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Posted: 8/30/2004 4:40:03 PM EST
Getting ready to take the plunge and get a new barrel. Can't really decide on a 14.5" with fixed FH or a 16" threaded with FH. I really want to keep the length as shot as legally allowed at 16". Does anyone have any first hand experience on accuracy / performance between the 2?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:04:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:17:07 PM EST
I've owned both and have shot both side by side. For me and my shooting buddies, there is absolutely NO noticeable difference between the two in accuracy or range.

As for length, there is also no real world difference in length since, although apples to apples, it's still 1.5" shorter, a 14.5" bbl MUST have the longer flash suppressor, where as the 16" can use the A2 FS which makes it barely 1" longer.

After owning both, I finally settled on a 16" mid-length to fix the ONLY thing I don't like about the 16" carbines... they're UGLY.

So in my completely biased opinion, I prefer 14.5" barrels on carbines and 16" barrels on middies.

Buy the one you want, you won't see a difference at the range.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:19:41 PM EST
I just went through this, and chose 16". I think it looks a little goofy, but I'm also thinking that I'd like to have a supressor one day.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:19:53 PM EST
I prefer 14.5 personally.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:27:00 PM EST
I like 16" midlength.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:30:01 PM EST
norman74 had a good point! I will be gettin a can within the year. Does anyone know if any of the can manufacturers make a 1.5" FH? I want a can that will attach to the FH and not have to screw / unscrew 2 different items all of the time.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:41:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 5:44:53 PM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By onrope1971:
norman74 had a good point! I will be gettin a can within the year. Does anyone know if any of the can manufacturers make a 1.5" FH? I want a can that will attach to the FH and not have to screw / unscrew 2 different items all of the time.



The Gemtech bi-lock will get a 14.5" barrel up to 16". I think it has to be permanently attached anyway no matter what barrel length you have, so it is a good excuse to get a 14.5" barrel.

Generally, though, I would say get the 16" barrel. Why give up any bakkistic effectiveness if both the 16" and the 14.5" barrels handle and feel basically the same. I'd rather have the extra velocity that the 16" affords you.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:04:27 PM EST
Go 16". I don't understand why so many people would want to have a 14.5" barrel now. That extra 1.5" gives opens up more possibilities and gives better accuracy and terminal balistics to boot.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:09:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By onrope1971:
Getting ready to take the plunge and get a new barrel. Can't really decide on a 14.5" with fixed FH or a 16" threaded with FH. I really want to keep the length as shot as legally allowed at 16". Does anyone have any first hand experience on accuracy / performance between the 2?



16"

I don't like the idea of a fixed muzzle attachment...

The extra 1.5" of bbl is not enough of a problem, and is more than made up for by the versitility in muzzle devices available with a 16" bbl...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:28:05 PM EST
GET BOTH!

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:14:07 PM EST
i like the 14.5
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:39:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:40:13 PM EST
The big brown truck just dropped off a bushy 14.5" 1/7 at my house........
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:48:28 PM EST
16in

Remman
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:59:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Permanently attached FSs unnecesarily complicate detailed maintenance and repair of the rifle. Avoid them unless the cool factor overrides your common sense.



I never get my rifle that far apart anyway.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:02:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:53:26 AM EST
Gemtech Halo

The patented mounting system utilizes the 22 mm standard NATO-specification bird-cage type flash hider as used by the military worldwide. Mounting or removal can be performed without the use of tools in less than 30 seconds.


Gemtech M4-96D

The patented mounting system utilizes Gemtech's special Bi-Lock flash hider, resembling the bird-cage type.

At Gemtech, we can install the Bi-Lock to meet BATF specifications for a permanent installation, making the M4 barrel legal for use on an AR15 rifle.



Thats interesting to say the least. I believe the bi-lock mount comes with the suppressor, but they are $85/ea when bought separately. Only problem I see is that the overall price of the M4-96D suppressor is $725 versus the M4-02 which threads on that retails for $495. That's alot of coin simply to be able to popp the thing on and off.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:03:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 1:10:19 AM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By norman74:
Gemtech Halo

The patented mounting system utilizes the 22 mm standard NATO-specification bird-cage type flash hider as used by the military worldwide. Mounting or removal can be performed without the use of tools in less than 30 seconds.


Gemtech M4-96D

The patented mounting system utilizes Gemtech's special Bi-Lock flash hider, resembling the bird-cage type.

At Gemtech, we can install the Bi-Lock to meet BATF specifications for a permanent installation, making the M4 barrel legal for use on an AR15 rifle.



Thats interesting to say the least. I believe the bi-lock mount comes with the suppressor, but they are $85/ea when bought separately. Only problem I see is that the overall price of the M4-96D suppressor is $725 versus the M4-02 which threads on that retails for $495. That's alot of coin simply to be able to popp the thing on and off.



Also know that the HALO does not have as good of repeatable accuracy as the QD 96D. There will be around one inch deviance from your previous zero every time you remount the HALO. I assume the same of the threaded model, maybe even slightly more. It is a negligible number in a practical sense, but the bi-lock system is much more consistent if a deviation of any kind in accuracy matters to you.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 1:57:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By knightone:
Also know that the HALO does not have as good of repeatable accuracy as the QD 96D. There will be around one inch deviance from your previous zero every time you remount the HALO. I assume the same of the threaded model, maybe even slightly more. It is a negligible number in a practical sense, but the bi-lock system is much more consistent if a deviation of any kind in accuracy matters to you.



Obviously accuracy is of interest to all of us. I'm just posting information. It's just quite a jump to go from $495 to $725, that's all. I guess if you deduct the $85 for the Bi-Lock, it's a little less of a shock.

Also, on an M4 (which is what we're talking about here) I'm not sure that I'd have an issue with the 1" change of POI. I don't really see using an M4 at distances over 100 yards, so I'm sure I could live with the 1" for my purposes.

What would be really nice with the Bi-Lock would be having one on the M4 and one on an SPR/SAM/LMNOP and be able to use the same suppressor.

Since I have no experience with these devices (and to continue the hijack), does the 96D index the same each time? (i.e. does the same side always face up?)
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:23:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Since I have no experience with these devices (and to continue the hijack), does the 96D index the same each time? (i.e. does the same side always face up?)



As I recall, yes. There should be only one way to index the suppressor as the lugs should be slightly different sizes to ensure the can goes on the same each time.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:51:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By tatjana:

Originally Posted By onrope1971:
Getting ready to take the plunge and get a new barrel. Can't really decide on a 14.5" with fixed FH or a 16" threaded with FH. I really want to keep the length as shot as legally allowed at 16". Does anyone have any first hand experience on accuracy / performance between the 2?



I prefer 16" on all counts.




+1
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:40:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By knightone:

Originally Posted By norman74:
Since I have no experience with these devices (and to continue the hijack), does the 96D index the same each time? (i.e. does the same side always face up?)



As I recall, yes. There should be only one way to index the suppressor as the lugs should be slightly different sizes to ensure the can goes on the same each time.



Yes, it does. I have 14.5" with permanent Bi-Locks on both my M4s. The reason the 96D is so much more expensive is that the mount (in the suppressor) is a precision mechanism, sort of a PITA to make, probably. It's so good, SWR uses it under license on their suppressors.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:44:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Most free float tubes won't fit barrels with permanently attached flash suppressors.



Tweak is right.

But then again the Troy MRF's are very nice and you don't need to remove the FSB or muzzle device.

Heck you don't even need a flattop.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:50:33 AM EST
14.5". I want my barrel as short as legally possible.

For a lone actor in a SHTF situation, you should be shooting at distances greater than 100m only in the rarest of circumstances. So, within normal combat ranges (<50 meters, IIRC, according to sandbox reports), the terminal effects of the 14.5 vs. the 16 are minimal.

The permanently attatched muzzle device is probably the greatest concern for 1) resale and or 2) forend systems. For resale, you may give up some cash 'cause your muzzle device goes with the barrel (though silver solder attachement may negate this).

As far as forend systems go, the RAS II, ARMS SIR, and Troy are all viable systems which do not necessitate removal of a muzzle device.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:20:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By knightone:

Originally Posted By norman74:
Since I have no experience with these devices (and to continue the hijack), does the 96D index the same each time? (i.e. does the same side always face up?)



As I recall, yes. There should be only one way to index the suppressor as the lugs should be slightly different sizes to ensure the can goes on the same each time.



Yes, it does. I have 14.5" with permanent Bi-Locks on both my M4s. The reason the 96D is so much more expensive is that the mount (in the suppressor) is a precision mechanism, sort of a PITA to make, probably. It's so good, SWR uses it under license on their suppressors.



Are they any cheaper?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:33:29 PM EST
14.5"
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:58:09 PM EST
well it depends...

i used to think the only choice was a 16" gun... (thats what i have)... for almost all purposes a 16" is better... velocity, balisticlly, trajectory... 16's have a lot going for them...

however... if your looking for a VERY close range weapon/truck gun i think a 14.5" w/ phatom is the way to go... your going to have a short weapon but yet a low flash signal... i don't believe 5.56x45 barrels should be shorter than 14.5in and that 1/7 or 1/8 twist is a must for a 14.5"... if you have to have a barrel smaller than 14.5... get something in 9mm or something...

i'm currently looking into a truck gun...
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:31:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By onrope1971:
Getting ready to take the plunge and get a new barrel. Can't really decide on a 14.5" with fixed FH or a 16" threaded with FH. I really want to keep the length as shot as legally allowed at 16". Does anyone have any first hand experience on accuracy / performance between the 2?



16"

I don't like the idea of a fixed muzzle attachment...

The extra 1.5" of bbl is not enough of a problem, and is more than made up for by the versitility in muzzle devices available with a 16" bbl...



+1
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:35:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:10:53 AM EST
We all have our opinions, experiences, and personal preferences... Heck, I even got out of the 14.5" market because of the permanent flash suppressor/ Daniel Defense forend issue...

BUT


That extra 1.5" gives opens up more possibilities and gives better accuracy and terminal balistics to boot.



You're right that you get more possibiities regarding forends and flash suppressors, and yes, your M855 ammo will drop below 2700fps at 140 yards instead 100 yards, but better accuracy? CRAP! Utter and ABSOLUTE CRAP! There is NO and I repeat NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality. A bushy 14.5" and a Bushy 16", given the same dimensions other than length, will show similar accuracy.

I know because I've fired 14.5" and 16" side by side many times... Have you?

Again, I don't even own a 14.5" anymore... instead I went with a 16" mid-length to keep it "looking right" but still be able to choose or change my flash suppressor and moreso to add the DD forend, so I'm not a 14.5" barrel owner who's talking down the 16" (other than the fact that a 16" carbine looks like a Zebco collapsible fishing rod) but lets keep all the VERY GOOD FACTS in this thread seperate from the anecdotal assumptions that are FALSE.

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 10:12:30 AM EST
Well, FYI, a 16" with A2 flash suppressor and Magpul stock is only 2" shorter than a Dissipator with A2 stock.

I think if I had it to do over again, I'd have the 14.5" upper sent straight to Gemtech to have their flash suppressor/mount for the 96D permanently installed. Yes, this would limit my options for a railed forend, but I really think one is as good as another with those things.

Anyone have a pic of the Gemtech mount?
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 10:16:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 10:18:58 AM EST by Alien]

Originally Posted By Onslaught:
You're right that you get more possibiities regarding forends and flash suppressors, and yes, your M855 ammo will drop below 2700fps at 140 yards instead 100 yards, but better accuracy? CRAP! Utter and ABSOLUTE CRAP! There is NO and I repeat NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality. A bushy 14.5" and a Bushy 16", given the same dimensions other than length, will show similar accuracy.



You might want to change your statement to "there is no noticeable difference to me." A longer barrel will increase accuracy. In fact you contradicted yourself saying there is "NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality" and then later said they will show similar accuracy. There's a difference there. You didn't think snipers and marksmen use long ass barrels for looks did you?

It's true that it probably won't make much if any difference to a majority of the people out there, but then again, neither will the balistics. Most people just shoot paper. How many people here have every shot a person or hunt with their ARs? Probably a small minority. However we count on having that fragmentation aspect for when the day comes that we may need it, just like we'd count on the inherent accuracy that is provided by having a slightly longer barrel.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 2:23:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 2:56:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 2:57:47 PM EST by QuietShootr]

Originally Posted By Alien:

Originally Posted By Onslaught:
You're right that you get more possibiities regarding forends and flash suppressors, and yes, your M855 ammo will drop below 2700fps at 140 yards instead 100 yards, but better accuracy? CRAP! Utter and ABSOLUTE CRAP! There is NO and I repeat NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality. A bushy 14.5" and a Bushy 16", given the same dimensions other than length, will show similar accuracy.



You might want to change your statement to "there is no noticeable difference to me." A longer barrel will increase accuracy. In fact you contradicted yourself saying there is "NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality" and then later said they will show similar accuracy. There's a difference there. You didn't think snipers and marksmen use long ass barrels for looks did you?

It's true that it probably won't make much if any difference to a majority of the people out there, but then again, neither will the balistics. Most people just shoot paper. How many people here have every shot a person or hunt with their ARs? Probably a small minority. However we count on having that fragmentation aspect for when the day comes that we may need it, just like we'd count on the inherent accuracy that is provided by having a slightly longer barrel.



Longer barrels are not inherently more accurate. Benchrest barrels are usually no longer than 20". I have made good hits at 1000 yards with my 20" .308 shooting against 24" and 26" M24 variants.

My post 9/13 build is a 14.5" with Bilock on a 1:7 barrel with a KAC MRP. I assembled the upper and then sent it to Gemtech for welding.

No, SWR is MORE expensive than Gemtech, to answer that question.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:01:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:


My post 9/13 build is a 14.5" with Bilock on a 1:7 barrel with a KAC MRP. I assembled the upper and then sent it to Gemtech for welding.

No, SWR is MORE expensive than Gemtech, to answer that question.




Just sent my 3rd upper off to Gem-Tech to have a bi-lock installed on Wednsday....just waiting on the ATF

Not trying to be picky or trying to flame, but what is a KAC MRP? MRE maybe or Troy Ind MRP or???



Take care,
Jeff
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 10:13:06 PM EST
14.5"
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:29:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By USMC03:
Not trying to be picky or trying to flame, but what is a KAC MRP? MRE maybe or Troy Ind MRP or



maybe this will help?

I was thinking either LMT MRP or Troy MRF.

Any help here QS?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:39:31 PM EST
For anyone who cares, here's a pic of the bilock.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:13:14 PM EST
Norman,


Thanks for the link......I know the difference but often call them the wrong thing myself Thanks for keeping me in line


Nice bi-lock and M4-96D.....I just wish the BATF would hurry up with my paperwork.....now that I think of it maybe I shouldn't have listed "Branch Dividian Compound" as my address on the form 1, it seemed like the thing to do after I had a few beers in me, but it could slowing the progress of my paperwork



Semper Fi
Jeff
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:47:40 AM EST

You might want to change your statement to "there is no noticeable difference to me." A longer barrel will increase accuracy. In fact you contradicted yourself saying there is "NO accuracy difference WHATSOEVER between a 14.5" and 16" barrel of the same quality" and then later said they will show similar accuracy. There's a difference there. You didn't think snipers and marksmen use long ass barrels for looks did you?


Oh geez, you're gonna get me on the english... I said "similar" because saying "exact same" would have been a stupid thing to say since even two 16" barrels from the same company will not have "exact same" accuracy but they will be "similar". I didn't contradict myself, I was just choosing my words carefully.

I don't know WHO you've been listening to, but a longer barrel DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for accuracy. Snipers have "long ass" barrels to keep trajectory flatter and hold velocity longer for those 1000+ yard shots. A 16" barrel DOES have slightly higher velocity than 14.5, but the length itself does nothing for accuracy, period. Ask somebody else who actually knows what they're talking about.

In fact, in SOME cases, like with thinner profile barrels, a SHORTER barrel can be MORE accurate than a LONGER one because shorter means less barrel whip. Ask any Mini-14 owner.

The ONLY reason one might think a longer barrel is more accurate is if you also get more sight radius in the process. But since we're talking about carbines, there's none of that either. A mid-length or Dissipator would have some advantage, but only because the SIGHT RADIUS is longer.

Bottom line, a longer barrel does NOT make it more accurate. The quality of the barrel does. And since you didn't like my wording last time, how about this...

If you have a 16" barrel shortened to 14.5" by a COMPETENT GUNSMITH who has the proper tools and knowledge for the job (KKF, ADCO) and take before and after groups, your accuracy will not be negatively affected.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:47:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By USMC03:
Not trying to be picky or trying to flame, but what is a KAC MRP? MRE maybe or Troy Ind MRP or



maybe this will help?

I was thinking either LMT MRP or Troy MRF.

Any help here QS?



I'm sorry, I meant MRE...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:59:10 PM EST
Hmmm... Well, I have a custom 17" "SPR" profile barrel from WOA for my long-range dissy, a 14.5" Bushy 1/7 M4 barrel + phantom for my CQB gun, and I plan to eventually build another ff dissy around a threaded 16" barrel... SO, I guess like them all. :)
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