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Posted: 12/27/2020 8:26:00 AM EDT
[#1]
I have a home built 20” A4 with the removable A2 handle, the rear sight is almost to the left side but is zero’d. If your rifle is zero’d with a couple of clicks still left, you are GTG. I cannot quite tell from your post but set your rifle upside down on its sights, do the ears of the FSB touch the flat surface on both ears? Thats my quick way to see if FSB is canted on the fly.
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Posted: 12/27/2020 9:46:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Loosen your barrel nut, then tighten while securing the barrel, not the upper. The clearance between the barrel pin and receiver will cause the front sight to rotate to the right.
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Posted: 12/27/2020 10:49:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 12/27/2020 12:06:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Loosen your barrel nut, then tighten while securing the barrel, not the upper. The clearance between the barrel pin and receiver will cause the front sight to rotate to the right. I hate to say it, but when you have a canted front sight like this you can send it to ADCO to have them pin it on straight with large diameter pins, you can live with it (it will mess with the cowitness of a red dot in an optical aberration sense), you can buy a new barrel, or you can cut the front sight base down. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 1:43:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen this technique recommended a few times and it makes perfect sense in theory, but I'm not sure it's a great solution. Sometimes there's no wobble at all between the barrel and receiver. Sometimes even if you have some wobble it's not going to be enough. I've never seen anyone report that they actually did this and it was successful. I hate to say it, but when you have a canted front sight like this you can send it to ADCO to have them pin it on straight with large diameter pins, you can live with it (it will mess with the cowitness of a red dot in an optical aberration sense), you can buy a new barrel, or you can cut the front sight base down. How does it affect co-witness? Creates a tiny reflection of the dot by chance? I ask as my other AR has Aimpoint and also has a leftward Cant, flip up sights is basically in the same spot. Doesn't look nearly as bad in these pics I just took, but I took them in ways that you can do some aligning with other things in correlation to see it best! The front post is visibly canted the to left of the front of an MOE handguard, the right side of the outer edge of the vertical center ridge on the front post touches the center ridge on the MOE handguard. I don't think tightening the barrel will do, this is a Spikes factory rifle Btw, middle with 16" barrel. Just looks canted, same as any AK I've ever owned, I swear they don't make rifles with straight sights as a crime control measure for those who don't zero, or my luck is just shit. Lol. Hell, if my local AR smith (former USMC Armorer) can do in a timely manner, his rates are great, sometimes he's just not big on measuring and getting things 100% straight. He eyeballs it. Wouldn't mind new handguard retainers if its basically the same job. Pic #1 Pic #2 Pic #3 Pic #4 |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 2:13:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Loosen your barrel nut, then tighten while securing the barrel, not the upper. The clearance between the barrel pin and receiver will cause the front sight to rotate to the right. I would give this a try. You can also shim the left side of the index pin/notch if there is enough play or even file a little off the right side of the pin, or the notch, to get some clearance to shim it. Other than OCD kicking in, if you can get zeroed you are GTG, although that is a significant windage correction. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 2:27:42 PM EDT
[#7]
It's fine OP. These are combat rifles.
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Posted: 12/27/2020 2:32:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would give this a try. You can also shim the left side of the index pin/notch if there is enough play or even file a little off the right side of the pin, or the notch, to get some clearance to shim it. Other than OCD kicking in, if you can get zeroed you are GTG, although that is a significant windage correction. Are you referring to the pins in the front sight being shimmed? Oddly, the front horns both touched the floor when upside down, unless the Daniel Defense is a tad uneven being mounted in the final slot at the back like I saw in most example pic, but it was on linoleum so need to try again on wood. Its odd, rather than looking canted/twisted, it looks offset. Hopefully the barrel isn't off in some way. Unless both front ears touching the floor is normal unless they are more off than these (which from the adjustment, it looks as if these are pretty bad, although I adjusted until the target was centered "enough" looking into the actual barrel for a rough windage alignment. When the Rear Sights first came centered, the 4 inch circle at 35-40 yards wasn't originally even showing up inside of the bore, I made sure to mount the upper it and keep re-adjusting properly after every click. Again though, the front seems more "off center" than twisted, but maybe that's just an illusion when correlating the notch in the middle of the 45 degree front post VS the handguard top ridge. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 3:17:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Are you referring to the pins in the front sight being shimmed? No, the indexing pin in the extension that goes in the slot in the receiver. You can then twist the entire barrel assembly to the right, and therefore the front sight, a little without affecting function. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 3:41:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Have you tried calling spikes? They might just send you a new upper
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Posted: 12/27/2020 3:42:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does it affect co-witness? Creates a tiny reflection of the dot by chance? I ask as my other AR has Aimpoint and also has a leftward Cant, flip up sights is basically in the same spot. Doesn't look nearly as bad in these pics I just took, but I took them in ways that you can do some aligning with other things in correlation to see it best! The front post is visibly canted the to left of the front of an MOE handguard, the right side of the outer edge of the vertical center ridge on the front post touches the center ridge on the MOE handguard. I don't think tightening the barrel will do, this is a Spikes factory rifle Btw, middle with 16" barrel. Just looks canted, same as any AK I've ever owned, I swear they don't make rifles with straight sights as a crime control measure for those who don't zero, or my luck is just shit. Lol. Hell, if my local AR smith (former USMC Armorer) can do in a timely manner, his rates are great, sometimes he's just not big on measuring and getting things 100% straight. He eyeballs it. Wouldn't mind new handguard retainers if its basically the same job. Pic #1 Pic #2 Pic #3 Pic #4 You have a canted FSB. The handguard retainers aren't the problem. It's not a huge deal. You could just use the rifle as-is. I've seen some like that before (including a Colt 6920). If you really want the FSB straight then send it to ADCO. The correct way to install a barrel is to hold the upper receiver securely in a vise while torquing the barrel nut. This will prevent deformation of the index pin. It will make the FSB go to the left because as the torquing is happening the barrel has force on it to the left (but not enough to matter unless it's really loose). What other posters in the thread are suggesting is that you install the barrel with an improper method where you hold the barrel extension (Geissele reaction rod) or the barrel (barrel blocks like USGI armorers might have done because they were used to working on M14s) while you torque the nut on. This will move it to the right. This is how index pin notches and index pins get deformed, and even if you do that you still will probably only get 1-3 clicks of windage back. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 5:19:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen this technique recommended a few times and it makes perfect sense in theory, but I'm not sure it's a great solution. Sometimes there's no wobble at all between the barrel and receiver. Sometimes even if you have some wobble it's not going to be enough. I’ve never seen anyone report that they actually did this and it was successful. I hate to say it, but when you have a canted front sight like this you can send it to ADCO to have them pin it on straight with large diameter pins, you can live with it (it will mess with the cowitness of a red dot in an optical aberration sense), you can buy a new barrel, or you can cut the front sight base down. I did just this to fix an identical problem I had with a 601 upper I bought from Brownells. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/601-build-now-finished/123-740666/#i7903230 A couple degrees movement is all that is necessary. That front sight perched way above the barrel’s centerline only needs a little angular movement to sort this out. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 6:54:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Fixed front sight posts are drilled and pinned while installed on the barrel in one shot. If you have a canted one, a gunsmith would have to essentially "re-drill" the pin holes at a different angle to correct. You can try rotating the barrel a little in the receiver as recommended, but you might not have any wiggle room in the index slot. Adco might be able to fix it, i know they do FSB installs and shave downs, but I would ask about correcting one. If it really bothers you and no one can fix it, you can always go the free float rail route.
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Posted: 12/27/2020 7:15:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you tried calling spikes? They might just send you a new upper This. Spike’s has great customer service, and they’ll take care of you. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 8:24:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Have someone stand next to you w/ a shot timer & cattle prod... You wont even notice its off-center.
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Posted: 12/28/2020 2:29:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Spike’s has great customer service, and they’ll take care of you. I've had it atleast 5 years, only one mag fired through it. Would that affect them helping? This Spike's upper was 500-550 bucks like 5 years ago on AIM, one reason I'm pissed that the FSB is canted. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 3:09:37 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had it atleast 5 years, only one mag fired through it. Would that affect them helping? This Spike's upper was 500-550 bucks like 5 years ago on AIM, one reason I'm pissed that the FSB is canted. It can happen with any fixed front sight from any company. I've seen bad ones from BCM, Colt, Spikes, and FNH. You might not remember it, but Colt put out some SOCOM pinned and welded guns about 4 years ago through Davidsons. A higher than normal percentage of the ones we got had canted front sights. Rumor was that the barrels were from a lot that didn't pass QC... |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 9:11:07 AM EDT
[#18]
Tag because I have the same problem with a PSA upper and I don't think they have replacements now.
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Posted: 12/28/2020 9:15:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had it atleast 5 years, only one mag fired through it. Would that affect them helping? This Spike's upper was 500-550 bucks like 5 years ago on AIM, one reason I'm pissed that the FSB is canted. Call them - the worst they can do is say no :) (407) 928-2666 I'be be surprised if they did, though. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 6:31:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It affects cowitness meaning that if you zero your irons with the optic off then when you put the optic on the dot will not coincide with the iron sight picture. If you zero both with the optic on, then when you take the optic off you might not be on with the irons. You have a canted FSB. The handguard retainers aren't the problem. It's not a huge deal. You could just use the rifle as-is. I've seen some like that before (including a Colt 6920). If you really want the FSB straight then send it to ADCO. The correct way to install a barrel is to hold the upper receiver securely in a vise while torquing the barrel nut. This will prevent deformation of the index pin. It will make the FSB go to the left because as the torquing is happening the barrel has force on it to the left (but not enough to matter unless it's really loose). What other posters in the thread are suggesting is that you install the barrel with an improper method where you hold the barrel extension (Geissele reaction rod) or the barrel (barrel blocks like USGI armorers might have done because they were used to working on M14s) while you torque the nut on. This will move it to the right. This is how index pin notches and index pins get deformed, and even if you do that you still will probably only get 1-3 clicks of windage back. Crazy thing is, I used a zeroed Aimpoint to zero the flip-ups on a carbine, and they are shifted far to the left also. Would that technique be the most proper way? Or are you saying that my Irons on my other AR being drifted to the left to match the red dot may not be true? When cowitnessing with that one, the dot os directly on top of the front peg. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 7:10:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Loosen your barrel nut, then tighten while securing the barrel, not the upper. The clearance between the barrel pin and receiver will cause the front sight to rotate to the right. Your gas tube can get out of alignment with the gas key with this method. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 7:44:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your gas tube can get out of alignment with the gas key with this method. If the front sight is canted, it might already be slightly out of alignment. The barrel would have to move opposite of the cant so, in theory, it would center the tube more compared to where it originally was. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 9:07:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the front sight is canted, it might already be slightly out of alignment. The barrel would have to move opposite of the cant so, in theory, it would center the tube more compared to where it originally was. Agree. Either the FSB is indexed improperly or the extension/indexing pin is. If the FSB is to blame the only issue may be the lugs and feedramps will not be 100% true after the correction, but the bolt has enough freedom to move that a couple of degrees won't matter. If the indexing pin is to blame, the lugs and feed ramps are already off and will only be corrected. If the gun runs now, it will run after. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 10:09:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crazy thing is, I used a zeroed Aimpoint to zero the flip-ups on a carbine, and they are shifted far to the left also. Would that technique be the most proper way? Or are you saying that my Irons on my other AR being drifted to the left to match the red dot may not be true? When cowitnessing with that one, the dot os directly on top of the front peg. 1) You zero the irons with the red dot off the gun with live fire. Then you put the red dot on and zero it independent of the irons with live fire. This is a good method if you think you might need the irons with the red dot off the gun. For example if you're in an environment where your optic has fogged up or the glass is covered in mud. You either use QD or have a tool handy to remove the optic in an emergency. 2) You zero the irons through the red dot with live fire. Then you zero the red dot independent of the irons with live fire. This is if you are expecting in an emergency that your dot will just go dead but you'll still be able to see the irons through the optic. 3) You zero the red dot with live fire, then you move the BUIS to the red dot without actually firing the gun. This is a good way to get close but it may not be a true zero for your irons. In my experience it's closer if the irons are looking closer to the center of the dot due to parallax in the red dot. Your red dot is zeroed in the center of the optic, any position of the red dot outside the center is subject to parallax error. My favorite way to do it is #1. I like the idea of having a true iron sight zero with my optic off the gun. #1 and #2 are supposed to be the same but some optics have aberration in the glass that bends the image (people say the Aimpoint T2 has this issue a lot). So your iron sight zero can be very different looking through the optic vs. shooting without the optic on. |
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Posted: 12/28/2020 10:11:55 PM EDT
[#25]
do you own a bandsaw?
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Posted: 12/29/2020 12:49:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are three ways to zero a gun with irons and a red dot cowitnessing: 1) You zero the irons with the red dot off the gun with live fire. Then you put the red dot on and zero it independent of the irons with live fire. This is a good method if you think you might need the irons with the red dot off the gun. For example if you're in an environment where your optic has fogged up or the glass is covered in mud. You either use QD or have a tool handy to remove the optic in an emergency. 2) You zero the irons through the red dot with live fire. Then you zero the red dot independent of the irons with live fire. This is if you are expecting in an emergency that your dot will just go dead but you'll still be able to see the irons through the optic. 3) You zero the red dot with live fire, then you move the BUIS to the red dot without actually firing the gun. This is a good way to get close but it may not be a true zero for your irons. In my experience it's closer if the irons are looking closer to the center of the dot due to parallax in the red dot. Your red dot is zeroed in the center of the optic, any position of the red dot outside the center is subject to parallax error. My favorite way to do it is #1. I like the idea of having a true iron sight zero with my optic off the gun. #1 and #2 are supposed to be the same but some optics have aberration in the glass that bends the image (people say the Aimpoint T2 has this issue a lot). So your iron sight zero can be very different looking through the optic vs. shooting without the optic on. I did #3. In theory, it is the vice versa from doing what many say to do, which is zero the irons, and then align the red dot to match it while cowitnessing. I zeroed the red dot, and adjusted the rear to where the irons match it 100%, mind you, I had to drift to the left on that one aswell, although I feel as if that one may be canted also. If not the case, how do you suspect the process is backwards from aligning the dot to the zeroed Irons, opposed to aligned the Irons to a zeroed Dot? Aimpoint Comp M2 here btw. Its another AR btw, but the fact I had to drift it far to the left made me wonder why both have leftward cants, and are 2 makes and models altogether. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 12:52:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the front sight is canted, it might already be slightly out of alignment. The barrel would have to move opposite of the cant so, in theory, it would center the tube more compared to where it originally was. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your gas tube can get out of alignment with the gas key with this method. If the front sight is canted, it might already be slightly out of alignment. The barrel would have to move opposite of the cant so, in theory, it would center the tube more compared to where it originally was. Also to @s4s4u Everyone with the non aligned barrel theory, "Zoom in" on this pic, and inside of the upper handguard cutouts, you will see that the gas tube does a leftward turn as it nears the FSB. (Should I be checking to make the the notch between the 2 feedramp cuts is 100% centered? May take it to my AR Armorer tomorrow depending on the responses to this pic, unless a canted front sight black ALSO will "CANT" the gas block.....¿?) https://pasteboard.co/JH7eWET.png |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 1:00:06 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also to @s4s4u Everyone with the non aligned barrel theory, "Zoom in" on this pic, and inside of the upper handguard cutouts, you will see that the gas tube does a leftward turn, especially when it nears the FSB. https://pasteboard.co/JH7eWET.png Well it is going to go where the FSB goes. Tweak the barrel to the right and it will be straight. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 1:17:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well it is going to go where the FSB goes. Tweak the barrel to the right and it will be straight. Wouldn't rotating the barrel as a quick fix risk affecting that affecting Headspace if the barrel indeed is proper and the components were put on wrong? Seems doing that "could" mis-align the feedramp, and also affect Headspace by bringing it in closer. How can one tell if it's the barrel, or if the components? Ive never built an upper, so I would like to know this info of Pros and Cons, being I'll know what to equaluate when asking my AR Smith his opinion when I take it to him tomorrow. I just don't want to put the idea that it's the barrel into his head, and them have feeding issues. Any good way to tell if it's bad barrel alignment by checking the feedramp positioning with the upper removed? Btw, this IS indeed a "Spike's ST15 LE" upper, but it came from AIM, it was 500+ bucks for the loaded upper yet I've always wondered if AIM has deals on stuff if possibly small Blend issues (like a canted issue) being it was a limited deal (and it was indeed a good deal 5 years ago before prices dropped so much) Also, after firing the first and only mag through it years ago, their were brass marks left on the centers of the ramp cuts, especially the left side, as I remember removing them easily with steel wool as I didn't like it and am OCD about things looking clean. The feedramp on this seems to have a textured finish on it, atleast in comparison to my M&P's M4 cut ramp that is shiny silver. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 1:46:18 AM EDT
[#30]
If the feed ramps are true now, rotating the barrel to the right will alter the alignment, but a couple of degrees isn't going to affect function. You can pop the rear take down pin and take a pic of the feed ramp and the extension so we can see what you have now. Headspace will not change, that is a relationship between the bolt and the chamber. I would contact the maker of the barrel first and see what they have to say. If they will not warranty it, your only choices are to fix it or trash it. If you want to keep the FSB you will have to tweak it or turn the barrel. Another option is to grind down the FSB to make it a lo-pro and free float it.
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Posted: 12/29/2020 3:06:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the feed ramps are true now, rotating the barrel to the right will alter the alignment, but a couple of degrees isn't going to affect function. You can pop the rear take down pin and take a pic of the feed ramp and the extension so we can see what you have now. Headspace will not change, that is a relationship between the bolt and the chamber. I would contact the maker of the barrel first and see what they have to say. If they will not warranty it, your only choices are to fix it or trash it. If you want to keep the FSB you will have to tweak it or turn the barrel. Another option is to grind down the FSB to make it a lo-pro and free float it. Dude! How did you know??? Please check these pics out!!! Unless I'm seeing things wrong, from the rear, the feedramp (and front sight post) look as if it was slightly twisted counterclockwise! You can use the left cut ramp not aligning with the machined groove and the right side going too far over the groove, plus not centered properly. How big of an issue is this? Is this a cheap fix via AR smith? Easier than re-pinning/drilling front sights? Or is this worse? Does this mean it was over tightened, not tightened enough, or just aligned improperly? What kind of work does this entail to be fix? Does it as simple as the index pin getting easily removed, this getting aligned, and the pin get slid right back back in? Or does this entail drilling a new hole, etc? This is a factory Spike's Upper! WTF! Used the flash, yet the only one single mag has been fired through this, I've done alot of hand cycling though. Hopefully nothing has been damaged, seeing some scaring in some pics where the finish has the golden appearance. Several Different angles and Close-Up pics showing what looks to be an "barrel assembly alignment issue", as suggested was the issue!!! WTF! https://pasteboard.co/JH84yO8.png https://pasteboard.co/JH88r2v.png https://pasteboard.co/JH87eDV.png https://pasteboard.co/JH83C0n.png https://pasteboard.co/JH80NzE.png https://pasteboard.co/JH85sXx.png https://pasteboard.co/JH86yY3.png |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 3:24:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude! How did you know??? Please check these pics out!!! Unless I'm seeing things wrong, from the rear, the feedramp (and front sight post) look as if twisted counterclockwise! You can use the left cut not aligning with the machined groove and the right side going too far over the right groove, plus, not aligned in the center! How big of an issue is this? As far as having a smith tackle? Easier than re-pinning front sights, as it's apparent that the barrel is either twisted too far. Does this mean it was over tightened, or not tightened enough? What kind of work does this entail to fix, and how is it done? Does a pin just get easily removed, this get adjusted, and the pin get slid back in, or does a bigger hole have to be drilled for an index pin, same as re-pinning sights? This is a factory Spike's Upper! WTF! [b]Different angles and zoomed in pics showing what looks likes an alignment issue, as suggested was the issue!!! WTF!/b] Indexing pins are not designed to be removed. Have you taken off the barrel nut to see if there is any possible play between the indexing pin and the cut out in the upper? If the FSP is canted left and the feed ramps are off to the right, then both of those are in line with each other. You could also take the barrel off and visually verify that the indexing pin is in the correct spot. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 3:43:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indexing pins are not designed to be removed. Have you taken off the barrel nut to see if there is any possible play between the indexing pin and the cut out in the upper? If the FSP is canted left and the feed ramps are off to the right, then both of those are in line with each other. You could also take the barrel off and visually verify that the indexing pin is in the correct spot. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Dude! How did you know??? Please check these pics out!!! Unless I'm seeing things wrong, from the rear, the feedramp (and front sight post) look as if twisted counterclockwise! You can use the left cut not aligning with the machined groove and the right side going too far over the right groove, plus, not aligned in the center! How big of an issue is this? As far as having a smith tackle? Easier than re-pinning front sights, as it's apparent that the barrel is either twisted too far. Does this mean it was over tightened, or not tightened enough? What kind of work does this entail to fix, and how is it done? Does a pin just get easily removed, this get adjusted, and the pin get slid back in, or does a bigger hole have to be drilled for an index pin, same as re-pinning sights? This is a factory Spike's Upper! WTF! [b]Different angles and zoomed in pics showing what looks likes an alignment issue, as suggested was the issue!!! WTF!/b] Indexing pins are not designed to be removed. Have you taken off the barrel nut to see if there is any possible play between the indexing pin and the cut out in the upper? If the FSP is canted left and the feed ramps are off to the right, then both of those are in line with each other. You could also take the barrel off and visually verify that the indexing pin is in the correct spot. I'm a novice when it comes to working on uppers. Yes, the positioning would likely entail it to be it twisted a tad, u less coincidental. Does that entail anything else to you? I'm a novice to where I'm not sure what all else is involved, I know about the barrel nut ofcourse, but in the dark when it comes to the Index pin and getting to it with this delta Ring on. Besides removing the handguards from the upper, that's as far as I've ever went on an upper, only played with lowers honestly. The Delta Ring blocks those other areas, I go to a local AR smith for anything additional. Repair/cost wise, would this be something you would refer me to the factory to do, even if a long wait time, or is it something a good AR smith could easily do pretty cheap and it be good as new afterward? Wondering if that little drift mentioned in some posts above would do the trick. Any videos online of it? I'll be calling Spike's tomorrow though, although if an easy fix of loosening and re-twisting the barrel like some advised to take up that extra space (if their is any space) My AR Smith was a USMC Armorer and it's only a 15 min drive. Although being both parts are off by the same amount, it's as if the entire barrel assembly is twisted a tad. Could it have twisted by be removing a flash hider before? Main thing is the Delta Ring being in the way, not sure how to get that out of the way. The gas tube is snug in between the 2 of the top teeth. I've yet to research this, waiting until later today to hear back here and also talk to my smith. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 7:34:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Rotating the barrel clockwise will fix the sight and feedramp alignment. I bet the barrel is good, just rotated in the upper. Do as I said and all will be well. Don’t freak, just do it. A 5 minute job for your gunsmith.
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Posted: 12/29/2020 8:19:37 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rotating the barrel clockwise will fix the sight and feedramp alignment. I bet the barrel is good, just rotated in the upper. Do as I said and all will be well. Don’t freak, just do it. A 5 minute job for your gunsmith. So ask my smith if he will loosen the barrel nut, and if their is any room to rotate the barrel clockwise (when from the rear,) to use up any space on the given side of the index? Or to remove it and try to index it differently? The index is stationary, like the lower tab on a retainer plate as a rough example, correct? Also, was it you who said to hold onto the upper or reaction rod while tightening? Or to hold the barrel in the spot you want it to stay while tightening? I DID remove the handguard since the last post, and noticed that the front handguard retainer is offset to the right of the FSP, so maybe it is indeed a combo of a slightly canted FSP, but also a slightly canted barrel install also...¿ If so, the trade-off for a slightly canted handguard may not be as bad. If only it didn't have the triangle style retainer, it could twist more if the rounded type. If you saw the pics, I would think the left ramp should line up with the machined areas, rather than everything twisted over toward the right, and the out edge of the right ramp overlapping it's machined edge. Likely will feed smoother aswell if that aligns. Btw, the gas tube is a VERY snug fit between the 2 upper teeth of the gear shaped part inside of the Delta Ring (which I think is the Barrel nut, but I may way off). Not sure how to get any play there. How is the barrel loosened with the Delta Ring on by chance? It seems to cover the nut. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 8:29:52 AM EDT
[#36]
Link to my instructions above. The third post in this thread.
This came from Mike at Nodak. Nodak forges, machines and distributes their own upper receivers. I don’t think Mike would have suggested a course of action which would likely cause damage to an upper. He has to warrant the ones he sells. I think your barrel is good. There’s just some clearance between the barrel extension pin and the slot in the upper. Rotate the barrel clockwise and you’ll likely be good. Literally a 5 minute job for your gunsmith. If it doesn’t work out, contact Spikes. Nothing your smith can do would void any warranty. If the machining is fucked up, then the machining is fucked up and on Spikes, not your smith. Eta: don’t remove the barrel, just loosen the barrel nut and then tighten it while supporting the barrel, not the upper. As the nut is tightened, the upper will rotate slightly with the barrel nut, this then causes the extension pin to rest against the opposite side of the receiver slot. Essentially you are assembling it in an opposite way than Spikes (they supported the upper, you will support the barrel) which will cause the extension pin to rest on the opposite side of the upper slot, causing the barrel to be rotated clockwise. Once loose, twist the barrel back and forth to see how much movement you have. Then twist it clockwise and look at the feed ramps to see how much it moved and where you’ll end up once tight. Eta#2: the barrel wrench will push the delta ring against the delta ring spring, moving it out of the way and allowing the wrench to mate with the nut. If your gas tube is already in a bind, fixing the alignment will help fix it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 11:28:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryNot the first time I have seen this. Either the indexing pin is located out of spec, or the notch in the upper is, or both. If there is sufficient play in the notch you may be able to correct it as outlined previously, by simply clamping the barrel and letting the nut rotate the upper as tightened. If the pin and notch are tight you will have to remove material from either the pin or the notch, or both. You can shim with strips of soda or beer can, but once the nut is tightened it is unlikely to move. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 11:28:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did #3. In theory, it is the vice versa from doing what many say to do, which is zero the irons, and then align the red dot to match it while cowitnessing. I zeroed the red dot, and adjusted the rear to where the irons match it 100%, mind you, I had to drift to the left on that one aswell, although I feel as if that one may be canted also. If not the case, how do you suspect the process is backwards from aligning the dot to the zeroed Irons, opposed to aligned the Irons to a zeroed Dot? Aimpoint Comp M2 here btw. Its another AR btw, but the fact I had to drift it far to the left made me wonder why both have leftward cants, and are 2 makes and models altogether. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 11:38:25 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not the first time I have seen this. Either the indexing pin is located out of spec, or the notch in the upper is, or both. If there is sufficient play in the notch you may be able to correct it as outlined previously, by simply clamping the barrel and letting the nut rotate the upper as tightened. If the pin and notch are tight you will have to remove material from either the pin or the notch, or both. You can shim with strips of soda or beer can, but once the nut is tightened it is unlikely to move. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 11:59:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Pull the barrel nut, check the index pin to be sure it's not fucked. Check the index pin slot in upper receiver. Likely just slop in the slot allowing the barrel assembly to rotate while torque is applied. If slop is excessive in the slot, shim it on the down sweep side.
15 minutes and a few tools most likely will remedy things. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 12:03:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After seeing the pics I agree. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not the first time I have seen this. Either the indexing pin is located out of spec, or the notch in the upper is, or both. If there is sufficient play in the notch you may be able to correct it as outlined previously, by simply clamping the barrel and letting the nut rotate the upper as tightened. If the pin and notch are tight you will have to remove material from either the pin or the notch, or both. You can shim with strips of soda or beer can, but once the nut is tightened it is unlikely to move. Gotta wonder if the guy who assembled it was doing auto stereo installs the day before. Hopefully 5 minutes of his ‘smith’s time can sort it out. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 6:23:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Link to my instructions above. The third post in this thread. This came from Mike at Nodak. Nodak forges, machines and distributes their own upper receivers. I don’t think Mike would have suggested a course of action which would likely cause damage to an upper. He has to warrant the ones he sells. I think your barrel is good. There’s just some clearance between the barrel extension pin and the slot in the upper. Rotate the barrel clockwise and you’ll likely be good. Literally a 5 minute job for your gunsmith. If it doesn’t work out, contact Spikes. Nothing your smith can do would void any warranty. If the machining is fucked up, then the machining is fucked up and on Spikes, not your smith. Eta: don’t remove the barrel, just loosen the barrel nut and then tighten it while supporting the barrel, not the upper. As the nut is tightened, the upper will rotate slightly with the barrel nut, this then causes the extension pin to rest against the opposite side of the receiver slot. Essentially you are assembling it in an opposite way than Spikes (they supported the upper, you will support the barrel) which will cause the extension pin to rest on the opposite side of the upper slot, causing the barrel to be rotated clockwise. Once loose, twist the barrel back and forth to see how much movement you have. Then twist it clockwise and look at the feed ramps to see how much it moved and where you’ll end up once tight. Eta#2: the barrel wrench will push the delta ring against the delta ring spring, moving it out of the way and allowing the wrench to mate with the nut. If your gas tube is already in a bind, fixing the alignment will help fix it. So is the gas tube NOT supposed to sit snug in between the top 2 teeth on the gear shaped barrel nut? Should it sit above it and have clearence? Also, how is it moved out of the way when unscrewing? It literally sits flat in between the 2 top teeth. Do I bend it upward, being its staked? |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 6:27:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is the gas tube NOT supposed to sit snug in between the top 2 teeth on the gear shaped barrel nut? Should it sit above it and have clearence? Also, how is it moved out of the way when unscrewing? It literally sits flat in between the 2 top teeth. Do I bend it upward, being its staked? You will need to drive out the pin holding the gas tube in the FSB and slide the gas tube into the receiver. Have you contacted the maker to see if they will handle it? It is obviously a QC issue. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 6:29:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is the gas tube NOT supposed to sit snug in between the top 2 teeth on the gear shaped barrel nut? Should it sit above it and have clearence? Also, how is it moved out of the way when unscrewing? It literally sits flat in between the 2 top teeth. Do I bend it upward, being its staked? Find a smith OP. Seriously. |
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Posted: 12/29/2020 7:00:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Find a smith OP. Seriously. Strongly seconded... 
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Posted: 12/29/2020 7:38:22 PM EDT
[#46]
hard to tell from pics but doesnt look that bad to me. how does the sight post look?
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Posted: 12/29/2020 7:59:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hard to tell from pics but doesnt look that bad to me. how does the sight post look? Those pics are earlier in the thread. It is bad enough. |
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Posted: 1/10/2021 1:48:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Call them - the worst they can do is say no :) (407) 928-2666 I'be be surprised if they did, though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've had it atleast 5 years, only one mag fired through it. Would that affect them helping? This Spike's upper was nearly 600 bucks like 5 years ago, one reason I'm pissed that the FSB is canted. Call them - the worst they can do is say no :) (407) 928-2666 I'be be surprised if they did, though. **Update** Spikes is doing right by me. Their lifetime warranty is worth the extra coin forsure. Thanks for your confidence in posting again, as it pushed me to call. It initially took awhile as the guy in charge of that department was gone for New Years, the day he got back, he was on it fast! So I take back the part about my emails not being returned. Apparently some recent ones had an index notch in the upper that was out of spec causing the same/or similar issue (before leaving the factory) awhile back, so likely the same issue even though this one is older. They caught it in time but seems my older one had that issue or a similar one, may be the reason AIM had them for sale. I've always wondered is AIM gets "slightly Blem/out of spec" items and if that's why it's random offerings at times and cheaper. Even if not, I feel confident with the factory having it being they can replace anything faulty and not Jerry Rig it. Terrific Customer Service, the return support guys job title is even called "Crisis Management" so they take stuff like this very seriously, and I had a free shipping return label and RMA sent the same day after talking to John. Turn around time is 1-2 days apparently for repairs, and at a time like this, that is incredible! I highly recommend Spike's now not only due to their products but due to their Customer Service and them actually honoring the lifetime warranty, and not trying to weasel their way out of it like so many other companies attempt. I just wish AK distributors/stateside manufacturers would be this good about Canted Sights, although this had a canted feedramp also which entails a canted barrel, so that explains why Lancers would make the rounds jam up when test hand cycling a mag loaded to even 28-29rds. I first assumed it was the lancer but likely the left feedramp being too far over, or both sides. I wondered why it hated Lancers while everyone else swears by them working flawlessly. They must have tighter specs than Pmags also. If YOU work for them, or if this is John, thumbs up to you! |
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Posted: 1/10/2021 2:46:40 AM EDT
[#49]
You're too nice. That's really bad QC.
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Posted: 1/10/2021 3:02:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're too nice. That's really bad QC. Due to have owning AKs in the past and EVERY single one having canted front sights, I think I'm desensitized to it, while others see a canted AR FSP as terrible. (Which it may be, as It may not be the "nature of the beast" like with AKs) Also, they are gonna switch the triangle front handguard retainer to a round one as I wanted, so that's a plus, will be able to fit the desired handguard then. Desensitized being on an AK forum, you'll get jumped for even complaining about it UNLESS you cannot zero it, even if the post has to touch the outer bullhorns to be zeroed the factories consider that "within spec" and you cannot return for repair unless it absolutely cannot be zeroed, even from "Arsenal". 90% of the time you notice the gas block and Rear Sight block to be canted also, so either the barrels are often canted when installed on AKs, or they purposely Cant them to match the position of the rear sight housing (a popular theory which many say straightening the FSP out can throw off alignment through the rear when viewing being normally it's about the rear sight fitment in the trunnion, it just doesn't make sense when it's a milled AK as the receiver and trunnion are all one piece). It apparently happens when factories rivet one side at a time rather than doing one, flipping over, doing that side, repeat etc etc., kind of like screwing screws or bolts into something one side at a time, rather than going back and forth. Causes lop sided issues. Although kind of glad the AR only had a mag through it, being with the feedlips canted, not sure if that was messing with the clearence of the bolt lugs or not....¿ If not aligned properly, could it have worn on the edges of the bolt? Forgot to check it, but I made a note for them to do so being I did a ton of hand cycling and bolt drops when testing mags, different bolt catches, Charging handles, etc. The bolt seems to lock a little rougher when locking in, so was either due to it not being broken on, or light due to binding/ clearence of the bolt if that's indeed an issue, depending how much extra space their is for the lugs to clear the barrel extension grooves. |
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