grain------50 grain
+1 in 7------+1 in 7
--GOOD-------BAD
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:46:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:
Ironsight hit it on the head, its about length not weight. Charles you once again do not have a clue. 52 and 53 gr bullets are the choice for killer 100 yd loads. Bullets in the 50 to 60 gr. range are more often then not extremely accurate in 1-7 and 1-8 AR barrels and almost always yield acceptable accuracy in this twist. Its not an opinion its a fact. Ask any service rifle competitor as these bullets will often yield 1/2 M.O.A. and are the choice for 100 yd. reduced courses.

As for jacket separation from being spun too fast, it only happens with thin jacketed bullets when pushed over 3000 fps. and then while not advisable it is still rare.




Try to stay focused Charles, your so shaken for being called on the uneducated opinion you stated you forgot to sign with your delusional "the gunsmith." No hijack here just real world facts. Put down the magazines and learn something here, then maybe enroll in a mail order home gunsmith course. In time you will have the courage to admit you did not know what the hell you were talking about.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:50:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:
Ironsight hit it on the head, its about length not weight. Charles you once again do not have a clue. 52 and 53 gr bullets are the choice for killer 100 yd loads. Bullets in the 50 to 60 gr. range are more often then not extremely accurate in 1-7 and 1-8 AR barrels and almost always yield acceptable accuracy in this twist. Its not an opinion its a fact. Ask any service rifle competitor as these bullets will often yield 1/2 M.O.A. and are the choice for 100 yd. reduced courses.

As for jacket separation from being spun too fast, it only happens with thin jacketed bullets when pushed over 3000 fps. and then while not advisable it is still rare.




Try to stay focused Charles, your so shaken for being called on the uneducated opinion you stated you forgot to sign with your delusional "the gunsmith." No hijack here just real world facts. Put down the magazines and learn something here, then maybe enroll in a mail order home gunsmith course. In time you will have the courage to admit you did not know what the hell you were talking about.





OMFG! That is indeed some hilarious shit right there. At least I know I am not the only one who noticed the "the gunsmith" thing.

dalesimpson the electrician.

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:53:14 AM EDT
FORWARD ASSIST. I graduated from Yavapai College School of Gunsmithing. I did this after I spent 22 years as a Marine. 12 of those marine years were as an armorer. I also have 4 years BS degree in Engineering. Ido have some idea of what I am speaking about you intellectually challenged iindividual. You sir still need serious professional help. Semper Fi.

Charles the Gunsmith. CWO-3 USMC (ret)

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:58:41 AM EDT



Link Posted: 3/19/2006 12:06:24 PM EDT
Shoot it and see. I don't understand guys that have the gun, have the ammo and post to see how accurate their rifle will be. Every gun is different.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 12:13:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker1:
Shoot it and see. I don't understand guys that have the gun, have the ammo and post to see how accurate their rifle will be. Every gun is different.



I agree. Personally if I have a firearm and some ammunition and I want to know how accurate it will be I just drive a couple of miles to the range, hang a target and get my answer.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:53:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911builder:
FORWARD ASSIST. I graduated from Yavapai College School of Gunsmithing. I did this after I spent 22 years as a Marine. 12 of those marine years were as an armorer. I also have 4 years BS degree in Engineering. Ido have some idea of what I am speaking about you intellectually challenged iindividual. You sir still need serious professional help. Semper Fi.

Charles the Gunsmith. CWO-3 USMC (ret)




Charles You pompous phony, I do not doubt your Bull Shit degree as you practice the learnings often here. Your Military back ground (if it exists) does not impress me nor does any supposed knowledge of gunsmithing make you a proficient marksman or right in your statement of 50 gr. use in 1-7 twist barrels as it is a known fact. Maybe you came to your opinion as a result of your poor marksmanship, either way you do not have a horse in this race but you are an ass. To spare others this silly back and forth, lets take this to IM. If you can refrain from stroking your ego in public.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:36:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 5:18:01 AM EDT by DM1975]
Forward-assist, I am just curious, what is your background, since you have already insulted someone here that seems to have a fairly decent background in firearms and firearms reapir. As for weight to twist vs. length to twist, yes this is true but for most instances one goes with the other, the shorter the round the lighter it is, but hey, nothing is ever constant in shooting, just loose guidelines. But I realy would like to know your background.
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