

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:10:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zhukov]
Since this thread covers more than one manufacturer, I won't be adding a poll here. Feel free to post your personal experiences with any ammo that fits the overall description below.
This is a catch-all post for discussion of heavy (68gr+) OTM ammo such as: * Hornady 75gr OTM * HSM 75gr OTM * 77gr loads such as Mk262 * Wolf 75gr * Prvi 75gr * etc. THIS IS A REVIEW THREAD, NOT A DISCUSSION THREAD. PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS CONFINED TO YOUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS AMMO. The type of information I'm looking for is something along the following: * Ammunition used * Muzzle velocity (if you have it) * Your rifle (barrel length/twist rate) * Bullet accuracy * Does the bullet fragment (water tests or references to ballistic gelatin data) * Reliability problems * Anything else that's useful to know |
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<Please re-read the original post. Ammunition reviews ONLY, not questions/general discussions - Z>
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(repost)
HSM 5.56 Ammo Comparison There is now a third, commercially available 5.56mm cartridge being loaded to NATO pressures using a “heavy” OTM bullet on the market; the other two being Hornady’s 75 grain 5.56 TAP load and the Black Hills 77 grain MK262 load. HSM (The Hunting Shack) has begun loading Hornady’s 75 grain OTM bullet with cannelure (the T1C as it has come to be referred to here at AR15.com) to NATO pressures. The round is loaded using ball powder and has crimped and sealed primer pockets. It also has a heavy collet crimped case neck and an asphalt sealant is used at the case neck. The load is designated as the 5.56-17T. HSM is also producing another load using Hornady’s T1C bullet, designated as the 223-17T. This load also uses ball powder but is loaded to a velocity in between their NATO pressure load and the SAAMI pressure Hornady TAP FPD load. The particular lot of this load that I received has a lighter collet crimp than the 5.56-17T load and does not use the asphalt sealant at the case neck. Nor does it have crimped or sealed primer pockets. It has been stated that the primer pockets will be crimped and sealed on future loadings. asphalt sealant ![]() cannelures ![]() case neck crimps ![]() ![]() primer pockets ![]() ![]() ![]() Since the 5.56-17T load is considered to be an alternative round for Hornady’s 5.56 TAP, I decided to do an accuracy and chronograph comparison between the two. While I was at it, I also included the 223-17T load in the comparison as well. Chronographing was done using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software. Three different Colt barrels were used in chronographing: a 14.5” M4, a 16” light-weight profile and a 20” government profile. barrels ![]() The chronograph data. ![]() Accuracy testing of the new rounds will begin shortly and the results posted ASAP. Atmospheric conditions Temperature: 74 degrees F Humidity: 69% Barometric pressure: 30.09 Elevation: 950 feet above sea level Skies: overcast, Jupiter rising |
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All hail Jeanne Assam!
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(repost)
HSM 5.56-17T Accuracy Testing As explained previously in this thread, normally when I evaluate the accuracy of a particular load I use one of my stainless steel Krieger barrels as the test vehicle. However, since this test involves the NATO pressure 5.56-17T load I did not want to risk pressure issues by firing a NATO pressure load in a match chambered, tightly rifled barrel. Therefore, I chose one of my Colt 20” HBARs to use as the test vehicle. This barrel is free-floated and even though it has a NATO chamber and chrome lining, it is capable of shooting 10-shot groups from 100 yards that hover right around 1.00”. ![]() Testing of the HSM 5.56-17T load was conducted following my usual method of accuracy evaluation. Three 10-shot groups were fired at 100 yards from a bench-rest. All ten shots in each group were included in the measurements. Prior to firing the test rounds, I fired a 10-shot group from 100 yards using one of my standard hand-loads; a Sierra 55 grain BlitzKing with a muzzle velocity of approximately 3000 fps. This group measured 1.06”. This is typical of the accuracy this barrel is capable of producing. I have fired a total of five control loads from this barrel throughout the testing for this thread. Those groups measured 1.05”, 1.06”, 1.10”, 1.00” and 1.06”. I believe this demonstrates the capabilities of this barrel rather well. Here is a pic of the group fired using the control load. ![]() The three 10-shot groups of the 5.56-17T load fired from 100 yards and used for analysis measured, in order of firing: 1.81” 1.76” 2.04”. These three groups were over-layed on each other using the RSI Shooting Lab software program to form a 30-round composite group. The mean radius (explained here) of this composite group measured 0.58”. In an effort to validate these results and give the 5.56-17T load ample opportunity to prove itself, I fired two additional 10-shot groups from 100 yards that measured 1.67” and 2.11”. All five of the 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other to form a 50-round composite group. The mean radius for this 50-round composite group measured 0.57”. This is a pic of the smallest group from the 5.56-17T load. ![]() For comparison, the 30-round composite group created from three 10-shot groups of Hornady’s 5.56 TAP ammunition fired from the same Colt HBAR had a mean radius 0.46”. Here are the composite groups side-by-side. ![]() To give you an additional perspective, the mean radius of a 30-round composite group of IMI M193 fired from the same Colt barrel was 0.72”. ![]() I’ll be posting the results of the accuracy testing of the 223-17T load soon. Molon |
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All hail Jeanne Assam!
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All credit review for this post belongs to MOLON. I merely pasted his review in this post with his permission - Z.
Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD For those interested in Hornady's 75 grain TAP loads, here are the results of a side by side chronograph test of Hornady’s 75 grain 5.56 TAP round (NATO pressure) and their SAAMI pressure 75 grain TAP FPD (For Personal Defense) round. The TAP FPD comes in a “black box” and uses “black nickel” plated cases. The TAP 5.56 comes in a “red box” and has brass cases with crimped primers and uses the new “T2” 75 grain bullet. Both bullets have a cannelure and both rounds have a crimped case neck. The ammunition. ![]() ![]() The cartridges. ![]() The headstamps. Note the 5.56 round has a crimped in primer. ![]() The 5.56 TAP uses ball powder... ![]() ...and the TAP FPD uses a short cut extruded powder. ![]() The bullet on the left is a virgin 75 grain BTHP sold as a reloading component. The bullet in the center is pulled from a TAP FPD round and the bullet on the right is the new “T2” bullet pulled from a round of the 5.56 TAP. ![]() The tests were conducted using an Oehler 35P chronograph with "proof screen" technology. All strings of fire for this report consisted of 10 rounds each unless otherwise noted. All of the velocities listed in this report are MUZZLE velocities and were calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software. The ballistic coefficients used for this study are estimates extrapolated from Hornady’s exterior ballistics tables for these two loads. If anyone has more precise ballistic coefficients for these loads please feel free to post them. The three different barrels used in testing were: A Colt 14.5” M4 barrel A Colt 16” light weight profile barrel A Colt 20” government profile barrel All of the barrels used are chrome lined, NATO chambered and have 1:7” twists. ![]() Here is a table showing the muzzle velocities of each load from each of the three different barrels, along with a column showing the difference in velocities between the two loads. ![]() If you read the fine-print in the above table you'll notice that the results for the 20” barrel were obtained using 20-shot strings of fire. This was part of a test to determine the validity of using 10-shot strings of fire when chronographing. I fired a 10-shot string of each load using the 20” barrel and then a 20-shot string of each load and compared the results. For the TAP FPD the difference in the average velocity between the 10 and 20 shot strings was ONE foot per second and the standard deviations were the same! With the 5.56 TAP the difference in average velocities between the 10 and 20 shot strings was only five fps and the standard deviations only varied by one foot per second. I think this shows quite nicely the validity of using 10-shot strings for chronographing. ![]() The Hornady 75 grain bullets are considered to have a fragmentation threshold of 2200 fps +/- 50 fps. Based on the conservative figure of 2250 fps the table below shows the range (in yards) at which fragmentation can be expected to occur for the two loads being tested. It also shows the gain (in yards) before reaching the fragmentation threshold for the 5.56 TAP load. ![]() On my next trip to the range I will be conducting an accuracy comparison between these two loads. I’ll post those results as soon as they are available. For additional comparison, I chronographed a few other factory loads “of interest.” Here are the results. ![]() Lastly, for all the O.C.D. types, here are the atmospheric conditions during testing: Temperature- 84 degrees F Humidity - 53% Barometric pressure – 30.02 Elevation- 960 feet above sea level Winds – variable Skies – partly cloudy, Jupiter aligned with Mars Here is the revised fragmentation range table using the ballisitic coefficient of .352 for both the "T1" and "T2" bullets. The fragmentation threshold of 2,250 fps is used with my original muzzle velocities along with Standard Atmospheric Conditions.* ![]() *Stand Atmospheric Conditions for ballistics. Altitude: Sea level Barometric pressure: 29.53 inches Hg Temperature: 59 degrees F Relative humidity: 78 percent Accuracy Results - part 1 Normally when attempting to determine the accuracy (technically the precision) of a particular load, I use one of my stainless steel Krieger barrels for testing. However, since part of this test involves the 5.56 TAP round loaded to NATO pressures, I was just not willing to risk pressure issues from firing a NATO pressure load through one of my match chambered, tightly rifled Krieger barrels. I could have used a Krieger barrel for the SAMMI pressure 75 TAP FPD load and a different barrel for the 5.56 TAP load, but I felt this would have given an unfair advantage to the TAP FPD. Therefore I decided to test both loads from a NATO chambered barrel. What I was most interested in gleaning from this test was the relative accuracy of the two loads compared to each other anyway. It has been my experience that NATO pressure loads tend not to shoot as accurately as loads that are downloaded by 150 to 200 fps (depending on the bullet weight.) I have a 20” Colt HBAR with a 1:7” twist that shoots relatively well for a factory barrel that is chrome lined and NATO chambered. The barrel is free floated and is capable of shooting 10-shot groups from 100 yards that hover right around one inch. ![]() All shooting for this test was done at 100 yards from a benchrest with the rifle resting on front and rear bags. (Remember, I’m trying to test the accuracy of the ammunition and not particularly my shooting skills.) As a control for this test, before firing the TAP ammunition, I obtained three 10-shot groups using Sierra 77 grain MatchKings. (In an effort to reduce the human error involved in this test, I actually fired four 10-shot groups of each load and used the best three for analysis.) The three 10-shot groups using the Sierra 77 grain MatchKings measured: 1.05” 1.07” 1.10”. Here is a snapshot of one of the 77 SMK groups. ![]() Now here’s the good part. I obtained three 10-shot groups of the Hornday 75 grain TAP FPD load and the three groups measured: 1.08” 1.15” 1.18”. Here is a snapshot of one of the 75 TAP FPD loads. ![]() Next I overlayed the three 10-shot groups from each load on each other using the RSI Shooting Lab software program and obtained 30-round composite targets for each load. The mean radius of the 77 SMK control load measured 0.32” and the mean radius for the 75 TAP FPD load measured 0.37”! I consider this to be excellent accuracy for a factory load, especially from a chrome lined, NATO chambered barrel. (See this thread for an explanation of the “mean radius.”) Here are the 30-round composite targets for comparison. ![]() Tomorrow I will be testing the 5.56 TAP load and I’ll post the results as soon as I get a chance. Accuracy Results – part 2 Proceeding in the same manner as described in part 1, I conducted an accuracy evaluation of the 5.56 TAP load. Remember, all groups fired consisted of 10 shots each and were fired from 100 yards from a bench rest. For this portion of the test, I fired a 10-shot group using the control load with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing that measured exactly 1.00”. This is the smallest group obtained with the control load, with the largest being 1.10”. This group along with the three groups fired in part 1 of this test gives us four 10-shot groups of the control load fired from 100 yards that have an extreme variance of only 1/10th of an inch! (1.00”, 1.05”, 1.07”, 1.10”) I think this gives a pretty good indication of the capabilities/limitations of the barrel being used for testing and did not think that any more control groups were necessary. Here’s a snapshot of the control load. ![]() Now for the really good part. I obtained three 10-shot groups of the 5.56 TAP load that measured: 1.16” 1.38” 1.45”. For comparison the three 10-shot groups of the TAP FPD load from part 1 of the test measured: 1.08” 1.15” 1.18”. Here is a snapshot of the smallest 5.56 TAP group. ![]() I compiled a 30-round composite target from the 5.56 TAP groups and measured the composite mean radius. The mean radius for the 5.56 TAP load was 0.46" while the mean radius for the TAP FPD load was 0.37". While the 5.56 TAP load is clearly not quite as accurate as the TAP FPD load (and we are only talking about a difference of 0.37” from the smallest FPD group to the largest 5.56 group at 100 yards in this test), I think the 5.56 load shows excellent accuracy for a NATO pressure load. As I stated earlier, it has been my experience that NATO pressure loads do not shoot nearly as accurately as loads that run 150-200 fps slower. Here are the 30-round composite targets for comparison. ![]() For my next trip to the range I am thinking of conducting a "stability test" for the TAP loads. Stability Test – final results After testing the TAP loads at 50 yards for signs of instability I continued the testing from 100 yards. As stated in the preliminary results post, this test uses a Colt 16” HBAR with a 1:9” twist and is chrome lined and NATO chambered. Before getting to the results I’d like to mention a couple of points as suggested by wyv3rn. First of all, not all 1:9” twist barrels are exactly one turn in nine inches. Some might be slightly faster, such as a 1:8.8” twist and some might be slightly slower, such as a 1:9.2” twist. The point being that your 1:9” twist barrel might be a little different than mine and therefore your stability results may also differ from mine. Secondly, rotational stability is influenced by ambient temperature. A round that is stable on a nice sunny summer day might not be so in the middle of winter. On to the test results. Before firing the TAP rounds, I obtained a 10-shot control group using Sierra 52 grain MatchKing bullets. The group measured 1.01” and had a mean radius of 0.36”. This group is a fine example of the accuracy this barrel is capable of as I have duplicated these results numerous times in the past with this barrel. Here is a pic of the control group. ![]() First up for the TAP loads was the TAP FPD load. You may recall this load showed excellent accuracy when fired from a 1:7” twist barrel. Using the Colt 16” barrel with the 1:9” twist I obtained three 10-shot groups from 100 yards that measured: 1.28” 1.65” 1.76”. For comparison the three 10-shot groups of the TAP FPD load fired from the 1:7” twist barrel measured: 1.08” 1.15” 1.18”. Using my usual procedure of overlaying three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab software I obtained a 30-round composite target of the rounds fired from the 1:9” twist barrel. The mean radius for this target was 0.48”. By comparison, the mean radius of the 30-round composite target for the TAP FPD load fired from the 1:7” twist barrel was only 0.37”. This shows a definite increase in group size for the rounds fired from the 1:9" twist barrel. ![]() Next, following the same procedures, I obtained three 10-shot groups of the 5.56 TAP load through the 1:9” twist barrel that measured: 1.44” 1.90” 2.06”. For comparison the three 10-shot groups obtained from the 1:7” twist barrel measured: 1.16” 1.38” 1.45”. As before, 30-round composite targets were compiled to compare the mean radii. The mean radius from the 1:9” twist barrel measured 0.54” while the mean radius from the 1:7” twist barrel measured 0.46”. Again we see an increase in group size for the rounds fired from the 1:9” twist barrel. (Keep in mind that the control group from the 1:9” twist barrel was right on par with the control groups from the 1:7” twist barrel.) ![]() All the bullet holes from both TAP loads were typically rounded bullet holes. There was no sign of key-holing whatsoever. However, with both the TAP FPD and the 5.56 TAP we are seeing an obvious increase in group size when fired from the 1:9” twist barrel (although in practical terms the increase in group size is less than one inch from the smallest TAP FPD group fired from the 1:7" twist barrel to the largest 5.56 TAP group fired from the 1:9" barrel at 100 yards.) Obviously, test results from just one barrel with a 1:9” twist don’t prove anything and it could be that my barrel just doesn’t like the 75 grain bullets. However, I think the results suggest that the TAP rounds were only marginally stabilized in the 1:9” twist barrel under the ambient conditions and that is the reason for the decrease in accuracy compared to the 1:7” twist barrel. Feel free to post your conclusions. Atmospheric conditions: Temperature: 76 degrees F Relative humidity: 39% Barometer: 30.19 Elevation: 960 feet above sea level |
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Recent ballistic gelatin testing of popular rounds:
223 Privi Partizan 75 gr OTM, velocity=2468 fps from a 16" barrel: Penetration in bare gel Neck Length Max temporary cavity Recovered Diameter Recovered Length Recovered Weight %fragmnentation 5.56 mm Hornady 75 gr T2 TAP OTM, velocity=2689 fps from a 16" barrel: Penetration in bare gel Neck Length Max temporary cavity Recovered Diameter Recovered Length Recovered Weight %fragmnentation 5.56 mm BH 77 gr Mk262 Mod1 OTM (SMK), vel=2700 fps from a 16" barrel Penetration in bare gel Neck Length Max temporary cavity Recovered Diameter Recovered Length Recovered Weight %fragmnentation DocGKR's comments: "The Hornady 75 gr was the most impressive loading in bare gel––evenmore so than the numbers illustrate and it was extremely consistent..." |
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Daddy loves you. Now go away.
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General Zhukov-
I think you will find that the Cor-Bon 77-gr SMK 5.56mm load at 2800 fps (thru a 20" 1/9 barrel) compares favorably in spec terms to the MK262 and should be added to your short list of known 5.56mm 77-gr SMK loads. Surprisingly, it was only $15.95 a box/20 at Ammo to Go as of earlier this week and they still had some in stock. Cor-Bon also offers a 69-gr SMK load that is 3000 fps thru the same 20" 1/9 barrel and is also considered a 5.56mm loading. I bought a bunch of this stuff earlier this week for only $14.95/20 from the same source (ATG) and this once should also be added to your "Heavy OTM" list. Respectfully, capt.john/phoenix27 |
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Molon,
In reference to your assertion that a 1-9" not stabilizing the Prvi 75 Gr OTM. This is NOT scientific, and they are only 3 shot groups. They were shot with a Remington SPS tactical, 20" barrel 1-9" twist: <a href="http://s476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/fdkay/?action=view¤t=1-21-200930623PM.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/fdkay/1-21-200930623PM.jpg" border="0" alt="grp 2"></a> <a href="http://s476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/fdkay/?action=view¤t=1-21-200930712PM.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/fdkay/1-21-200930712PM.jpg" border="0" alt="grp 1"></a> They do appear to be stabilized. Of course individual barrels are unique. This rifle does NOT like the 68 grain Black Hills match load. |
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I have a 16" Colt barrel with a 1:9" twist that averages 1.6" for 10-shot groups of 75 grain OTM loads at 100 yards. My only point is that a 1:9" twist is theoretically not appropriate for the 75 grain OTM match loads and if you haven't thoroughly evaluated your 1:9" barrel with these loads, you may find out at the worst moment that you really should have used a tighter twist.
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Member of the General Population
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Originally Posted By Molon:
I have a 16" Colt barrel with a 1:9" twist that averages 1.6" for 10-shot groups of 75 grain OTM loads at 100 yards. My only point is that a 1:9" twist is theoretically not appropriate for the 75 grain OTM match loads and if you haven't thoroughly evaluated your 1:9" barrel with these loads, you may find out at the worst moment that you really should have used a tighter twist. Concur. Of course you should do that with any load. When the wind isn't blowing 25miles an hour down here, I'll get to the range some more. It was a handload with mixed range brass, 24.5 grains of varget and Winchester primers. |
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This is WEALTH of information!
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I would like to add some info about the Silver State Armory 77gr OTM ammo. It appears that they are now using a Sierra Matchking 77gr with a cannelure. I just purchased 320 rounds this week. The brass used is Lake City brass manufactured this year with the Nato headstamp. The markings on the brass are LC 09 and Nato headstamp. I shot a box of twenty today from 100 and 200 yards. My setup is as follows:
16" ADCO Chrome-lined barrel with A2 FH. LaRue 11.0" Handguard CMT Upper with Denny's Guns Supper Duty bolt carrier group Bushmaster Lower with Jewel Trigger and MIAD grip MagPul CTR Stock with 9MM buffer. Aimpoint CompM3 in a LaRue Mount Harris Bipod I shot a five shot group at 100 yard and a 10 round group at 200 yards. Both groups were shot laying prone off of the bipod with the rear stock supported by my shoulder and my left hand. All rounds fed and ejected with zero problems. 5 shot group at 100 yards was 1" and the 10 shot group at 200 yards was just under 2". Muzzle velocities were not measured but must have be very close to SSA's advertised 2690 fps from a 16" barrel. Based on my iPhone ballistics calculator using SSA's advertised velocities, the impact points at 100 yard and 200 yards were as predicted. This is a very accurate, powerful round. |
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Here are some recent MVs from a lot of Prvi 75gr OTM purchased in late May 2009:
66deg, 66% humidity, 900ft ASL, using a CED M2 chronograph at 10' from the muzzle ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– 14.5" Sabre Defence 1:7: 2499 2492 2488 2474 2487 2482 2450 2457 2477 2440 AVG: 2475 SD: 18.5 ES: 59 ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– 12.5" Global Tactical Operator 1:7: 2392 2381 2427 2389 2408 2402 2388 2405 2418 2406 AVG: 2402 SD: 13.6 ES: 46 ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– 11.5" BCM 4150CMV C/L 1:7: 2350 2321 2330 2329 2365 2299 2334 2329 2342 2332 AVG: 2333 SD: 16.5 ES: 66 ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– This is pretty much on par with Molon's latest Prvi results, accounting for the cooler temps and normal lot variations. |
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Scepticism is an exercise, not a life; it is a discipline fit to purify the mind of prejudice and render it all the more apt, when the time comes, to believe and to act wisely. -- George Santayana
Never mistake a clear view for a short distance. |
<This is a review thread - please keep on topic - Z>
[ETA - Files work for me. IM Molon with any problems] |
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<This is a review thread - please keep on topic - Z>
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"Any moron can obtain weapons, but what he does with these weapons is the factor which will determine the sucess or failure of a particular operation" -William Powell
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<This is a review thread - please keep on topic - Z>
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I shot a deer last year with red box hornady 75 grain tap, not the .556 version. The shot was right at 100 yards and it was a quartering towards shot. The shot entered behind the front shoulder and did not strike any bone upon entry. The projectile traveled just in front of the diaphragm until just before it exited. It punctured the diaphragm, struck one rib on the way out and exited. The deer ran about 20 yards and laid down where it was dispatched with a second shot to the head, which curiously did not exit. Upon butchering the animal there was a small entrance wound as one would expect with about a two inch hole for the exit wound. I did not find any bullet fragments inside, but I was not extremely careful while checking for them either. The size of the exit leads me to believe that some fragmentation occurred, but not violent extensive fragmentation. This was from an 18" barrel.
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"Ya'll can go to hell, I'm going to Texas"
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<This is a review thread. Please restrict posts to actual reviews only. -Z>
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GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE.... US NAVY SEALS KILL PEOPLE!
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<This is a REVIEW thread only. Please start another thread to discuss other topics - Z>
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I shoot the PRVI 75 out of a 1:8 SS 24" AR and the accuracy is as good as the Hornady TAP (silver case) that I purchased. I can shoot the PRVI cheaper and just as accurate so I'm sticking w/ it. It is true match ammo which I was very skeptical to say the least before trying it.
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<This is a REVIEW thread only. Please start another thread to discuss other topics - Z>
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<This is a REVIEW thread only. Please start another thread to discuss other topics - Z>
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Member of the General Population
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<This is a REVIEW thread only. Please start another thread to discuss other topics - Z>
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Member of the General Population
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Originally Posted By DrBackJack: <This is a REVIEW thread only. Please start another thread to discuss other topics - Z> What happen to my review? Cheers for being strict on people who are off topic, but why remove my review? <Because you didn't provide what I would call a review. If you have any questions, IM me. - Z> |
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I had similar results with the 75 TAP out of a 20" 1/9 Bushmaster barrel.
Nice clean round holes but only so, so accuracy. At close range it would do fine I'm sure. Thanks for taking the time to post your results! Cheers, EMSflyer |
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that was my thought as well. a lot of the premium defensive and hunting ammo is 75-77 and 2 or 3 moa is acceptable for me in self defence roles, longest sight line in the house or on the property is a lot less than 100 yards.
as long as it feeds reliably and goes in with the right end forward performance should be fine. I will report back after getting some supplies for heavy handloads. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I got my 65grain SP game kings and 75grain hornady match bullets in yesterday and loaded up 10 of each in time for a quick range trip today before the weather closes in again.
Loads were with mixed brass but all trimmed to length and nothing too old or brand new. Primer - Rem 7 1/2 br Powder - Varget Press is a Dillon RL550B and I'm using the standard powder measure but weighing each case then reweighing to get the powder drops consistent. All drops are within 0.05grain, my scale doesn't read past tenths. The rifle is still my Smith and Wesson M&P ORC upper on the cav arms lower. 4-12x Bushnell scope and an improvised rest. This is a 1:9 chrome lined barrel. My only change to the upper is swapping the DD Omega rails in place of the stock handguards. 65grain Game Kings with 25 grains of Varget, overall length 2.23" Group size is roughly 1.25" ignoring a called flier when I goofed. From the look of the group I wouldn't be surprised if it would have been a much tighter group with a better rest, I generally knew as the shot went downrange whether it would be right or not. Still, for a first load I'm happy with the results 75grain hornady hpbt match with 24.5 grains of Varget, overall length 2.25" Group size is roughly 1.4" but consistent, throwing out one or even two holes won't significantly change group size. Most importantly from the perspective of using this bullet in this rifle, the holes show no sign of instability. Several people suggested this bullet to me as one of the shorter 75's that would stabilize better in a 1:9 and they appear to have been correct. I'm going to try again at 200 and see what happens but it looks promising. I'm with Molon, in general I would not expect a 75 grain to stabilize well in a 1:9, but some of the more compact designs will do better than longer bullets, and some barrels do better than others. I've never checked my actual twist rate on this barrel so when I get to cleaning in a bit I'll check and add that in here. I'll also see about posting target images. |
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Ok, so I took a bit longer than planned to for part two of that post.
A one interesting thing learned since. My barrel is closer to 1:10 than 1:9 measured by the turn rate of a cleaning rod with both brush and patches. my cat messed up the targets but careful inspection didn't show any signs of out of round holes. After finding out about the slower than rated twist I'm rather surprised, but pleased. I'll check at 200 yards next time I'm at the range, it's certainly possible the relatively short range isn't allowing a mild lack of stability to show. I should have my 1:8 BCM barreled upper this weekend as well, so hopefully weather permits testing results with that as well. I'll also do a very subjective test and compare how distinct hits sound and look on steel plate that can swing. The plate is at 200, and regular 55 grain ammo pretty much has no audible results from the shooter's position and depending on hit location the plate hardly moves. A similar test on hanging bowling pins at 50 yards should be fun too. :) Not very scientific, but fun. |
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I tested the exact same 75 grain load in the new upper. 1:8 twist stainless BCM middy barrel. This is a mid/heavy barrel. There is an FSC556 comp on the end.
Results were essentially identical. I'm actually a bit disappointed, overall results for this new upper are not that great. Groups ranged from 1.5 to 2 inch at 100 yards with loads from 55 to 75 grains. That's not horrible, but I'd hoped for better. I'm going to redo some of the loads, both good and bad, with a bi-pod and then a more solid rest to see if it was just me or some other outside factor. I'll also run some factory match ammo through it. These were not individually weight charges so it's possible the variation was influenced by changes in velocity. I also did NOT give any real rest time for the barrel. It went from one load to the next within a minute or so. I fired twenty rounds at the start to warm it up and pre-foul it a bit for consistency so even the first test string was a warm barrel. It will be interesting to test without this, doing slow fire and letting it cool between sets. ETA- I got impatient so I did some more tests today (4/4/10) Again with the 1:8 stainless 16" middy with FSC556 comp. The wind was acting up but mostly in line with the bullet's path so at 100 yards I don't expect much effect. I was letting the barrel cool between sets this time. 75 grain hornady bthp match gave multiple 10 round groups between 1.25 and 1.5. The 65 grain game king spbt had slightly larger groups but still improved and I didn't get a chance to try as many variations of this bullet. Given my wiggle factor with an improvised rest this is about as tight as I can probably manage for ten rounds. I might have to break down and get a new rest and bags. Interestingly, the accuracy seems to follow velocity for this bullet more than any other factor other than my shooting. Benchmark powder rather than varget made little change at the same velocity, but varget has a higher velocity window with known safe loads. I'll have to check out some other options but those two were all I had for 223. The other significant factor is fairly obvious but also easily ignored unintentionally. Seating depth on AR's tends to be limited more by our magazines than anything else with heavier bullets. I seated most of my loads in this test batch to 2.26 and saw a distinct improvement over otherwise identical loads at shorter lengths. I'm not interested in single shot loads, so I won't bother testing even longer, but I WILL be doing some tests on other bullet profiles. OAL is fine and dandy for feeding, but a different bullet profile can change how far the bullet actually jumps before engaging the rifling and I'm going to have to look at some less pointy bullets maybe. ![]() I don't have the full data handy for this set handy but I'll add it tomorrow along with pics of some targets. This set's out of the cat's way. 65gk - 25.5 varget - 2.21oal - 1.6 65gk - 25.5 varget - 2.25oal - 1.5 65gk - 25.0 varget - 2.25oal - 2.0 (main group 0.9) / 1.35 65gk - 24.5 varget - 2.25oal - 1.75 / 1.25 (different trips) 75hdy - 24.5 varget - 2.25oal - 2.0 (first trip) 75hdy - 24.5 varget 2.26 - oal - 1.65 / 1.4 (cool barrel, more recent) 65gk - 24.8 varget - 2.26oal - 1.65 75hdy - 25.0 varget - 2.26oal - 1.25 75hdy - 22.5 Bench - 2.26oal - 1.4 65gk - 22.5 Bench - 2.26oal -1.5 I tried 23.5 grains of varget with the 75 grain bullet but for some reason I can't find the results. It wasn't particularly impressive but was also a shorter OAL load. I'm honestly starting to think my improvised rest is the major factor with some of these. There's too much wiggle and with ten shot strings it's pretty likely to have "wiggled left and shot was already going to drift left naturally as part of the group" for example. I went rest shopping at Midway and was happy to find that they DO have some less expensive rests these days. I ordered one along with a box of hornady 75grain match to use as a comparison with my loads. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=682659 If it's as good as the reviews indicate it'll be perfect for me. Nice and simple but effective. I've got stuff that works as rear bags with a real rest so that's covered. |
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ALL CREDIT FOR THIS POST BELONGS TO MOLON - I AM MERELY REPOSTING IT IN THIS SECTION - Z.
MK318 Mod 0 (Federal T556TNB1) ![]() The SOST projectile loaded in the MK318 Mod 0 cartridge has a nominal weight of 62 grains and a nominal length of 0.87”. It is constructed with a copper base and a small, non-bonded lead core in the ogive section of the bullet. Due to this higher copper to lead ratio, the MK318 Mod 0 projectile is longer than a traditional copper jacketed/lead core projectile of the same weight, but is still slightly shorter than an M855 projectile. ![]() ![]() While it is often stated that the SOST projectile used in MK318 Mod 0 is similar to the Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, the form of the SOST projectile more closely resembles that of Federal’s Trophy Bonded Tip projectile (without the tip of course.) As previously mentioned, the MK318 projectile does not have a bonded core. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() The loaded MK318 Mod 0 cartridge has a nominal OAL of 2.20". The projectile does not have a cannelure per se, but the case mouth is crimped into the top relief band. The cartridge is sealed at the case mouth, however not with the asphalt sealant typically found on military ammunition. The primers are sealed and crimped. The casehead is stamped "FC 10". The cartridge is charged with ball powder. ![]() ![]() A typical copper jacketed/lead core FMJ bullet will have a specific gravity of approximately 10.2. Due to its higher copper to lead ratio construction, the MK318 Mod 0 projectile has a lower specific gravity of 9.4. When fired from typical AR-15 barrel lengths with a 1:9” twist rate, MK318 Mod 0 will have a gyroscopic stability factor of approximately 1.3. ![]() When fired from typical length barrels with a 1:7" twist rate, MK318 Mod O will have a gyroscopic stability factor of approximately 2.2. ![]() MK318 Mod 0 Chronograph Data Chronographing of the Mk318 Mod 0 ammunition was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with "proof screen” technology. All velocities listed below are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds each. ![]() ![]() Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of "chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker. ![]() Atmospheric conditions: Temperature: 75 degrees F. Humidity: 47%. Barometric pressure: 29.97 inches of Hg Elevation: 950 feet above sea level Two different barrel lengths were used in obtaining velocity data; a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel and a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel. Both barrels have NATO chambers, are chrome lined and have 1:7” twist rates. Both barrels have low round-counts on them. M4A1 barrel. ![]() M16A2 barrel. ![]() For comparison, the MK318 Mod 0 ammunition was fired in sequence with two different brands of 62 grain M855 ammunition. The firing order for both barrels was as follows: 1.A 10-shot string of Winchester Ranger M855 2.A 10-shot string of MK318 Mod 0 3.A 10-shot string of IMI M855 Finally, the data: ![]() ![]() The Crane Warfare Centers' publication, "U.S. Navy Small Arms Ammunition Advancements” reported that MK318 was "optimized” for the MK 16 with a 14 inch barrel and claimed it has a velocity of 2925 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle (presumably from said 14 inch barrel.) The lot of Federal T556TNB1 (MK318 Mod 0) that I chronographed from the Colt 14.5” M4A1 barrel would have a velocity of approximately 2889 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle (at standard atmospheric conditions.) Accuracy Evaluation of MK318 Mod 0 An accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the MK318 Mod 0 ammunition was performed following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots). The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a "control group" was fired from each barrel used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel. Pictures of shot-groups are posted for documentation. All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrels used in the evaluation were free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifles rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifles rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below. ![]() The Wind Probe. ![]() In order to establish a working baseline for the intrinsic accuracy of the 62 grain SOST projectile itself, when fired from a semi-automatic AR-15, I worked-up a SAAMI pressure hand-load with pulled MK318 bullets and fired a 10-shot group of that load from a Krieger barreled AR-15 from a distance of 100 yards. The Krieger barrel has a 1:7.7” twist rate. ![]() Prior to firing the 62 grain SOST hand-load, I fired a 10-shot control group consisting of hand-loaded 62 grain Berger hollow points. The extreme spread for the control group measured 0.66”. ![]() The extreme spread of the 10-shot group of the 62 grain SOST hand-load measured 1.9”. ![]() ![]() ![]() Since MK318 Mod 0 is intended for use as a combat round, I used AR-15s with chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrels for this accuracy evaluation. As previously mentioned, it is reported that MK318 was "optimized” for a 14 inch barrel, so it seemed only fitting to evaluate MK318 from a similar length barrel. The first test vehicle used in this accuracy evaluation was a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. The barrel was free-floated with a Daniel Defense Omega rail. (I was not able to use the mirage-shade with this barrel, due to the original standard front sight base on it.) A previous accuracy evaluation of this M4A1 barrel demonstrated that this barrel is capable of excellent accuracy for a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel. That evaluation can be viewed here: The Colt M4A1 SOCOM Barrel ![]() ![]() A control group fired from the M4A1 barrel using hand-loaded 62 grain Berger hollow-point projectiles had an extreme spread of 1.13”. ![]() Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 were fired from the Colt M4A1 barrel from the previously described bench-rest set-up. The extreme spreads of those groups measured: 2.91” 3.22” 2.70” for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.94”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of this composite group was 1.02”. (For those of you not familiar with the mean radius, I've posted an explanation of it in the third post of this thread.) The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the Colt M4A1 barrel is shown below. ![]() The next test vehicle was a 16” Colt HBAR with a 1:9” twist. This is the same barrel found on the Colt 6721 Tactical Carbine. This barrel is one of the most accurate "out of the box” chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrels that I’ve evaluated. The barrel was free-floated with a LaRue Tactical handguard. ![]() A 10-shot group from this barrel fired using hand-loaded Sierra 52 grain MatchKings had an extreme spread of 0.98”. ![]() Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 fired from the Colt 6721 barrel produced the following extreme spreads: 2.98” 2.85” 2.89” for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.91”. These three groups were also over-layed on each other to produce a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.82”. The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the Colt 6721 barrel . . . ![]() The third barrel used to evaluate the accuracy of MK318 was a 20” Colt HBAR with a 1:7” twist, chrome-lining and a NATO chamber. The barrel is free-floated with a PRI handguard. ![]() A 10-shot group from this barrel fired using hand-loaded 55 grain Sierra BlitzKings had an extreme spread of 1.18”. ![]() Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 fired from the 20” HBAR had extreme spreads of: 2.70” 2.49” 3.24” for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.81”. As before, the three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other to form a 30-shot composite group that produced a mean radius of 0.91”. The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the 20” HBAR . . . ![]() A summary of the results from this evaluation are shown below. ![]() Lastly, for the Internet Commandos in our viewing audience, here’s a pic of a sub-MOA group of the MK318 fired from the 16” Colt HBAR from 100 yards; a cherry-picked 3-shot group that is. ![]() ![]() continued in next post . . . |
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Daddy loves you. Now go away.
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Also, the above report was shot from a bipod off a bench. Wind at 6:00 about 5-10mph.
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<No need to bump - it's marked as "Do Not Archive" and is linked to from within the Ammo Review thread. - Z>
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"I kicked the burning terrorist so hard in the balls that I tore a tendon in my foot."
--Alex McIlveen, Scottish cab driver describing his actions during an attempted terrorist attack at the Glasgow airport in 2007. |
I have been using the Hornady red box (of 50) 75 grain moly coated match ammo since it first came out back in 1993 (I think). A long time anyhow.
It chronographs right around 2700 fps from a stainless steel 1-9 twist 20 inch barrel. And about 2590 fps from a 1-9 16 inch Bushmaster Both NATO chamber. I reload this bullet with BLC-2 and can get safely 2850 fps from a 20 inch or about 2720 fps from a 16 inch. This equals T2 in my rifles. Ive shot alot of coyotes at night with the standard velocity 75 grain ammo. It fragments reliably out to 150 yards which corresponds to Molons predicted results. Past 150 yards the coyotes dont react nearly as dramatically as at close range. Two hits for humane kill fairly normal at "long" range. Which is why I am beginning to use hand loads. I seldom shoot over 200 yards at night, so the little bit of extra velocity seems to work! this is very accurate ammo. I have shot it out to 900 yards and it is stable. |
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We (and sorry but I am unable to specify who 'we' are) have fired in excess of 500K rounds of Mk 262 the last few years, through a number of different weapons types, including M4s. Unfortunately I am at home on holidays and do not have access to detailed chronograph results. If anybody wants I can fill them in later . To date there has been not one single documented complaint or failure report with Black Hills Mk 262. Accuracy (when the shooter does his part of course) is sub-MOA. Jeff Hoffman and his people at Black Hills have always been extremely helpful.
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Originally Posted By DaveBNZ:
We (and sorry but I am unable to specify who 'we' are) have fired in excess of 500K rounds of Mk 262 the last few years, through a number of different weapons types, including M4s. Unfortunately I am at home on holidays and do not have access to detailed chronograph results. If anybody wants I can fill them in later . To date there has been not one single documented complaint or failure report with Black Hills Mk 262. Accuracy (when the shooter does his part of course) is sub-MOA. Jeff Hoffman and his people at Black Hills have always been extremely helpful. View Quote If you get it later, I would be interested in seeing some velocities with barrel lengths other than 14.5, if any. Sure the 5.56 T2 TAP is a little hotter, but the BH MK262 is much more accurate out of my guns. Inside my house neither speed nor accuracy will matter much, but it is nice knowing if I need to hit a "varmint" at 300 yards I could. Both are very good cartridges. |
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Cruz/Paul 2016
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