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Posted: 11/19/2017 5:25:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Looking for opinions on a tier 1 BCG that will be used in a suppressed 300 blackout build. I have a BCM and a Daniel Defense already but wouldn't mind picking something else up if there are any better ones out there. Who makes a good NP3 one? Preferably something that doesn't have a gigantic logo all over it |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 5:30:09 AM EDT
[#2]
You've got some from a couple of the highly regarded makers. I usually stick to Smith Enterprises or Colt, but wouldn't hesitate to use either from BCM or DD. The Smith's are great because all they have is the little SE in the shield as a mark, about the size of the C on the Colts.
Never used anything with NP3, but seems a good coating. The Smith's that are my favorites and go to's were standard phosphate and hard chrome. The chrome is real easy to clean and shoes very little wear. The AXTS I have also shows little wear and is easy to clean, but it does have a logo. Only mention cleaning because suppressed from my understanding is dirty. Someone will chime in with more info than I can provide in NP3 |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:07:06 AM EDT
[#3]
I just stick with Tool Craft since they are contracted to make BCGs for the actually military but don't charge an extra $50 for branding or WMD NiB-X because of their lifetime warranty on the finish and their components are also made by defense contractors. The WMD NiB-X coating tested pretty successfully with the Military. Never really looked into NP3.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 7:59:20 AM EDT
[#4]
tool craft, spend the $90 you saved on more ammo.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 10:07:43 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
tool craft, spend the $90 you saved on more ammo. |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 5:59:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Cryptic coatings is pretty darn nice.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:02:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Toolcraft SBN with BCM extractor spring is best bang for your buck IMO
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:02:08 PM EDT
[#8]
ToolCraft...aim surplus, psa premium etc....lots of great mfr's with quality bcg's without having to pay extra for a logo stamped on the side.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:02:30 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Palmetto state premium Np3 |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:35:43 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 11/19/2017 6:49:26 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 11/19/2017 10:28:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Just know the NP3 is next to useless other than for cleaning, and not even that big of a deal on that.
It won't hold up as well as chromed either, so corrosion will still be a consideration (though not a big one). LMT has some very much enhanced stuff. For suppressed, I'd say get either an adjustable gas block (best) or carrier (next best). Either way, ones that adjust easy and without special tools. Unless you plan to leave it suppressed all the time, forever. Then you'll still need an adjustable something to throttle down the gas. |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 10:38:04 PM EDT
[#13]
NP3 has a low coefficient of friction. It is slick. And it holds up pretty well. I prefer it to Nickel Boron.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 11:13:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Gemtech carriers are really nice to have on a suppressed upper. Gives you some gas adjustment. Work wonders calming down an overgassed upper like a MK18. If you dont think you need that then, while yes DD BCG's are highly regarded and I own a few myself, there are less expensive options that will for all purposes work just fine.
Coated BCG's are nice to have and seem easier to clean. |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 11:45:21 AM EDT
[#15]
I have many carriers, but the DD phosphate has taken piles of suppressed, overgassed abuse, and carries on without a broken lug. Anecdotal praise, but it will be in my go-to gun forever.
I have the chrome DD carrier in 2 other rifles, and they are so easy to clean, that I wish they were in all my ARs. I like them better than my WMD Nibo |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 12:29:33 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 11/22/2017 8:02:27 PM EDT
[#17]
I use BCM and DD as well.
Just recently tried a Sionics NP3 BCG and their standard BCG and both are great. |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 8:26:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're welcome. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 8:54:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're welcome for what? Offering a garbage bcg with a worse coating? Nitride messes with the heat treatment, I wouldn't use it for a coating on a bolt. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. 
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Posted: 11/22/2017 9:02:14 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. Toolcraft is garbage huh. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You're welcome for what? Offering a garbage bcg with a worse coating? Nitride messes with the heat treatment, I wouldn't use it for a coating on a bolt. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 9:07:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ToolCraft...aim surplus, psa premium etc....lots of great mfr's with quality bcg's without having to pay extra for a logo stamped on the side. lining, so I contacted them and they said send it back. Got a replacement and its PERFECT..as in FLAWLESS. TC makes a quality product and they stand behind it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 9:28:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is when it's nitrided. How many TC SBN bolts have you had fail on you? |
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Posted: 11/22/2017 9:53:49 PM EDT
[#23]
JP or LMT are probably the best BCG’s out there. Just be careful with the LMT. I forget which, but Euther the enhanced carrier or enhanced bolt was designed for overgassed guns. So if you are running undergassed it might cause issues.
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Posted: 11/22/2017 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
tool craft, spend the $90 you saved on more ammo. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 10:03:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're welcome for what? Offering a garbage bcg with a worse coating? Nitride messes with the heat treatment, I wouldn't use it for a coating on a bolt. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 10:14:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Try this sale on Toolcraft Phosphate BCG's if nitrate is a concern
https://www.righttobear.com/Toolcraft-Phosphate-158-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-B-p/tooauto-011.htm I got a couple here from the last sale they did, looks great to me. I sold 1 to a friend and might snag 1-2 more depending on what I buy this weekend on the sales |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 3:46:09 PM EDT
[#27]
@CMSENGINE any thoughts on Blain's claims?
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Posted: 11/23/2017 4:18:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is when it's nitrided. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You're welcome for what? Offering a garbage bcg with a worse coating? Nitride messes with the heat treatment, I wouldn't use it for a coating on a bolt. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. My only experience with a nitrided bolt ended quickly with it chipping around the cam pin hole after only two 30 round mags. This was a C158 bolt and was from one of the most trusted manufacturers around. I had them replace it with a standard heavy phosphate C158 bolt and have since gone through two cases of ammo without issue. Since then, I've done quite a bit of research into the melonite/nitriding process and don't think it's best suited for use with rifle bolts. I know others have no problems using them, but I have not seen any data on high round count examples and most on here don't shoot as much as you would think. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 4:37:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I tend to agree. My only experience with a nitrided bolt ended quickly with it chipping around the cam pin hole after only two 30 round mags. This was a C158 bolt and was from one of the most trusted manufacturers around. I had them replace it with a standard heavy phosphate C158 bolt and have since gone through two cases of ammo without issue. Since then, I've done quite a bit of research into the melonite/nitriding process and don't think it's best suited for use with rifle bolts. I know others have no problems using them, but I have not seen any data on high round count examples and most on here don't shoot as much as you would think. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You're welcome for what? Offering a garbage bcg with a worse coating? Nitride messes with the heat treatment, I wouldn't use it for a coating on a bolt. Hard chrome as done by Daniel Defense and Rock River is the best. NP3 is the second best. DSA has np3 bcg for a very reasonable price. It greatly enhances your weapons reliability contrary to the naysayers claims and is a vital part of a serious use rifle. I'm going to start a thread on why later, but trust me, you want it. My only experience with a nitrided bolt ended quickly with it chipping around the cam pin hole after only two 30 round mags. This was a C158 bolt and was from one of the most trusted manufacturers around. I had them replace it with a standard heavy phosphate C158 bolt and have since gone through two cases of ammo without issue. Since then, I've done quite a bit of research into the melonite/nitriding process and don't think it's best suited for use with rifle bolts. I know others have no problems using them, but I have not seen any data on high round count examples and most on here don't shoot as much as you would think. Most (not all, like in 871JZ's case) of these nitrided bolts are 9130. Disadvantage there is that the heat treatment for 9130 seems to be especially critical, and the Nitride process has the potential to completely screw up the heat treat. During the panic of '12-'13 there were lots of reports here of 9130 bolts broken, often times with very few rounds fired through them. They often broke at the bolt lugs vs the cam pin hole, and quite often broke multiple lugs at the same time. I'm a fan of the tried and true C158, preferably from a known source, such as Colt or BCM. Reality is that cleaning the bolts and the BCG really isn't that tough to begin with. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 4:54:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm there with you. Most (not all, like in 871JZ's case) of these nitrided bolts are 9130. Disadvantage there is that the heat treatment for 9130 seems to be especially critical, and the Nitride process has the potential to completely screw up the heat treat. During the panic of '12-'13 there were lots of reports here of 9130 bolts broken, often times with very few rounds fired through them. They often broke at the bolt lugs vs the cam pin hole, and quite often broke multiple lugs at the same time. I'm a fan of the tried and true C158, preferably from a known source, such as Colt or BCM. Reality is that cleaning the bolts and the BCG really isn't that tough to begin with. I shoot a lot, including suppressed, so my bolts are nasty and still don't have any trouble cleaning. I use a Real Avid tool which makes it about a 5 minute job, not matter how caked on the carbon gets. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:00:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Ah, the old "I'm a serious shooter and other people who like what I don't like just dont actually shoot so therefore their opinion isnt valid" defense. Classic arfcom. I've had 158 and 9310 SBN BCGs with a couple K spread between them and they work fine. Just like my NiB. And my phosphate. Go figure. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:37:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, the old "I'm a serious shooter and other people who like what I don't like just dont actually shoot so therefore their opinion isnt valid" defense. Classic arfcom. I've had 158 and 9310 SBN BCGs with a couple K spread between them and they work fine. Just like my NiB. And my phosphate. Go figure. Mine failed after 60 rounds and I replaced it with a non-nitrided bolt that's gone over 2k rounds without a problem. Don't get so offended if someone doesn't like whatever it is that you like. Again, I've yet to see any info regarding the lifespan of nitride C158 bolts. The history of non-treated bolts is well documented, to include decades of high round count non-treated C158 bolts that have been extremely reliable. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:42:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where'd you come up with that shit? I never said nobody else's opinion was valid, I simply stated my opinion WITH my personal experience. In fact, I even stated that I know others use them without issue. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't your thing. Mine failed after 60 rounds and I replaced it with a non-nitrided bolt that's gone over 2k rounds without a problem. Don't get so offended if someone doesn't like whatever it is that you like. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:47:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not offended at all. I don't really care which of the three people use. I own all types so obviously have no dog in the fight. Point is they all work. You got a lemon, it happens. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Where'd you come up with that shit? I never said nobody else's opinion was valid, I simply stated my opinion WITH my personal experience. In fact, I even stated that I know others use them without issue. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't your thing. Mine failed after 60 rounds and I replaced it with a non-nitrided bolt that's gone over 2k rounds without a problem. Don't get so offended if someone doesn't like whatever it is that you like. If you really wanna get into it, I've seen MANY more failed nitrided bolts, especially 9310 bolts, than I have C158 phosphated bolts. And this has already been pointed out by others in this very thread. If you don't like it or agree with it, don't know what to tell you. Also, I put a lot of trust in the R&D behind manufacturers such as DD, BCM, COLT, LMT, KAC, etc. I don't see ANY of them offering nitrided bolts, or 9310 bolts. I also think there's some merit to that. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:56:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@CMSENGINE any thoughts on Blain's claims? |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 5:59:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In to read his comments. IIRC CMSENGINE no longer uses nitride bolts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
@CMSENGINE any thoughts on Blain's claims? |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:04:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might be right. Did I say all nitrided bolts were shit?  Oh? Blain says its a garbage BCG with an even worse coating. You quote him and say you tend to agree. But now you're not saying nitride isn't a shit coating? Nice backtracking. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:06:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In to read his comments. IIRC CMSENGINE no longer uses nitride bolts. "Toolcraft does not make their own bolts. Just carriers. The bolts they use are top of the line. They offer 158 and 9310. Parkerized or nitrided. They are all I use. Not one single issue. I spec out every single bolt I get thinking at some point I will get one that is borderline. Not one yet. Amazed . Great people to deal with. Craig" |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:18:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh? Blain says its a garbage BCG with an even worse coating. You quote him and say you tend to agree. But now you're not saying nitride isn't a shit coating? Nice backtracking. Second, I prefer bolts not to be nitrided, simply because there is the risk of screwing up the heat treating, which is already something some manufactures have an issue getting right to begin with. You weren't a member here in the 2012-2013 time frame when we were seeing quite a few 9130 bolts that were breaking due to shitty heat treating. Wasn't just one company that was guilty of it as well, it was relatively common. So for me, I prefer a good Carpenter 158 bolt that hasn't been nitrided. And I prefer specific manufacturers, who have built a track record who I can trust. As for what you prefer to buy, well, I don't really care. You make your decisions based on the information that you have. I will state my opinion, and if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it. All that said, as time goes on, companies get better with the various processes. We are already seeing 9130 bolts that are lasting longer, so there has clearly been an improvement there. I would expect to see the same with the nitride process as well. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:24:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Since we are on the topic, is this BCG a tool craft?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html If so, it's the cheapest price I found. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:27:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First, it's not really a coating. Second, I prefer bolts not to be nitrided, simply because there is the risk of screwing up the heat treating, which is already something some manufactures have an issue getting right to begin with. You weren't a member here in the 2012-2013 time frame when we were seeing quite a few 9130 bolts that were breaking due to shitty heat treating. Wasn't just one company that was guilty of it as well, it was relatively common. So for me, I prefer a good Carpenter 158 bolt that hasn't been nitrided. And I prefer specific manufacturers, who have built a track record who I can trust. As for what you prefer to buy, well, I don't really care. You make your decisions based on the information that you have. I will state my opinion, and if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it. All that said, as time goes on, companies get better with the various processes. We are already seeing 9130 bolts that are lasting longer, so there has clearly been an improvement there. I would expect to see the same with the nitride process as well. Its 9310 by the way. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:28:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh? Blain says its a garbage BCG with an even worse coating. You quote him and say you tend to agree. But now you're not saying nitride isn't a shit coating? Nice backtracking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You might be right. Did I say all nitrided bolts were shit? Oh? Blain says its a garbage BCG with an even worse coating. You quote him and say you tend to agree. But now you're not saying nitride isn't a shit coating? Nice backtracking. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:29:56 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coating, treament, whatever. Its 9310 by the way. Let's try it your way. 9130, 9310, whatever. 
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:38:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JP or LMT are probably the best BCG’s out there. Just be careful with the LMT. I forget which, but Euther the enhanced carrier or enhanced bolt was designed for overgassed guns. So if you are running undergassed it might cause issues. It runs VERY smooth and my rifle gets WAY less dirty with it. It's amazing. The only downside is cost. I think the carrier alone is like $135-165. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:46:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Coating, treament, whatever. Its 9310 by the way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
First, it's not really a coating. Second, I prefer bolts not to be nitrided, simply because there is the risk of screwing up the heat treating, which is already something some manufactures have an issue getting right to begin with. You weren't a member here in the 2012-2013 time frame when we were seeing quite a few 9130 bolts that were breaking due to shitty heat treating. Wasn't just one company that was guilty of it as well, it was relatively common. So for me, I prefer a good Carpenter 158 bolt that hasn't been nitrided. And I prefer specific manufacturers, who have built a track record who I can trust. As for what you prefer to buy, well, I don't really care. You make your decisions based on the information that you have. I will state my opinion, and if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it. All that said, as time goes on, companies get better with the various processes. We are already seeing 9130 bolts that are lasting longer, so there has clearly been an improvement there. I would expect to see the same with the nitride process as well. Its 9310 by the way. 
Either way, we live in a great time, when we have a choice of materials, manufacturers, finishes, etc, many at very affordable prices. |
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:48:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It shows your lack of knowledge on the subject when you keep getting it wrong, especially when you then go on to try and correct others. Let's try it your way. 9130, 9310, whatever. Keep getting it wrong? LOL what in the fuck are you talking about? Go on, I'll wait. Certainly by keep you don't mean the lone instance of me calling it a coating in reference to Blain's post..right? Right? Oh..happy Thanksgiving, gents
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Posted: 11/23/2017 6:49:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your right. I transpose numbers occasionally.
Either way, we live in a great time, when we have a choice of materials, manufacturers, finishes, etc, many at very affordable prices. 
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Posted: 11/23/2017 7:01:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dense, aren't you? Coating is what Blain called it hence when I referred to his post that's what I said. 9130 is just flat out incorrect and yet said it multiple times of his own volition. Keep getting it wrong? LOL what in the fuck are you talking about? Go on, I'll wait. Certainly by keep you don't mean the lone instance of me calling it a coating in reference to Blain's post..right? Right? Oh..happy Thanksgiving, gents Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It shows your lack of knowledge on the subject when you keep getting it wrong, especially when you then go on to try and correct others. Let's try it your way. 9130, 9310, whatever. Keep getting it wrong? LOL what in the fuck are you talking about? Go on, I'll wait. Certainly by keep you don't mean the lone instance of me calling it a coating in reference to Blain's post..right? Right? Oh..happy Thanksgiving, gents
BTW, still nothing of substance. Just a bunch of whining because not everyone here thinks the way you do. Happy Thanksgiving. 
ETA: Also, to respond to your edit, you referenced Blain's post, and then in your own words called it a coating again. That isn't "a lone instance". That's twice. So, yes, "keep" was the right term for me to use. You can stop waiting now since I'm right again. Enjoy the rest of your turkey day.
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Posted: 11/23/2017 7:11:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ETA: Also, you referenced Blain's post, and then in your own words called it a coating again. That isn't "a lone instance". That's twice. So, yes, "keep" was the right term for me to use. You can stop waiting now since I'm right again. Enjoy the rest of your turkey day. I hope you arent talking about where I said "coating, treatment, whatever". If so you're really reaching. Those terms are in common usage loosely interchangeable. Do you work with metals? Are 9130 and 9310 ok to mix up in manufacturing? Is 6061 vs 6063 aluminum just a difference in terminology? How about 7005 and 7075? Is it OK to mix those up? Right again? 
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Posted: 11/23/2017 7:14:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since we are on the topic, is this BCG A tool craft? http://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html If so, it's the cheapest price I found. |
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