Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/13/2004 11:01:36 PM EST
Can I own a 14.5 upper as long as I don't use it on a fire arm?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:13:26 PM EST
barrel or complete upper reciever?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:52:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By newbe:
barrel or complete upper reciever?


complete upper.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:21:21 AM EST
If you own any ARs and have them under the same roof that would house this upper, it wouldn't be worth the risk. If you have no ARs, then it would be fine.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:40:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 12:41:30 AM EST by glockguy40]
move all your uppers out the house to a friend's or relative's.... have the upper shipped to you... and the same day you get it, send it off to ADCO to have a flash hider permenantly installed. As soon as you send off the upper, you can bring your guns back home, and wait for your new legal 16" overall length upper to return.

This is, of course, only if you aren't planning on building an SBR???
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:48:19 AM EST
Want to do a sbr just not right this second and was going to get the upper for cheap. So I guess I might not get it now
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:43:05 AM EST
As long as your paperwork is pending you should be fine. Has there been a case of constructive intent on building an SBR anyone can show me?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:59:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 7:01:30 AM EST by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By DevL:
As long as your paperwork is pending you should be fine.



Wrong, and a recomendation to flirt with a 10-year felony. The paperwork must be "approved" first, for it is not legal to "make" the NFA Firearm until receiving Form 1 approval. Having the parts around (in assembled, ready-to-attach to any non-NFA functioning lower, without an otherwise legitimate use for them i.e legal AR pistol) is the same as possession of an assembled un-registered SBR.

Bottom line:
Don't have a complete SBR upper around AR's without a current, legal, legitimate use for it.



Has there been a case of constructive intent on building an SBR anyone can show me?


The case is US v. Kent, 175 F.3d 870 (11th Cir, 1999)
found here (generously hosted by Quarterbore): quarterbore.com/library/law/us_v_kent.pdf
BTW: the term is "constructive possession" of an unregistered (NFA) Firearm.

The court's conclusion:
Because short-barreled upper receiver unit and lower receiver unit were located in the same, small apartment and could be connected quickly and easily, creating an operable short-barreled rifle with only a minimum of effort, evidence that defendant possessed both of those units was sufficient to prove that defendant possessed a "rifle having a barrel of less than 16 inches in length" for purposes of applicable statutory prohibition. 26 U.S.C.A. § 5861(d).

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:57:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Want to do a sbr just not right this second and was going to get the upper for cheap. So I guess I might not get it now



Can you find a friend (without ARs), or maybe a dealer that you know well, who could store it for you? Seems like there might be a way to work it out.

Dave
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:02:47 AM EST
Whet if you own an AR pistol and an AR rifle?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:49:06 AM EST
i kinda have the same problem..... i jsut bought... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/viewitem.asp?item=24225017 that, and it has a 14.5" barrel, and a flash hider, is it legal for me to put on a lower, is it permanently installed. its not listed under class 3 stuff.

cory
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:29:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By K2QB3:
Whet if you own an AR pistol and an AR rifle?



Then it would probably be fine. However, he doesn't have a pistol or SBR at the moment, so the PTB would not look so kindly on him if anything were to happen.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:33:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By 300ultramag:
i kinda have the same problem..... i jsut bought... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/viewitem.asp?item=24225017 that, and it has a 14.5" barrel, and a flash hider, is it legal for me to put on a lower, is it permanently installed. its not listed under class 3 stuff.

cory



"is it legal for me to put on a lower?"

Short answer: not on a standard (non-NFA) AR rifle lower; the result would be an unregistered SBR.

From the auction description:
"... 14.5" inch MIL SPEC M-4 SHORT CARBINE BARREL ... comes with the 1/2 x 28 tpi A2 style flash hider mounted as shown..."

This configuration is commonly known to be less than the 16" overall barrel length required by the NFA for rifles.

There is no FEDERAL minimum or maximum barrel length for AR handguns, although I am informed that some states may have barrel restrictions for AR handguns.

I don't see in the description that the A2 flash hider is permanently attached, so it should be a simple matter of shipping this upper off to get a longer FH permanently attached without too much difficulty or expense. (I know KKF does this sort of work with an A2-look-alike FH that is long enough)
However, I would not recommend it lingering around other AR's for the reasons in Kent, above.

K2QB3:
The court in Kent, above, seemed to focus on the fact that the defendant had no other legitimate purpose for owning the SBR-length upper other than to make an SBR with an existing rifle lower.
The court also examined in Kent the US v. Thomson/Contender case (also at Quarterbore quarterbore.com/library/law/us_v_tc.pdf) the situation where one can make an SBR from a handgun using only the stock from a T/C handgun/carbine combo kit (included with a 16"+ barrel to make the T/C handgun into a carbine).
US v. T/C is a Supreme Court case, and held that a legitimate use for the short upper (to make a legal handgun) prevented the mere possession of the upper with a non-NFA lower was reason enough not to classify the parts as an unassembled SBR.

The key seems to be "current legitimate use" for the upper, and a spare for an NFA weapon, or as a top to an AR pistol seems to be legit.

Note: Kent's argument that the fully assembled short upper, found complete with batteries in the optic, readily drop-able onto a lower ("under 30 seconds") for a firable Firearm, was kept "for parts" was rejected. You need a real, legitimate use for it.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:40:53 PM EST
how much will that cost me, and how mlong will long will it take. i know how to weld, can i put it on, if so, where would i get a long enough one??

cory
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:04:17 PM EST
There are several FH and muzzle brakes to choose from to get your barrel to the legal length for non-SBR status.

I'd recommend looking at the Mayland AR-15 Shooters Site for all the options and where to buy, etc. (see the "Makes M4s non-NFA" column)

Can't answer the "how long it'd take" question.

There is a letter tacked to a post re: permanently attaching a muzzle device as per ATF standards around, and you should be able to search for it; can't find it right now.

In short they have welding around the base to the barrel options or the more common "weld over a blind pin" option.

Cheers, Otto

BTW: if the upper was not advertised in the correct way, etc. you may have some recourse to void the sale -- I don't know Gunbrokers policies, nor how they would interpret the upper's description, etc.

I don't want to rain on anyones auction, but a non-chrome Shaw barreled 14.5 M4 upper on a basic flattop (I think it's not a bushmaster total assembly for all BM are chrome lined(?)) with no bolt/carrier or charging handle run in about the $340-350 range. I see one already sporting a permanent Phantom FH (to be 16" and non-SBR legal) regularly listed at $370, and a standard 16" at $340, chrome lined at $375. Just an FYI. Of course, Sellers are entitled to ask whatever they want.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:08:49 PM EST
thanks otto, if i can void the sale, i would be happy.

cory
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:20:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 1:20:41 PM EST by otto_esq]
"if i can void the sale, i would be happy"

I figured you would, if nothing more than the added headache of making the upper legal for your purposes by having to permanently attach the (longer) muzzle attachment.

The question to investigate is whether you are entitled to void the sale.

This is a contract law question, so I'd read the buyer agreement at the auction site to see if it is covered. This may be an issue between you and the seller -- something to be determined.
Voiding a contract is easier if you haven't paid yet.

BTW if you end up purchasing this upper and then paying more for it to be usable, or find after the fact you could have paid less elsewhere, you are in very good company.

Good luck.
Top Top