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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My SDMR goes to 500 yards *Photos* (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:54:20 PM EDT
Had a post awhile back for my sub-MOA SDMR build and said I would repost when I took it out past the 100 yard range. Took it out to 500 yards just using XM193 and iron sights (no optics) on a stable rest. Target was 2 pieces of high visibility orange piece of poster board stapled together on some plywood. 5 round group with good grouping for mil-spec ammo. This was the only group I fired. White tacks in holes. Maybe a little lady luck, as I know XM193 is not match grade ammo and my eyes aren't 18 anymore.
BH 69 GR match is the best performer. I posted on this 5 shot group shot at 100 yards with day optic and rest over at the Hide and complete thread with build details. 
Here's pic of the rifle with a trijicon optic 
Here's the range and 500 yards is at the very end. Long way off. 
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Quoted: 1.266 MOA at 500 yards with XM193 and iron sights. That is remarkable shooting. That target looks like what I shoot at 200 yards with XM-193 with optics, and i'm 26. I've shot a quarter moa with a customized bolt gun before, so I am skeptical of the validity of this range report given the ammo and weapon system used. |
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1.266 MOA at 500 yards with XM193 and iron sights. That is remarkable shooting. That target looks like what I shoot at 200 yards with XM-193 with optics, and i'm 26. I've shot a quarter moa with a customized bolt gun before, so I am skeptical of the validity of this range report given the ammo and weapon system used. One way to find out. Try some more 458 |
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Just posted the same thread over on the Hide where I call home. For the skeptics, this isn't a chick or a beer I'm after - so no reason to embellish LOL. Like i said I did learn how to shoot in the Army and not on an Xbox if that helps.  Link to SH thread? |
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1.266 MOA at 500 yards with XM193 and iron sights. That is remarkable shooting. That target looks like what I shoot at 200 yards with XM-193 with optics, and i'm 26. I've shot a quarter moa with a customized bolt gun before, so I am skeptical of the validity of this range report given the ammo and weapon system used. Honestly I think the shooters inaccurracy improved his target. |
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Good shooting.
What the OP done (or close to it) is really not too hard with a little practice, for those doubters. The steel turkey in this pic is about 8in from the top of the torso to the bottom. This was done with an AR, bulk ammo and a 3-9x40 Burris scope. My first exposure to AR type rifles was in the army as well, but I was shooting squirrels not long after I learned to ride a bike. 
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http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804964&page=1 The original SH thread is above. If anybody knows how to make that link "click on" instead of copy/paste holler at me.
When you are creating your post, click on this  icon underneath the text box.
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Quoted:
Good shooting. What the OP done (or close to it) is really not too hard with a little practice, for those doubters. The steel turkey in this pic is about 8in from the top of the torso to the bottom. This was done with an AR, bulk ammo and a 3-9x40 Burris scope. My first exposure to AR type rifles was in the army as well, but I was shooting squirrels not long after I learned to ride a bike. http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p141/ShiftBit/range trips/turkey_ridgerunners_02272010-1.jpg Im saying what I said because XM193 is not 1.2moa ammo. |
| This is not directed at any one individual, but general observation. You will see a contrast in opinions from professionals, who have gone places and done things, know where theory and reality separate, verses the opinions of those who have not; those who spend a majority of their time behind a screen and keyboard, and just repeat what they've read or others have written. |
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thats pretty good shooting sir.
i have done similar with my sdmr build, but i was using a fixed 10 power optic. people seem to forget that xm193 is inconsistent in its accuracy from box to box. . . one box may shoot very tight, maybe twice as tight a group as the previous box in the lot. i think you got a good box my friend, and i have had a few of those good boxes myself. nice rifle. |
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Regarding discussion about M193 ammo and accuracy - for the benefit of the group. I remember reading some article about M193 testing at Aberdeen (will try to lay my hands on it). Can't vouch for the validity of such and say so up front. Anyway the article stated M193 tested 1.2 to 1.6 mean radius (MR) at 200 yards in their test fixture. Seen test fixtures like the AMU uses, never seen what they use at Aberdeen (i.e., maybe match barrel bolted down to platform or who knows). The reported Aberdeen 1.2 to 1.6 mean radius would be equal to about 1.8 MOA to 2.4 MOA (MOA = where you are using extreme spread (ES) in their test fixture. Your test fixture (i.e., your rifle against your shoulder or in your rest) might be worse or better depends.
A while back I did some Federal XM193 ammo testing and did a 10 shot group from bench rest at 100 yards with my SDMR and results were a 1.69 MOA group in my test fixture (my rifle and my rest). That 1.69 MOA I got below is on par with a estimated 1.8 MOA calculated based on the MR in the article. 
It bears mentioning that a lot of inexperience shooters don't realize is that grouping is not always 100% linear. I've actually seen better MOA results at a longer range than a shorter one happen. Can a lot of the same ammunition shoot better than others - yes. Finally, it may be on occassion possible to shoot better than ammo + rifle combo because the shooter make errors that actually improve group results. Bottom line what you saw above at 500 yards is possible. Is this 1.2 MOA result consistant and repeatable -probably not, but results were so interesting will try again. Lesson over.
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I enjoy the idea that people can shoot like this with iron sights, but the physics of it always sobers me up. And it's not just the variability of off the shelf ammo, tolerances in manufacturing of the rifle, and atmospheric considerations ... it's also the coarseness of the sights themselves.
At 500 yd., even a man-sized target becomes smaller than the apparent width of the front sight blade in your sight picture. So in sighting, it's the equivalent of centering a BB on a blade the width of your finger, while keeping it all centered (vertically and horizontally in a circle (the rear peep sight). Not that huge a deal with a high-powered scope that lets you magnify the whole scene and which operates in only one plane, but tough at 1:1 and in 3D. Then of course, you have to have the weapon zeroed for that distance, since you can't hold over without obscuring the target with your front sight. People swear it's done routinely by competitive shooters, but those guys use highly accurized rigs and precision-loaded ammo. Still, it's quite a feat to print a group like the OP posted. Not saying he's fibbing, but just expressing my healthy skepticism. If he did it, I'm really impressed. . . |
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Quoted:
Had a post awhile back for my sub-MOA SDMR build and said I would repost when I took it out past the 100 yard range. Took it out to 500 yards just using XM193 and iron sights (no optics) on a stable rest. Target was 2 pieces of high visibility orange piece of poster board stapled together on some plywood. 5 round group with good grouping for mil-spec ammo. This was the only group I fired. White tacks in holes. Maybe a little lady luck, as I know XM193 is not match grade ammo and my eyes aren't 18 anymore. <a href="http://img528.imageshack.us/i/hivis500yardsgroupm193s.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2364/hivis500yardsgroupm193s.jpg</a> BH 69 GR match is the best performer. I posted on this 5 shot group shot at 100 yards with day optic and rest over at the Hide and complete thread with build details.<a href="http://img190.imageshack.us/i/579moabluebox5shotbh69g.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/39/579moabluebox5shotbh69g.jpg</a> Here's pic of the rifle with a trijicon optic <a href="http://img534.imageshack.us/i/sdmrwide.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3596/sdmrwide.jpg</a> Here's the range and 500 yards is at the very end. Long way off. <a href="http://img209.imageshack.us/i/tiresf.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3227/tiresf.jpg</a> Could you link to the ar15.com post mentioned... I'm very curious about your rifles build specs. |
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I enjoy the idea that people can shoot like this with iron sights, but the physics of it always sobers me up. And it's not just the variability of off the shelf ammo, tolerances in manufacturing of the rifle, and atmospheric considerations ... it's also the coarseness of the sights themselves. At 500 yd., even a man-sized target becomes smaller than the apparent width of the front sight blade in your sight picture. So in sighting, it's the equivalent of centering a BB on a blade the width of your finger, while keeping it all centered (vertically and horizontally in a circle (the rear peep sight). Not that huge a deal with a high-powered scope that lets you magnify the whole scene and which operates in only one plane, but tough at 1:1 and in 3D. Then of course, you have to have the weapon zeroed for that distance, since you can't hold over without obscuring the target with your front sight. People swear it's done routinely by competitive shooters, but those guys use highly accurized rigs and precision-loaded ammo. Still, it's quite a feat to print a group like the OP posted. Not saying he's fibbing, but just expressing my healthy skepticism. If he did it, I'm really impressed. . . you make it sound harder than it is |
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There is probably not a whole lot of people on here with access to 500 yard range to really know how doable this can be with irons. My wife who shoots pistols and use to compete regularly with IDPA was able to get 1 hit of 5 shots on the 19.5" x 22" target with same ammo/rifle combination, rest and sand bags. Gents military and competitors shoot with irons out to 600 yds or longer, and militarywith rack grade M16's a2-a4's and mil-spec ammo so it can be done.
Here's a thread same topic and couple of guys with AR's posts.. High Road Iron sights at 600 |
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You shot a great group.
Shooting long range with iron sights is done regularly in competition. Doing it with M193 is something totally different. With that said, I have a few lots of M193 and M855 which shoot MOA: these are the exceptions. Shooting 300 yards and beyond instills confidence in your skills and in your rifle. 
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You shot a great group. Shooting long range with iron sights is done regularly in competition. Doing it with M193 is something totally different. With that said, I have a few lots of M193 and M855 which shoot MOA: these are the exceptions. Shooting 300 yards and beyond instills confidence in your skills and in your rifle. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/images/accuracy%20images/500%20meters%2011-14-10.jpg nice shooting btw did you win that 20? |
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First thought is to raise the BS flag but .....
Nice shoot'n. Longest we have around here is 200 and i use magified scopes but would like to try 500 sometimes with irons. I shoot handloads only doing my precision shoot'n however and my XM193 is just for tactical course shoot'n. 
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great shooting superior too. you guys look like you make some good barrels. but for the group my barrel is not made by Superior.
for all the skeptics thus far no offense intended but just putting what needs to be put out there. I can put the same post info out in front of a group here on this website and then the same to professional peers ––and usually get two completely different reactions. maybe you guys here just have to deal with a lot of phonys and just bitten, so i will give you the benefit of that doubt.
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Medcpt. I shoot regularly at longer ranges and though I don't post my targets I see what you are up against here. Folks who regularly shoot at 200 yards or less and are not very good marksman cant fathom how you / others could possibly do that well at longer range. Those who are decent marksman kind of get it and are a little more understanding. When I was a kid we used to regularly shoot soda cans at the 100 and 150 yard mark with iron sights. Couple of us boys could even get pretty regular hits.
Consistency is the key and what you have done (with all due respect) is a good shoot but not all that big a deal to myself or others. Keep up the good shooting and I look forward to other posts from you. |
| yes iron sights are greatly underestimated in terms of capability because with all the technology. we have a new generation of shooters that don't use them that much. it's your back up with that gadget breaks or battery goes dead. honestly i've gotten so weight conscience with all the gear you have to carry these days, i think i could do without the optics and get by just fine. all the stuff i see attached to ar's these days, i say to myself if you had to carry it all day or hump it up a mountain you probably wouldn't have on it. guys that i saw that did regularly didn't too. |
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We have to qualify at 500 yards, regardless of weather conditions, with iron sights in the prone position (i.e. not from a bench).
You get 10 minutes for 10 rounds on a 20x40" target. Most Marines get 10/10. Its really not that hard. This is with Lake City M855 and beat up M16A4s/M4s. Now to shrink that down to 10x10? That's saying something. To shrink it further to 5x5....I dunno. Most of my buddies and I on pre-qual days go for head shots only which is about an 8" circle. We hit it frequently, but not every time. This is with 5 MOA ammo. Thats about 26" at 500 yards. Its not the fact that the OP shot that group at 500 yards with open sights. Get in a good, repeatable position with solid cheekweld especially with a low recoiling semi auto and its easy to replicate precision. Its the ammo he was using that kinda has my WTF flying around... |
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This is not directed at any one individual, but general observation. You will see a contrast in opinions from professionals, who have gone places and done things, know where theory and reality separate, verses the opinions of those who have not; those who spend a majority of their time behind a screen and keyboard, and just repeat what they've read or others have written. Excellent shooting. Even more excellent observation. Not that I'm some pro, been anywhere, or done anything. |
| Do this... go back out with more of that same ammo and shoot more groups. I won't even insist on 10 shot groups. Just shoot, say, 5 more 5 round groups. See how many come close to 1.2 moa. Just because you luck into an extremely improbable group doesn't mean much. See what the best group you can shoot with repeatability is. |
| I don't think he has much else to prove. Especially since I do believe he has already stated that duplicating this was improbable. Some people will read this post and get the point, others will read far too much into it. Others probably won't even understand what's being discussed. |
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I don't think he has much else to prove. Especially since I do believe he has already stated that duplicating this was improbable. Some people will read this post and get the point, others will read far too much into it. Others probably won't even understand what's being discussed. I agree. That and I think much more of folks who can hit a called target at multiple distances than folks who shoot tiny groups. Medcapt will understand the importance of this. Hitting targets (the smaller the better) at different distances in random order is where the real fun starts. We usually use oranges, cans (unopened) Winchester swivel targets and 8x8 steel plates from 100 to 800 yards. One guy shoots and one spots. This also has the advantage of being much more entertaining than paper targets. I learned as much spotting as shooting over the decades. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My SDMR goes to 500 yards *Photos* (Page 1 of 2)
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