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Posted: 10/21/2009 8:55:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2009 6:37:18 PM EST by engineer2001]
My question letter:
RE: Legality of a new, stripped AR15 lower receiver for building a pistol

Dear sir or madam:

I would like to purchase a new, stripped AR15 lower receiver from my local gun store. If it is transferred to me on form 4473 as “Other” (a stripped receiver) and not a rifle or pistol, is it legal to build into an AR15 pistol with a barrel length of less than 16 inches, so long as I do not attach a butt stock or vertical foregrip?

In addition, is it legal for me to add a rubber walking cane tip (such as those found in drug stores to provide a non-slip grip for canes) to the end of the buffer tube to provide a non-slip way to stand the AR15 pistol up in my gun safe? The rubber cane tips I am writing of are round and have a radius that is only about five millimeters thicker than the buffer tube, so it could not be used as a shoulder stock. It would also function to block any soot from getting on my shirt through the hole in the end of the buffer tube while shooting.

Thank you for your response and legal clarification on these matters. Your assistance is most appreciated.

Sincerely,

engineer2001







I got a reply after two and a half months.

Finally got them posted. Of course I edited out my name and address for my privacy (I don't want just any old crook reading this knowing at what address the AR pistols are located for stealing).

Anyway, you can see for yourself - any virgin stripped lower is suitable and legal for an AR pistol build. Likewise, you can add a rubber chair leg/cane tip without fear it is a buttstock.
Link Posted: 10/21/2009 11:13:31 PM EST
Pardon my ignorance of AR pistols but what is a rubber cane tip
Link Posted: 10/21/2009 11:43:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By nicholsmf:
Pardon my ignorance of AR pistols but what is a rubber cane tip


The little black rubber thing on the bottom of walking canes for grip.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 12:13:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2009 1:17:02 AM EST by nicholsmf]
Nevermind, I read the letter again. Got it now.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 12:15:02 AM EST
Wow, not the opinion I thought it would be when I read the title.

I had wondered how something like this would be interpreted.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 12:15:03 AM EST
Buffer tube I believe?
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 12:37:44 AM EST
feel better now
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 1:34:16 AM EST
Did anyone notice they used "right" instead of "wright in the last sentence. not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 1:44:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2009 1:48:42 AM EST by 53vortec]
Originally Posted By Byrd-Shooter:
Did anyone notice they used "right" instead of "wright in the last sentence. not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.


Did anyone notice he used "wright" instead of "write" in that sentence? Not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 1:45:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Byrd-Shooter:
Did anyone notice they used "right" instead of "wright in the last sentence. not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.


Very funny!! Tards

Link Posted: 10/22/2009 1:48:10 AM EST
This should be sticked to the top.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 2:45:45 PM EST
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 3:22:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Originally Posted By Byrd-Shooter:
Did anyone notice they used "right" instead of "wright in the last sentence. not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.


Did anyone notice he used "wright" instead of "write" in that sentence? Not that I'm grammar police, but I do find that funny.


Link Posted: 10/22/2009 4:07:41 PM EST
+1 This needs a sticky.
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 4:21:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as


Hell no it won't end that argument because they (the manufacturers) will still come in here and chime in their BS in order to justify them charging some poor SOB an extra $50-$100 for those two stupid words, "PISTOL ONLY."
There is a sucker born every minute and they know if they repeat a lie often enough many will believe it and buy their price inflated "pistol lower."
Let the buyer beware.

This letter says nothing different from the letter I posted and which is tacked at the very top of this forum dated back in 2004; people chose to not believe that one then and they will choose not to believe this one now.

Link Posted: 10/22/2009 4:54:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2009 5:14:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as


Hell no it won't end that argument because they (the manufacturers) will still come in here and chime in their BS in order to justify them charging some poor SOB an extra $50-$100 for those two stupid words, "PISTOL ONLY."
There is a sucker born every minute and they know if they repeat a lie often enough many will believe it and buy their price inflated "pistol lower."
Let the buyer beware.

This letter says nothing different from the letter I posted and which is tacked at the very top of this forum dated back in 2004; people chose to not believe that one then and they will choose not to believe this one now.



There are still some manufacturers that don't charge a different price for pistol marked vs. rifle marked lowers. Mega is one that comes to mind and they are absolutely great to deal with.

This letter also settles the rubber cane tip question once and for all. I must say that I am surprised they stated it was totally okay as it seems a bit counterintuitive, but maybe they feel for the explanation that it is only to help keep it from falling over against a wall and they didn't think that it would be very helpful when shouldering an AR pistol. Good thing the winds seem to be blowing in our direction for a change.
Link Posted: 10/23/2009 7:12:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2009 7:12:49 PM EST by runs-with-scissors]

Originally Posted By lifeofahero:
+1 This needs a sticky.

+2 –– don't we have a sticky for the other tech branch letters?

- and this one being a statement on rifle / pistol lowers that i know i have seen a couple of threads go back and forth on.
Link Posted: 10/23/2009 8:28:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2009 8:28:55 PM EST by FIGJAM]
engineer2001,

Would you mind posting the letter you sent to the ATF so we know what you asked them?
Link Posted: 10/24/2009 2:27:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
engineer2001,

Would you mind posting the letter you sent to the ATF so we know what you asked them?


I just get a bad feeling that ATF didn't think through their response all that well. There are some pretty substantial "rubber cane tips" out there. I wonder if they will revisit this issue.

3" diameter (on the end of a rifle length buffer tube, it would make an easy shouldering pistol)

Link Posted: 10/24/2009 9:42:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 11:12:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as


Hell no it won't end that argument because they (the manufacturers) will still come in here and chime in their BS in order to justify them charging some poor SOB an extra $50-$100 for those two stupid words, "PISTOL ONLY."
There is a sucker born every minute and they know if they repeat a lie often enough many will believe it and buy their price inflated "pistol lower."
Let the buyer beware.

This letter says nothing different from the letter I posted and which is tacked at the very top of this forum dated back in 2004; people chose to not believe that one then and they will choose not to believe this one now.




We never charged more for pistol marked lowers. We actually still sell them, some people feel more comfortable having it on there. We do have letters for our stripped lowers stating they are virgin.


Pardon the ignorance here, but why the redundancies? This is not a case of affirmative defense, where you have to prove your innocent. Rather, when/if the ATF goes after someone regarding illegal conversion, THEY must prove that the receiver was at one point a rifle. In other word, I don't have to prove that the lower was a virgin, but they have to prove that the lower has at one point been a rifle lower.

More over, consider the scenario where someone took a "Pistol Only" marked lower and converted it into a rifle (a legal act). He then sold that rifle to someone, who then took it apart and sold the parts separately. A subsequent buyer buys the lower that is marked "Pistol Only" and made it into a pistol, unknowingly. This last act is illegal without formal registration and can get the last buyer in serious trouble because this redundant marking.

Al

Link Posted: 10/26/2009 5:28:24 PM EST
Cool. Now someone just has to start selling canes with CTR adjustable height end caps.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 11:15:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By mythaeus:
Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as


Hell no it won't end that argument because they (the manufacturers) will still come in here and chime in their BS in order to justify them charging some poor SOB an extra $50-$100 for those two stupid words, "PISTOL ONLY."
There is a sucker born every minute and they know if they repeat a lie often enough many will believe it and buy their price inflated "pistol lower."
Let the buyer beware.

This letter says nothing different from the letter I posted and which is tacked at the very top of this forum dated back in 2004; people chose to not believe that one then and they will choose not to believe this one now.




We never charged more for pistol marked lowers. We actually still sell them, some people feel more comfortable having it on there. We do have letters for our stripped lowers stating they are virgin.


Pardon the ignorance here, but why the redundancies? This is not a case of affirmative defense, where you have to prove your innocent. Rather, when/if the ATF goes after someone regarding illegal conversion, THEY must prove that the receiver was at one point a rifle. In other word, I don't have to prove that the lower was a virgin, but they have to prove that the lower has at one point been a rifle lower.

More over, consider the scenario where someone took a "Pistol Only" marked lower and converted it into a rifle (a legal act). He then sold that rifle to someone, who then took it apart and sold the parts separately. A subsequent buyer buys the lower that is marked "Pistol Only" and made it into a pistol, unknowingly. This last act is illegal without formal registration and can get the last buyer in serious trouble because this redundant marking.

Al



You are correct in that the burden of proof is on the government in a prosecution. That does not, however, amount to anything with Johnny Law on the side of the highway when he searches your vehicle - I personally know of one case where someone in possession of an AK pistol was hauled to jail because the officer thought the pistol was an illegal SBR.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 2:38:30 AM EST
Nice. Guess I'll go forward w/ ordering parts for my SBR upper, and throw it on a virgin lower then.
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 5:50:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2009 6:39:07 PM EST by engineer2001]
Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
engineer2001,

Would you mind posting the letter you sent to the ATF so we know what you asked them?


I just get a bad feeling that ATF didn't think through their response all that well. There are some pretty substantial "rubber cane tips" out there. I wonder if they will revisit this issue.

3" diameter (on the end of a rifle length buffer tube, it would make an easy shouldering pistol)

http://www.maxiaids.com/ProdImages/lg/152263.jpg


Wowzers, that is a big cane tip. I specified the size of my rubber cane tip in my question letter. It was only 10mm larger than the diameter of the pistol buffer tube. I'll dig up the question letter and post it.

ETA: Added the text I sent them to the original post. I have no idea why it's not wrapping and is making us scroll way right to see all of it. I edited it twice, and I can't see any special tags or anything to cause that. Oh well, at least it's there.
Link Posted: 10/28/2009 5:55:24 PM EST
OST
Link Posted: 10/29/2009 4:57:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
engineer2001,

Would you mind posting the letter you sent to the ATF so we know what you asked them?


I just get a bad feeling that ATF didn't think through their response all that well. There are some pretty substantial "rubber cane tips" out there. I wonder if they will revisit this issue.

3" diameter (on the end of a rifle length buffer tube, it would make an easy shouldering pistol)

http://www.maxiaids.com/ProdImages/lg/152263.jpg


Wowzers, that is a big cane tip. I specified the size of my rubber cane tip in my question letter. It was only 10mm larger than the diameter of the pistol buffer tube. I'll dig up the question letter and post it.

ETA: Added the text I sent them to the original post. I have no idea why it's not wrapping and is making us scroll way right to see all of it. I edited it twice, and I can't see any special tags or anything to cause that. Oh well, at least it's there.


I guess I just see the potential for some to go overboard with their choice of "cane tip". A buffer tube that were a few inches longer with one of those cane tips would pretty much negate the need for an SBR at all and make an AR pistol almost pleasant to shoot from the shoulder.

If all one truly needs is a non-slip endcap to cover the hole in the buffer tube, one of these would have probably been more than sufficient and not required "clarification".
Link Posted: 10/29/2009 7:34:29 AM EST
Build the pistol already...Rock River Pistol Buffer Tube, CAR Buffer & Spring and a nice thick towel over the should does the trick. No letter to / from the ATF, no "cane tip", and no SBR paperwork. Even has "RRA Pistol Only" on mag release button side. Works good, lasts a long time!

Link Posted: 10/30/2009 12:08:36 AM EST
Is there a limit on how long the buffer tube can be? Who make the longest buffer?
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 4:31:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By atl3695:
Is there a limit on how long the buffer tube can be? Who make the longest buffer?


I don't believe there is a limit on buffer length, but I think all the "pistol" specific buffer tubes are carbine tube length.

If anyone knows of a "pistol" specific buffer tube that is about 3-4" longer, please post it up.

Link Posted: 10/30/2009 11:32:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2009 11:33:42 AM EST by engineer2001]
Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
If all one truly needs is a non-slip endcap to cover the hole in the buffer tube, one of these would have probably been more than sufficient and not required "clarification".
http://www.stockcap.com/images/32.jpg


That's basically what I have. I tried to find the skinniest rubber cane tip I could. Works great on my 9mm pistol, so I plan to use the other one (it was a 2-pack) on the 5.56 pistol I am building.

Link Posted: 10/30/2009 12:06:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2009 12:08:36 PM EST by texjames]
[whoops
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 7:32:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2009 7:32:15 PM EST by Overton-AR]
I love that you posted that letter. Especially the part about the "cane tip." I am now on a search for the LARGEST cane tip I can find. So far this is the best one........

"

Trim the sides a bit and you will have a nice LEGAL pistol that can be shouldered quite comfortably.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 8:10:10 PM EST
Remember the ATF can, and has changed their minds in the past.
Link Posted: 11/7/2009 7:13:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By atl3695:
Is there a limit on how long the buffer tube can be? Who make the longest buffer?


Jesus Christ people quit pushing this issue. There is no mention of buffer tubes in the law, they are not meant to be shouldered so they are not a rifle stock period, put a 10 footer on it, IT- IS- NOT- A- STOCK- MEANT- TO- BE- FIRED- FROM- THEE- SHOULDER- SO- IT- DOES- NOT- FIT- THEE- DEFINITION- OF- A- RIFLE!!!!!!! If you want to fire from the shoulder get a rifle or SBR, the AR pistol fires great from the "cheek weld" position.



FROM NFA HANDBOOK

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more
barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and
extending below the line of the bore(s).



Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to
fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any
such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.



Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed
shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored
to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
Link Posted: 11/7/2009 7:49:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By WHITE_WOLFE:
Remember the ATF can, and has changed their minds in the past.

Yep people are going to keep writing letters till they finally get an answer that totally sucks......

Link Posted: 11/7/2009 12:27:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2009 12:29:04 PM EST by UZISBR]
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By atl3695:
Is there a limit on how long the buffer tube can be? Who make the longest buffer?


Jesus Christ people quit pushing this issue. There is no mention of buffer tubes in the law, they are not meant to be shouldered so they are not a rifle stock period, put a 10 footer on it, IT- IS- NOT- A- STOCK- MEANT- TO- BE- FIRED- FROM- THEE- SHOULDER- SO- IT- DOES- NOT- FIT- THEE- DEFINITION- OF- A- RIFLE!!!!!!! If you want to fire from the shoulder get a rifle or SBR, the AR pistol fires great from the "cheek weld" position.



FROM NFA HANDBOOK

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more
barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and
extending below the line of the bore(s).




Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to
fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any
such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.



Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed
shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored
to fire a fixed shotgun shell.



AMEN BROTHER.......

Some are going to keep pushing this issue until a revision occurs that screws us all

Link Posted: 11/7/2009 12:36:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2009 12:40:35 PM EST by rippersde50]
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Does this finally end the argument if it matters what the manufacturer logged it in as


Hell no it won't end that argument because they (the manufacturers) will still come in here and chime in their BS in order to justify them charging some poor SOB an extra $50-$100 for those two stupid words, "PISTOL ONLY."
There is a sucker born every minute and they know if they repeat a lie often enough many will believe it and buy their price inflated "pistol lower."
Let the buyer beware.

This letter says nothing different from the letter I posted and which is tacked at the very top of this forum dated back in 2004; people chose to not believe that one then and they will choose not to believe this one now.



My Anvil Arms pistol lower has "Registered Pistol" etched on it but it cost the same as a standard lower($100 at the time).
Link Posted: 11/7/2009 4:10:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By UZISBR:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By atl3695:
Is there a limit on how long the buffer tube can be? Who make the longest buffer?


Jesus Christ people quit pushing this issue. There is no mention of buffer tubes in the law, they are not meant to be shouldered so they are not a rifle stock period, put a 10 footer on it, IT- IS- NOT- A- STOCK- MEANT- TO- BE- FIRED- FROM- THEE- SHOULDER- SO- IT- DOES- NOT- FIT- THEE- DEFINITION- OF- A- RIFLE!!!!!!! If you want to fire from the shoulder get a rifle or SBR, the AR pistol fires great from the "cheek weld" position.



FROM NFA HANDBOOK

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more
barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and
extending below the line of the bore(s).




Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to
fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any
such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.



Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed
shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored
to fire a fixed shotgun shell.



AMEN BROTHER.......

Some are going to keep pushing this issue until a revision occurs that screws us all



Let it. It just goes to show that they are a bunch of asshats that can't get their stories straight from one minute to the next. They have a term for it in the medical field - Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder).
Link Posted: 11/8/2009 10:47:20 AM EST
I just found this new and improved cane tip, thinking of getting it since the ATF approved cane tips for our AR pistols, this will look really good on mine.
http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab115/XrayMed/ar0250-buttstock.jpg

Let me know what you guys think, maybe we could get a bulk order go'n
Link Posted: 11/10/2009 7:49:15 AM EST
where do you find the plastic tube caps. I need one for the end of my buffer tube and I also need one to replace the one on the tube my spikes conversion kit came in.
Link Posted: 11/10/2009 8:02:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
engineer2001,

Would you mind posting the letter you sent to the ATF so we know what you asked them?


I just get a bad feeling that ATF didn't think through their response all that well. There are some pretty substantial "rubber cane tips" out there. I wonder if they will revisit this issue.

3" diameter (on the end of a rifle length buffer tube, it would make an easy shouldering pistol)

http://www.maxiaids.com/ProdImages/lg/152263.jpg


Don't get them thinking ...
Link Posted: 11/10/2009 8:04:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By XrayMed:
I just found this new and improved cane tip, thinking of getting it since the ATF approved cane tips for our AR pistols, this will look really good on mine.
http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab115/XrayMed/ar0250-buttstock.jpg

Let me know what you guys think, maybe we could get a bulk order go'n


Link Posted: 11/10/2009 8:28:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Wowzers, that is a big cane tip. I specified the size of my rubber cane tip in my question letter. It was only 10mm larger than the diameter of the pistol buffer tube. I'll dig up the question letter and post it.


This is precisely why ATF opinion letters are really only valid for the person to whom they are addressed.
Link Posted: 11/11/2009 12:28:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Wowzers, that is a big cane tip. I specified the size of my rubber cane tip in my question letter. It was only 10mm larger than the diameter of the pistol buffer tube. I'll dig up the question letter and post it.


This is precisely why ATF opinion letters are really only valid for the person to whom they are addressed.


But that means more people have to write their own letters and we all know how writing more letters gets quite a few folks panties in a really tight bunch...
Link Posted: 11/11/2009 1:02:37 PM EST
Rubber Chair Leg Tip works too...

Link Posted: 11/19/2009 6:56:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2009 7:01:12 AM EST by ander254]
So what size cane tips are you using? I went to wally world and a pharmacy and the largest cane tip was 3/4" which won't fit on my Spikes tube. I bought a What'a'grip to put on the shaft of the tube but want something on the tip. I thought about pulling the handle grip off of one of my yard tools but so as I do I'll wish it was back on it. I like the tube cover from spikes but wish it covered the end as well as the sides.
Link Posted: 11/19/2009 9:50:04 AM EST
I bought a 1" from ebay it should be here next week. I think it will work or might take a little modification.

ebay
Link Posted: 11/20/2009 3:04:49 AM EST
At Lowe's you can get a package of four rubber furniture tips in various sizes for around $2. I got the 1 1/8" for my RRA tube and it is a good tight fit. I'm thinking of putting the other three "ATF Approved Tactical AR15 Pistol Buffer Tube Caps" on Ebay for $9.99 Buy it Now with free shipping! Any takers?
Link Posted: 11/20/2009 5:12:51 AM EST
i hadn't thought about lowe's. which section is the furniture tips in?
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