AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - H & R barrel / FSB question, cool upper receiver too (+ NDS lower = complete rifle!) (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/6/2010 1:30:17 PM EDT
I came up with this cool H&R upper receiver and a barrel that might be a H&R barrel. The barrel, its marked "MP" and "C" by the flash hider but the FSB still has the forging flash on it. The FSB looks similar to other H&R FSBs I've seen posted here, but I don't know what the different numbers mean. Mine has "21" above the barrel and the circle thing on the bayo lug. What do you think, is it a replacement FSB? Is this the first of the non-polished FSBs that ever came out? My barrel looks very similar to the one posted HERE but what is the letter "B" on this barrel?
What is left of the finish on the upper is black. I should have taken a picture before I put the sight wheel back on, but under the leaf spring it is black, not dark gray or black gray. You can also see a ring of black in the barrel hole. |
| Considering that H&R also didn't machine the forge flash from their upper receivers, I could be persuaded that they might have used FSBs with intact flashing earlier than Colt did. The roll pin for the sling swivel is a pre-'70 feature as well. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be a completely original barrel from circa '68. The amount of finish wear to the upper receiver is absolutely beautiful. It deserves to be matched with a black NDS-16A1 lower given the "battlefield pickup" treatment. |
|
Quoted:
Considering that H&R also didn't machine the forge flash from their upper receivers, I could be persuaded that they might have used FSBs with intact flashing earlier than Colt did. The roll pin for the sling swivel is a pre-'70 feature as well. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be a completely original barrel from circa '68. The amount of finish wear to the upper receiver is absolutely beautiful. It deserves to be matched with a black NDS-16A1 lower given the "battlefield pickup" treatment. That's about the exact color of my HR upper receiver. Are you referring to the "CB" marking in the linked picture? CB=chrome bore?????? |
Congrats,you do in fact now own a set that is consistant with the H&R research done by willp.Just a note on the barrel.Yes,could very well be H&R.Read further tho.It appears H&R also was the only one to mark the MP on the left side of the barrel and the C up near muzzle.Specific to H&R at this point.However,both Colt and GM also DID use the same barrel you show.So all 3 manufacturers used that barrel..But in my humble opinion,mount that barrel to that receiver,and you are real good to go.
ETA,another feature to look for on H&R barrels is forge flash on the back of the bayo lug.Also check the FSB and see if there is a letter.Mine had an "A" on its side on the left side of the FSB . ETA2 forgot to add,a marking on the actual bayo lug is also consistant with H&R too. |
I didn't even think to look on the other side of the FSB.  Mine has an "X" and an "O." There is flash on the back of the bayo lug, but I am seeing similar flash on all the FSBs here...
The pieces mock up well, I'm really looking forward to putting this one together. I'm not sure what to do about a lower, it would be nice to match the color / wear of the upper. Thoughts? 
Link for (Big image) Considering that H&R also didn't machine the forge flash from their upper receivers, I could be persuaded that they might have used FSBs with intact flashing earlier than Colt did.
I'm wondering if H&R inspired Colt to cut costs on the FSB. my fsb has a #10..I was told that mine was possibly an H&R, when I posted a similar question a few months back
If these are H&R FSBs, we might have the ultimate flash-having ARs. That's about the exact color of my HR upper receiver.
Are you referring to the "CB" marking in the linked picture? CB=chrome bore?????? I was thinking it might be the same color. I've never heard about the "CB" and I'm thinking someone may have stamped the "B" later in life. |
|
Quoted:
Mine has an "X" and an "O." Awww how sweet! 
Seriously though, for the lower, if you don't feel comfortable weathering one yourself, you can pay NDS $10 extra to weather one for you. Since they also do test fitting if you send them your upper, I might send the upper and ask them to match the amount of wear as well. |
Change of plans, the barrel was too nice for that upper so I put it on a different H&R upper I have. Its got forge flash front and rear and has engraved "L -> R" instead of raised. It is so dark I decided to put it on a black lower that I can buy cheap locally, I don't really like the color match between upper and lower though. I'm going to save (not refinish) the "bronze" upper for when I come up with a more worn barrel to match it. Hey, maybe someone here can sell / trade me one???
Full size click HERE 
|
| Somebob, your barrel w/MP C near muzzle, code on FSB/lug, etc is consistent w/H&R & quite possibly GM M16A1's. All H&R & GM barrels/FSB's appear to have the flashing left on the FSB's as do Colt's of that era, it's most probable the flashing was left on starting around 69-70 on all FSB's as it had no impact on functioning of the rifles & production was increasing on all 3 contracts, Colt, H&R & GM, it's simply a manufacturing shortcut to decrease time/increase output. The other barrel in the link looks to have been an H&R/GM barrel, MP C near muzzle, the B doesn't look original to me. All the H&R/GM barrels I've gotten info on are chrome chambers only, chrome bores didn't start until 1971 which was about the end of H&R/GM production, it's possible it may have been a very late barrel earmarked for H&R or GM w/chrome bore (CB) but if so it'd be the first one I've heard of (which doesn't mean they don't exist of course!). In early-mid 67 chrome chamber barrels became the standard in production, Colt reportedly marked theirs MP C near muzzle until 1969 when the marking was changed to C MP C on the barrel (first C was to id Colt mfg barrels), this marking change coincided w/H&R/GM going into production & the markings were changed by Colt to ID Colt production parts, as were the bolts, carriers etc, H&R/GM production used the old Colt markings MP C near muzzle throughout their production as their contracts were complete when the chrome bore barrels came into use. The main "points" I've found to id H&R/GM production barrels are the codes/markings etc on the FSB's & on some flash is on the back of the bayonet lug, I haven't seen a documented example of a Colt MP C barrel w/the flash on the rear of the lug at this point. It appears that H&R & GM may have subcontracted for their barrels & FSB's & have been supplied by the same subcontractors as both were under pressure to get production going, speculation has been that Colt supplied barrels to H&R/GM but this I feel is highly doubtful as at the time H&R/GM got their contracts Colt also got a huge contract in addition to contracts to supply the military w/the (at the time) new chrome chamber barrels to replace worn barrels on rifles already in service, documetation shows that Colt was having a hard time manufacturing enough barrels at the time to keep up on their contracts let alone to supply additional barrels to 2 competitors! At this point the codes & markings on the FSB's/lugs & flash on rear of the lugs is a definite indicator of H&R/GM barrels although not all have the flashing on the back of the lug, there is another marking on barrels which is attributable specifically to H&R production, that is MP upside down on the LEFT of the barrel between the FSB legs & C near the muzzle but these are fairly rare & were probably fitted to a very low number of H&R rifles. |
| Thanks for the info Will. I never knew the flash was left on H&R / GM FSBs, I've only seen pictures of them from the side until I saw the one that I linked from the EE. I didn't recognize the number "21" and thought the forging flash meant it was probably a replacement FSB. I'm going to look into having a lower anodized to match the color of the "bronze" upper. |
|
I remember seeing a post about a bronze tinted charging handle and someone commented they should assemble a rifle from all the odd colored parts they could find. I want to do it but with a bronze theme. I came up with two different worn charging handles to choose from, the left one is gray that has worn through to a not so interesting bronze color and the one on the right is black that has worn trough to a copper color. It only has the strong copper color on the "T" part but the black would match the remaining finish on the upper. I put a port door on that has no park on it but it looks too new. I contacted Victor at US Anodizing and he said he can finish a lower similar to my upper as long as it is made of 7075. (I have to age it) As far as slip rings go, I think this picture on RBR is the closest match I have seen.
Questions:
|
|
Your not crazy, that's an awesome idea.
If your going to go all out with it, get a nice nodak lower to send in. Wouldn't be as cool otherwise. I also think that the more brass colored charging handle would go better with that upper but, that copper one sure looks nice. 
|
|
Quoted:
Them there with the number on the right side and a letter on the left be Hydra-Matic barrels. Ekie, Good to have you back my friend! Your presence will give this place back a touch of class. I have also noticed this trait being common to GM's. I never got a big enough sample of original rifles for the data base to determine if that trait was exclusive though. We'll never know now as they have all gone to the Depots to become Uugh! A2’s. Wpns Man |
|
Them there with the number on the right side and a letter on the left be Hydra-Matic barrels.
Cool. I really appreciate the retro variation / buyers guides and the info on RBR, but there seems to be a lack of information regarding GM / H&R rifles. Before willp replied to this thread I never new the FSBs for these barrels had forging flash. The only picture I had seen of one of these barrels had "19" on it so when I saw "21" and forging flash on this one I wasn't sure what I had. Do they all have letters on the other side? I didn't know to look for that until m1sniper asked me to look. Your not crazy, that's an awesome idea.
20% of the respondents say I'm not crazy, that's pretty good isn't it? |
|
I also have what I believe to be an original HR upper & barrel. My FSB has the same partial circle on the bayonet lug with flash on the back just like the photo from the OP.
The only difference is that my FSB has the number "4" instead of 21. The upper was purchased from Ohio Ordnance works several years when they were selling them for $350. I bought two at the time, the other was also an H & R upper that had been arsenal refinished and had a replacement SAK barrel (which is very accurate). |
|
Quoted:
My barrel looks very similar to the one posted HERE but what is the letter "B" on this barrel? I bought that barrel, the front sight block has the same markings as yours. There is a CB at the end of the barrel, MP on the side. The Gas block has an O on it along with 21. The bayonet lug also has flash on the backside of it. The barrel at the chamber end has an O stamped in it with what looks like 164 electro penciled near it. I managed to knock the taper pins out and get the gas block off. My plans right now are to put a full gas block back in... if anyone has the proper one I'm sure we can work something out
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
My barrel looks very similar to the one posted HERE but what is the letter "B" on this barrel? I bought that barrel, the front sight block has the same markings as yours. There is a CB at the end of the barrel, MP on the side. The Gas block has an O on it along with 21. The bayonet lug also has flash on the backside of it. The barrel at the chamber end has an O stamped in it with what looks like 164 electro penciled near it. I managed to knock the taper pins out and get the gas block off. My plans right now are to put a full gas block back in... if anyone has the proper one I'm sure we can work something out
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205331319 |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My barrel looks very similar to the one posted HERE but what is the letter "B" on this barrel? I bought that barrel, the front sight block has the same markings as yours. There is a CB at the end of the barrel, MP on the side. The Gas block has an O on it along with 21. The bayonet lug also has flash on the backside of it. The barrel at the chamber end has an O stamped in it with what looks like 164 electro penciled near it. I managed to knock the taper pins out and get the gas block off. My plans right now are to put a full gas block back in... if anyone has the proper one I'm sure we can work something out
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205331319 I've been meaning to order one from Apex, but I know they're Colt (which I thought this barrel was!). |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My barrel looks very similar to the one posted HERE but what is the letter "B" on this barrel? I bought that barrel, the front sight block has the same markings as yours. There is a CB at the end of the barrel, MP on the side. The Gas block has an O on it along with 21. The bayonet lug also has flash on the backside of it. The barrel at the chamber end has an O stamped in it with what looks like 164 electro penciled near it. I managed to knock the taper pins out and get the gas block off. My plans right now are to put a full gas block back in... if anyone has the proper one I'm sure we can work something out
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205331319 I've been meaning to order one from Apex, but I know they're Colt (which I thought this barrel was!). the thing with the ones from Apex is that they have been used, so they already have the taper pin holes drilled. Installing a used fsb on a barrel that has also been drilled already may be problematic |
|
I bought that barrel, the front sight block has the same markings as yours. There is a CB at the end of the barrel, MP on the side. The Gas block has an O on it along with 21. The bayonet lug also has flash on the backside of it. The barrel at the chamber end has an O stamped in it with what looks like 164 electro penciled near it. I managed to knock the taper pins out and get the gas block off. My plans right now are to put a full gas block back in... if anyone has the proper one I'm sure we can work something out
I'll look for an "O" or something near the barrel end. WTF!?!
Earlier this year there was some kind of H&R post and I posted / asked questions about that upper, I'm pretty sure its in the archives by now. It has forging flash on the front and rear of the carry handle and has engraved "L -> R" instead of raised. I wasn't sure if it was original finish or not, no one really commented. Now that I look at it again I think it is original finish. The barrel nut threads are shiny while the rest of it has a flat finish. (If it were refinished I think the threads would not be shiny and have the same appearance as the rest of the upper) There are belt sander (?) marks by the sight wheel so I'm thinking there was some flaw with the raised letters in the forging and they were sanded off and "replaced" with engraved / rolled letters. If it is original finish it would at least seem that the sanding marks are from manufacture. sight wheel close up shiny threads, flat finish Someone posted pictures of a very similar upper. I'm not sure if it had forging flash on the front of the handle but it was engraved by the sight wheel. It looked painted, people suggested he strip it but I don't think he posted any kind of follow up. Someone else with an engraved H&R upper had similar but not as deep sanding marks on theirs too. |
|
My (contractor) job is coming to an end, I have saved money to do this and will have time to work on this in one week! Before I go ahead and buy a lower and have it (re)finished to match this upper can anyone confirm that H&R lowers were anodized in the same way? I think the upper looks cool and a matching lower would look cool too, but I'm reluctant to make a replica of something that never really existed.
I've been busy with work so I haven't had a chance to call NDS about this, but I keep seeing "in the white" partial fence lowers available on their site (NDS-XM16E1) but they don't / won't have any full fence lowers "in the white." Does anyone have any other details about this? Will I have to get an anodized lower and have it refinished? Does the bead blasting screw them up? I'd like to avoid refinishing an already anodized lower if possible. From NDS website
DO NOT SEND IN ANY MORE ORDERS FOR "IN THE WHITE" NDS-16A1 LOWERS AS WE CAN'T GUARANTEE YOUR RESULTS UPDATE I'm sending the upper to NDS to get a best fit full fence "in the white" lower, from there it goes to Victor for best color match. I removed the rear sight so he can see what is left of the original finish. 
|
|
I was under the impression that they were having all of their currrent production A1s anodized to "catch up" on orders due to the cosmetic anodizing blems from the last run.
Every time I've EMd Harlan with a Q? he's answered within 36-48 hrs. Shoot him an email. Beel
|
I got the lower back from US Anodizing, it was flat black but you could see some of the bronze showing through in the trigger well. I put the rifle together with "sacrificial" parts thinking I would be rubbing on the thing for the next 24 hours but the black came off much easier than I expected. I hit it with an oil soaked piece of scotch-brite pad but it was way too aggressive. I ended up using Mothers aluminum wheel polish and paper towels. After taking most of the black off I rubbed a clean paper towel over the "hidden" black areas to get the "fuzz" off and the finish polishes to a semi-gloss and barely begins to show the bronze underneath. Right now I have mostly DPMS LPK parts but am looking for a rear take-down pin and a worn bolt catch, the selector wouldn't blue after removing the tick. The front pin is a dented H&R pin that looks like it barely survived being de-milled, the mag release button has a brown tint to it and was donated from a kind gentleman I met on GB, the gold trigger guard was bought off the EE, the almost "correct" slip ring came from a friend, the PG is a "sacrificial" old mottled one, the sling is the softest seat belt sling I have ever felt and it is almost gold colored, gold Colt mag came from the pile, and my friend said to use the copper colored charging handle so I went with his advice. The flash hider is too worn to match the barrel but I don't want to ruin any of the nice ones I have, the right hand guard has the "lizard skin" texture and the left has the frosted cake swirl texture. I guess I have to put some dents and scratches in the lower now.  I love it, its amazing to hold it in your hands. Thank you NDS for finding a good fitting lower and I couldn't expect more from the color match but it could use just a touch more green. I'll be sending a thank you email to Victor next. Here are some pictures, the cloth is from Indonesia and is the only non-ugly background I could come up with but I think the colors go well together.
full width image 
full width image 
I hope you like it, let me know if you would like to sell / trade bronze colored parts I am missing.
|
|
WOW, that looks great.
Looks like an old work horse that had to have a new trigger dropped in to keep it functional. I actually like it with the new looking trigger. I'll check my parts bin tonight and see if I have anything that you might want, but I doubt I'll have anything that looks any more worn. I could send you a slip ring in case you want to have one to experiment with.(i.e. Drag it behind your car for a few miles.) Great job! |
|
Thanks for all the comments guys, I figured some of you would like it.
Quoted:
WOW, that looks great. Looks like an old work horse that had to have a new trigger dropped in to keep it functional. I actually like it with the new looking trigger. I'll check my parts bin tonight and see if I have anything that you might want, but I doubt I'll have anything that looks any more worn. I could send you a slip ring in case you want to have one to experiment with.(i.e. Drag it behind your car for a few miles.) Great job! TexSquirrel, if you have a slip ring that looks like its wearing through to gold / bronze I am interested. The one I came up with doesn't look too bad, it has some color in it. I hit it with scotch-brite real quick but didn't notice any change, I might have to hit it again. When I look at the complete barreled upper that MacAttack came up with I figured mine should have a similar looking slip ring. I hadn't thought of the trigger that way, I was going to try the naval jelly trick.
Quoted:
that's a fantastic job somebob 
....love the wear pattern on the grip Thanks, glad you like it. That grip is the most trashed one in the pile, I put it on figuring it would get damaged while rubbing the black off. I like the wear, but it might be a little excessive. (Then again, what did the rifle it came off look like???) All the worn PGs I have are mottled so I thought the would be too old for this rifle, but now that I think about it wouldn't any PG start to mottle when it gets that worn? There are 2 (totally trashed) skinny grips in the pile, both have lighter colored fibers while most / all of the fat ones have the darker fibers, do you know what this means? Quoted:
nice job. glad to see the h&r build done. that's a high benchmark now for people wanting to do their own. Thanks, hopefully it will get even better if I can come up with a couple more H&R specific parts. Quoted:
looks good building one myself at Ident getting its logo H&R and off to victor I wasn't sure how this would turn out so I didn't want to spend more money on something that I would end up "screwing up." I might have it engraved later. (They can do that, right?) Quoted:
Very nice
That will turn heads at the range. Thanks, I'm contemplating what to do next but it will be another custom anodizing build. |
|
Quoted:
Holy crap! Nice work! Are you going to rub the barrel and give it a worn look too? Thanks man, the barrel has a little rust on the FSB and the tips are worn to bare metal so I figure it is appropriate for this rifle. I can't bring myself to scuff it up, I'm just going to leave it as it is. I think if I come up with a less worn flash hider things will balance out and it won't look so out of place. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - H & R barrel / FSB question, cool upper receiver too (+ NDS lower = complete rifle!) (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor