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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Frontier 55 grain boom and damaged extractor. *update Hornady says pound sand (Page 4 of 5)
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Thanks man. 
(Was actually looking at that earlier). 
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M193. I've not come across anything indicating issues in any of their other loadings. Other Frontier offerings have not seen the same frequency of problems. If you want to swear off Frontier ammo, Hornady or AR-15s for that matter, it's your choice. But the technical issues are mainly limited to one offering. |
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Quoted: No. What most likely happened is that Hornadys ( or LC who makes it for them) equipment was intermittently overcharging cases for a couple of lots and the employees and or supervisors didn't catch it. The guys who started shooting the affected lots had Kabooms and posted them online. The company didn't admit responsibility and blamed it on the firearms. Now some folks are scared to shoot it; even though, in all likelihood, the problem was caught and corrected a long time ago. |
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Quoted: This is pure speculation with no facts to support the claim. In all likely hood I will not buy any Frontier ammo. Plenty of folks, the overwhelming vast majority, have shot it with no problems. A few had Kabooms and or pressure issues. Nacho Man shot some in my thread.; with good results. I'm planning on shooting some this weekend. I'm not concerned. |
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It is speculation but so is the assumption that the ammunition, in general, is unsafe to shoot. Plenty of folks, the overwhelming vast majority, have shot it with no problems. A few had Kabooms and or pressure issues. Nacho Man shot some in my thread.; with good results. I'm planning on shooting some this weekend. I'm not concerned. Quoted:
Quoted: This is pure speculation with no facts to support the claim. In all likely hood I will not buy any Frontier ammo. Plenty of folks, the overwhelming vast majority, have shot it with no problems. A few had Kabooms and or pressure issues. Nacho Man shot some in my thread.; with good results. I'm planning on shooting some this weekend. I'm not concerned. 
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Quoted: It is speculation but so is the assumption that the ammunition, in general, is unsafe to shoot. Plenty of folks, the overwhelming vast majority, have shot it with no problems. A few had Kabooms and or pressure issues. Nacho Man shot some in my thread.; with good results. I'm planning on shooting some this weekend. I'm not concerned. You do not know what you are talking about, you've made that abundantly clear over the course of a few threads now. |
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Quoted: Those were not good results. His brass showed strong ejector flow. High pressure or soft brass. It was more than most M193 I have seen. You don’t know what you are speaking about saying that’s good. The primers aren't flattened and look normal to me. |
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Just stop. Seriously. You do not know what you are talking about, you've made that abundantly clear over the course of a few threads now. Folks on both sides of the discussion are speculating. None of us knows anything for sure. Those are the only facts besides a few known kabooms out of a lot more of the ammunition manufactured and shot; without incident. |
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Quoted: What makes you an expert on the subject? Folks on both sides of the discussion are speculating. None of us knows anything for sure. Those are the only facts besides a few kabooms out of a lot more of the ammunition manufactured and shot; without incident. Quoted: What makes you an expert on the subject? Folks on both sides of the discussion are speculating. None of us knows anything for sure. Those are the only facts besides a few kabooms out of a lot more of the ammunition manufactured and shot; without incident. 
No claim to be "expert". Nor do I carry on "speculating" and tossing around half assed theories or assumptions in an effort to validate a half assed decision to buy potentially fucked ammo as some here... The severe case head extrusion marks in the above pic is a classic sign of over pressure. But they "look good" to you. Quoted: Thanks. Everything looks good to me I'm planning on shooting some this weekend. |
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https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/PHOTO-20190823-135527-1064938.jpg No claim to be "expert". Nor do I carry on "speculating" and tossing around half assed theories or assumptions in an effort to validate a half assed decision to buy potentially fucked ammo as some here... The severe case head extrusion marks in the above pic is a classic sign of over pressure. But they "look good" to you. Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/PHOTO-20190823-135527-1064938.jpg No claim to be "expert". Nor do I carry on "speculating" and tossing around half assed theories or assumptions in an effort to validate a half assed decision to buy potentially fucked ammo as some here... The severe case head extrusion marks in the above pic is a classic sign of over pressure. But they "look good" to you. Quoted:
This was shot out of a 11.5 DTI upper with a H2. Very accurate but they are on the warm side. No abnormal wear is noted on the internals. I do have some of the casings from the AE223 and they had a good amount of ejector swipe too so I wouldn't just attribute this to the Frontier ammo alone. The Frontier casings did eject farther though. It's ammo loaded on the hotter side. |
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Are we set on this being an overpressure issue? I have a bunch of once fired Frontier brass I plan on reloading. Quoted:
Are we set on this being an overpressure issue? I have a bunch of once fired Frontier brass I plan on reloading. Quoted: Everything looks good to me . |
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Are we set on this being an overpressure issue? I have a bunch of once fired Frontier brass I plan on reloading. I plan on reloading mine. I've loaded a bunch of Frontier 5.56 Range Brass 5-6 times and never had an issue. |
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As Colombo used to say, one more thing.
It's perfectly normal for HOT (5.56 for example) factory ammunition to have SOME pressure signs;as it's made to be used once. (at that hot loading) For reloads, you want to load less hot and take having SOME pressure signs more seriously; because the brass is being reused several times. Make sense? |
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Quoted: Nacho Man had a good experience and praised the ammo. However, you want to find fault with it because it doesn't fit your speculation and narritive that this ammunition, in general, is potentially dangerous. Who would have thought? |
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Goddamn. I guess all these kaboom threads like this one are unwarranted derp. Who would have thought? However, we've uncovered that these are only three known affected lots ( all close together) that were attributed to these Kabooms. There are a bunch of folks ( the overwhelming vast majority) who had great luck with this ammunition. It's pure speculation that this problem is ongoing. |
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Quoted: It's pure speculation that this problem is ongoing. Quoted: It's pure speculation that this problem is ongoing. Quoted:
Hope it's good stuff. Supposed to be loaded to M193 velocity. Did I make a good purchase? Thread after thread of documented over pressure issues/damage, but you cite your own unsupported conclusions and lean on the reports of a handful of others that "had good luck " with a few hundred rounds. Yeah, its definitely all clear. This guy has done the legwork, show's over. Rest easy. |
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Quoted: Its pure speculation that all is clear. As you are pushing from an invested position. What, 14 days ago you bought a case? ^^^^ And you've not fired a round. You pulled a handful of bullets, made some half assed assumptions. Yet you have it all decided? I hope to fuck nobody is buying what you are pitching. Thread after thread of documented over pressure issues/damage, but you cite your own unsupported conclusions and lean on the reports of a handful of others that "had good luck " with a few hundred rounds. Yeah, its definitely all clear. This guy has done the legwork, show's over. Rest easy. It's just, IMO, unwarranted, fear. If one uses a little common sense, they would see that the problems a few individuals had ( with 3 older lots).is only a very tiny percentage of the folks who have used this ammunition; without incident. It's sold and used in large quantities everyday. PSA and other vendors wouldn't knowingly sell potentially dangerous ammunition; as they could be sued; if something really bad happens. The kabooms would be a far more frequent and ongoing occurrence if the problems weren't corrected. |
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I wonder how much of these pressure issues might be related to cheap barrels with questionable specs. Evidently this stuff is loaded hot. I'll find out for myself; possibly today. The hotter.the load, the greater chance you are going to run into problems. Why do you think many brands have downloaded their XM193 and XM855? Like Federal. Lots of "non top tier" ARs that can't handle it. Then folks complain that its not as hot as it used to be or underpowered. You are taking and elevated risk with the hotter stuff. The tradeoff is increased , velocity, fragmentation etc. There is no free lunch. With my reloads, I typically load them moderate. A) I want my brass to last more than two firings. B) I don't want blown primers, split necks early on, case head separation, kabooms etc. Now with reloads, if you have a loose primer pocket and it comes out; it's one thing.( It's worn, uncrimped etc) Not desirable but not usually overpressure.. On the other hand, if you are getting blown primers on new, crimped primer pocket brass; you've got SERIOUS pressure problems. |
| I LOVE those ad's. Laugh every time they get posted. |
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Shot it today. The ones marked with the x are the two I disassembled and reassembled; seating the bullet to 2.240.
I was checking the brass every few shots . I shot 20 rounds but foolishly lost one piece of brass because I forgot to put my brass catcher back on. It happens. Target is at 100 yards. I used a 16 inch Stag Carbine Gas Rifle, 1:9 twist; with a Sightmark Wolverine FSR 2moa red dot. Ammunition is very accurate and very much on the hot side. No problems detected whatsoever. I'm happy with my purchase. 
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Quoted: Between the shake test reference and this comment, you’ve bought way too much way too much BS info sold by other people here. Guys at my range who shoot it say the same thing. Also the shake test has some LIMITED uses. |
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Quoted: Those were not good results. His brass showed strong ejector flow. High pressure or soft brass. It was more than most M193 I have seen. You don't know what you are speaking about saying that's good. https://i.postimg.cc/P5rcTwYG/screenshot-65.png https://i.postimg.cc/7Z2zCBgS/screenshot-66.png https://i.postimg.cc/QCzBC5C6/screenshot-67.png |
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Can one of you guys school me on what I'm looking at here? Is the issue the markings around the edge of the case, or something to do with the primer? Or something else completely.. Quoted:
Quoted: Those were not good results. His brass showed strong ejector flow. High pressure or soft brass. It was more than most M193 I have seen. You don't know what you are speaking about saying that's good. https://i.postimg.cc/P5rcTwYG/screenshot-65.png https://i.postimg.cc/7Z2zCBgS/screenshot-66.png https://i.postimg.cc/QCzBC5C6/screenshot-67.png Here is a Frontier case from another kaboom, in almost all failed cases, the case fails at the case head, where the extractor does not fully support the case. This blows out the case head on this side, and allows the pressure to enter the bolt. However, notice the area marked in red? This is ejector flow. You will almost always (if not always) see this be pretty extreme on a kaboom. 
It is normal to see SOME ejector flow on SOME M193, in SOME guns. This is because M193 is above SAAMI spec for the 223 cartridge, and the higher chamber pressure will show this as a side effect. When ejector flow is high, you will also see the "swiping" which if the ejector flow area of the case get getting cut/shiny caused by bolt rotation while the brass is still obturated against the chamber. When you see a lot of swiping marks, with ejector flow, thats a sure sign of ONE of two things: high chamber pressure, or brass with incorrect hardness (too soft). It is almost always pressure, however. More ejector flow: 
A popped primer is also a sign of pressure, especially with significant ejector flow. 
In the above picture, you see popped primer, ejector flow, AND damage opposite the ejector from flow into the extractor void, or from hard extraction. |
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Quoted: It is normal to see SOME ejector flow on SOME M193, in SOME guns. This is because M193 is above SAAMI spec for the 223 cartridge, and the higher chamber pressure will show this as a side effect. |
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Ejector flow is when high chamber pressure causes the brass to move, swaging the case head and flowing into the the ejector. The ejector in the bolt is spring loaded, and will back out and allow brass to flow into this area. This is a really good inidication of high pressure. Flattened primers are not always good determinator of pressure signs, they are just one of multiple indicators. However, ejector flow is always a good determinator of high chamber pressure. Here is a Frontier case from another kaboom, in almost all failed cases, the case fails at the case head, where the extractor does not fully support the case. This blows out the case head on this side, and allows the pressure to enter the bolt. However, notice the area marked in red? This is ejector flow. You will almost always (if not always) see this be pretty extreme on a kaboom. https://i.postimg.cc/0jPW9PfQ/screenshot-68.png It is normal to see SOME ejector flow on SOME M193, in SOME guns. This is because M193 is above SAAMI spec for the 223 cartridge, and the higher chamber pressure will show this as a side effect. When ejector flow is high, you will also see the "swiping" which if the ejector flow area of the case get getting cut/shiny caused by bolt rotation while the brass is still obturated against the chamber. When you see a lot of swiping marks, with ejector flow, thats a sure sign of ONE of two things: high chamber pressure, or brass with incorrect hardness (too soft). It is almost always pressure, however. More ejector flow: https://i.postimg.cc/g2cRX4HD/screenshot-513.jpg A popped primer is also a sign of pressure, especially with significant ejector flow. https://i.postimg.cc/Dywy1NR8/screenshot-517.jpg In the above picture, you see popped primer, ejector flow, AND damage opposite the ejector from flow into the extractor void, or from hard extraction. Quoted:
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Quoted: Those were not good results. His brass showed strong ejector flow. High pressure or soft brass. It was more than most M193 I have seen. You don't know what you are speaking about saying that's good. https://i.postimg.cc/P5rcTwYG/screenshot-65.png https://i.postimg.cc/7Z2zCBgS/screenshot-66.png https://i.postimg.cc/QCzBC5C6/screenshot-67.png Here is a Frontier case from another kaboom, in almost all failed cases, the case fails at the case head, where the extractor does not fully support the case. This blows out the case head on this side, and allows the pressure to enter the bolt. However, notice the area marked in red? This is ejector flow. You will almost always (if not always) see this be pretty extreme on a kaboom. https://i.postimg.cc/0jPW9PfQ/screenshot-68.png It is normal to see SOME ejector flow on SOME M193, in SOME guns. This is because M193 is above SAAMI spec for the 223 cartridge, and the higher chamber pressure will show this as a side effect. When ejector flow is high, you will also see the "swiping" which if the ejector flow area of the case get getting cut/shiny caused by bolt rotation while the brass is still obturated against the chamber. When you see a lot of swiping marks, with ejector flow, thats a sure sign of ONE of two things: high chamber pressure, or brass with incorrect hardness (too soft). It is almost always pressure, however. More ejector flow: https://i.postimg.cc/g2cRX4HD/screenshot-513.jpg A popped primer is also a sign of pressure, especially with significant ejector flow. https://i.postimg.cc/Dywy1NR8/screenshot-517.jpg In the above picture, you see popped primer, ejector flow, AND damage opposite the ejector from flow into the extractor void, or from hard extraction. I'll start watching my brass a little more closely now. I don't have any Frontier, but I do have a bunch of couple-year-old IMI stuff that I kinda remember people mentioning as possibly 'hot'. Good education for me, thanks again. |
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Quoted: Ejector flow is when high chamber pressure causes the brass to move, swaging the case head and flowing into the the ejector. The ejector in the bolt is spring loaded, and will back out and allow brass to flow into this area. This is a really good inidication of high pressure. Flattened primers are not always good determinator of pressure signs, they are just one of multiple indicators. However, ejector flow is always a good determinator of high chamber pressure. Here is a Frontier case from another kaboom, in almost all failed cases, the case fails at the case head, where the extractor does not fully support the case. This blows out the case head on this side, and allows the pressure to enter the bolt. However, notice the area marked in red? This is ejector flow. You will almost always (if not always) see this be pretty extreme on a kaboom. https://i.postimg.cc/0jPW9PfQ/screenshot-68.png It is normal to see SOME ejector flow on SOME M193, in SOME guns. This is because M193 is above SAAMI spec for the 223 cartridge, and the higher chamber pressure will show this as a side effect. When ejector flow is high, you will also see the "swiping" which if the ejector flow area of the case get getting cut/shiny caused by bolt rotation while the brass is still obturated against the chamber. When you see a lot of swiping marks, with ejector flow, thats a sure sign of ONE of two things: high chamber pressure, or brass with incorrect hardness (too soft). It is almost always pressure, however. More ejector flow: https://i.postimg.cc/g2cRX4HD/screenshot-513.jpg A popped primer is also a sign of pressure, especially with significant ejector flow. https://i.postimg.cc/Dywy1NR8/screenshot-517.jpg In the above picture, you see popped primer, ejector flow, AND damage opposite the ejector from flow into the extractor void, or from hard extraction. |
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Quoted: I've read about Federal being downloaded from several sources; other than Blain. Guys at my range who shoot it say the same thing. Also the shake test has some LIMITED uses. |
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Yet another hornady frontier victim With so many other options out there you would think everyone would just sell their frontier 55gr to ItalianStallion and let him live on the wild side 55 grains of hand grenade in a Hornady box |
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Quoted: Unless you can point to a source that is involved with the making or selling of Federal Lake City product, I’ll stand by my statement. You and every other internet commando don’t know a damn thing about what you’re talking about. Federal 5.56 product is loaded to the same damn powder/primer/projectile spec as govt. There may be variation between lots because it doesn’t have to meet milspec. That’s it. |
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Yet another hornady frontier victim With so many other options out there you would think everyone would just sell their frontier 55gr to ItalianStallion and let him live on the wild side 55 grains of hand grenade in a Hornady box I'm not a pussy. I'll shoot it. |
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Sir, I respectfully disagree. Quoted:
Quoted: Unless you can point to a source that is involved with the making or selling of Federal Lake City product, I’ll stand by my statement. You and every other internet commando don’t know a damn thing about what you’re talking about. Federal 5.56 product is loaded to the same damn powder/primer/projectile spec as govt. There may be variation between lots because it doesn’t have to meet milspec. That’s it. Cite facts/sources if it is for any reason other than just to disagree. |
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Why? Cite facts/sources if it is for any reason other than just to disagree. |
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Why? Cite facts/sources if it is for any reason other than just to disagree. But..... Because a handful of guys have posted Kaboom threads with Fronter 5.56 ( limited to three known lots), out of the millions or tens of millions of rounds produced; I should take their small sample size seriously and avoid it.... At least with the the Federal XM193 their is chronograph data to back up my assertion. |
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Quoted: He’s regurgitating shit he’s consumed. Nothing more, nothing less. A few hand loaders trying to dissect an extremely small sample size of anything ran out of mass production IS data. It’s just not significant. And it’s certainly not proof of any directive of short charging the powder drop. Dude has no concept of the kind of volumes that get cranked out. I’ll leave him alone if he can provide a source. But it won’t happen. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/---WARNING----PSA-Against-Federal-XM193---/5-2149761/ The guys reaction is over the top but that doesn't negate the chronograph results. |
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Why? Cite facts/sources if it is for any reason other than just to disagree. Quoted:
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Quoted: Unless you can point to a source that is involved with the making or selling of Federal Lake City product, I’ll stand by my statement. You and every other internet commando don’t know a damn thing about what you’re talking about. Federal 5.56 product is loaded to the same damn powder/primer/projectile spec as govt. There may be variation between lots because it doesn’t have to meet milspec. That’s it. Cite facts/sources if it is for any reason other than just to disagree. Quoted:
Blain |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Frontier 55 grain boom and damaged extractor. *update Hornady says pound sand (Page 4 of 5)
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