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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are My Groups Within Reason? UPDATE on Pg.2.People with CHF Daniel Defense Barrels Please Chime In (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/31/2010 10:06:51 PM EDT
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I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range)
The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? |
| Hard to say, the problem with shooting at 25 yds is it really doesn't tell you anything except that it will hit a bad guy at distances of 25 yds or less. I would imagine living in the second biggest state you should be able to find somewhere to stretch that out to 100 yds to see what the groups are there. Under 4" @ 100 yds is plenty good and gives you something to improve on. |
| Bench. I just looked it up in the archives and it seems that American Standard is 2 5/8" ammo out of a precision rig with a 24x scope and a RRA two stage trigger so I'm pretty okay with my 5.2" showing. I'll have to see how it shoots at 100yards before I can be 100% sure. |
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Don't begin to worry untill you get out and shoot at a longer range.
All the methods for shooting and siteing in at reduced distances can be a guide but there is nothing as good as actually shooting at the desired range. In other words if you want to hit pie plates at 300yards your best sure bet is to get off your ass and find a 300 yard range. As far as I have heard the ATI ammo is decent ball type ammo but like other ball ammo not something you would expect to winn matches with. I suspect that your siteing system is going to be ok at medium ranges (100 to 200 yards) but is just horribly mismatched at 25 yards. I have also found from years of shooting at a local club/range that my friends are great guys but about 85% of them can't begin to shoot 1/2 as well as they claim . I expect the reports on this site are somewhat twisted also 
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Quoted:
I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range) The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? Since you were shooting from a bench, next time, choose a target with which you can achieve a better sight picture. If you have not already done so, it will help to use either a bipod or sand bags up front and either a sand bag or a squeeze bag under the stock. This will help to delete much of the shooter's error from the equation and afford you much better groupings. |
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ.
For fun, also at 50 yards, my S&W 15-22 mounted with a PA M3 RDS, using Blazer 40 gr 22lr ammo, will consistently group at 1-1/2" and less, if I am really focused on the target. This is an old fart shooting while wearing trifocal glasses. Now, my scoped rigs are a different story. Needless to say, RDSs have their place and can prove to be quite productive, given the proper technique. |
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Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't.
Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. |
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Quoted:
Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't. Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. At that close a range do you really think better ammo is going to make a noticeable difference? I don't. |
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Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot.
Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs. 
Dave |
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CPG, I think that's quite reasonable. Personally, I need the resolution offered by magnified optics if I want any hope of printing a small group. Additionally, I need a good, solid rest. One of the ranges I frequent has high, uncomfortable benches with very limited real estate, so not only are my feet not on the floor, I can't bag the rear of the gun. This always leads to lousy groups for me. Another range I hit has nice, low benches with large table surface that afford me a great sitting platform for shooting, but they don't allow FMJ, so shooting there is always an expensive proposition and it's a much further drive. I find that I can usually compensate for a lousy trigger if I can afford to take my time, but a good trigger sure helps.
See how you do at 100 with a variety of loads to find one that your gun likes and then start worrying about group size. |
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Quoted:
I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range) The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? it shouldbe easier to shoot small groups at a distance. example, Ill shoot a 2.5" group at 50, but a 3.5" group at 100yds. maybe its just mental... but i think 25 is gonna be to close to measure groups. |
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Quoted:
Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot. Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs.
Dave someone (molon?) shot sub moa at 100yds with a 4moa rds. |
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Quoted:
Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't. Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. At that close a range do you really think better ammo is going to make a noticeable difference? I don't. Why not? .22LR match ammo makes a noticeable difference at 25 yards. In my experience scaled 25 yard targets are perfectly fine indicators of whether or not you are using good marksmanship fundamentals. 4MOA shooting at 25 yards generally translates to 4MOA shooting at 100 yards. |
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Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot. Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs.
Dave someone (molon?) shot sub moa at 100yds with a 4moa rds. I thought molon uses a machine rest for his tests. i could be wrong. |
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Quoted:
Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot. Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs.
Dave someone (molon?) shot sub moa at 100yds with a 4moa rds. Molon could probably shoot the eyes out of a fly! It can be done by someone, but my thought is, it's not a precision optic. I could make good shots with my Eotec, but it has a 1 moa dot. |
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Probably one of 3 things. You had a bad day. Really crappy ammo. You need some practice. Mind you i'm not busting balls ..... I've had days that were worse than that  This past weekend was a good one the caffeine and nicotine levels were in harmony and I shot pretty well damn shame only one other arfcomer was there to see it  |
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I've been doing so much bench shooting, I thought I'd better try free hand. I'm glad I wasn't trying to save mine or somebody elses life. I was shakey as could be. Trying to shoot free hand with a 10X scope. I need to do this every range trip. I am with you on that point. Standing, sitting, kneeling, it's all the same . . . I found it difficult to keep the front of my guns steady prior to taking a shot. . . Until, I tried a 2 point sling. The sling has helped me tremendously. I was always encourage my shooting buddies to end their sessions with some position shooting practice. As I tell my young nephew, " There ain't no benches when the Zombies are coming." |
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I'm gonna say get more practice.
I was consistently shooting 1" or less @ 25 yards with my olympic (no comments please, it was my first AR and I was uneducated at the time) 16" carbine with ball ammo after a few months of range time. With Black Hills 62 grain match ammo it was shooting 3/4" @ 100yards but that was off a rest, with me out of the picture so to speak. And no the gun didn't explode or catastrophically fail. . . but the lower to upper fit seriously left something to be desired. Sold the lower off, kept the upper, then wound up selling the upper with another leftover parts pile. |
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Quoted:
I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range) The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? My friend didnt like his DDM4 barrel couldnt shoot tight groups 5MOA with good ammo swap barrels and now it will hold 1MOA Im happy to keep ALL my rds on a paper plate at 100Y useing a rack grade M4 LMT |
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Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot. Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs.
Dave ML2 aimpoint 4moa dot ( bought 2001) 551F Eotech 1moa dot (bought 2005 ) Both on LMT M4 14.5 uppers I shoot same size groups with both from 50Y to 220Y Tin cans at the 220Y berm are fun BTW I sold my Weaver 1-3x because my groups didnt shrink |
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I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range) The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? My friend didnt like his DDM4 barrel couldnt shoot tight groups 5MOA with good ammo swap barrels and now it will hold 1MOA Im happy to keep ALL my rds on a paper plate at 100Y useing a rack grade M4 LMT This is interesting. I'll have to wait until I get my intended optic and put some good ammo down the pipe before I make that call though. I have a feeling if I call Daniel Defense they'll send me another barrel if I'm not happy. From what I've heard their CS is amazing. |
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Ok guys, it's been a while, but I finally made it out to the range to shoot some groups.
A quick reminder of the rifle's specs for you lazy types: 16" DD CHF 1/7 chrome-lined barrel LaRue freefloat handguard DPMS stock trigger system non magnified red dot adjustable between 1-10 MOA Ok, so last time I shot at 25 yards. This time I shot at 100 yards using 55gr VMAX reloads that I bought at a gunshow (I know, I know )
I switched it up and shot 5 round groups this time instead of 10 so I could have more groups. The results are as follows(sorry no pics yet, I have to run to class): Best group: 2.875" Worst group: 3.75" Is that acceptable? What are you guys getting accuracy-wise from your 1/7 twist barrels using non magnified optics? |
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Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't. Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. At that close a range do you really think better ammo is going to make a noticeable difference? I don't. I do! But thats Me 
When shooting hanguns I see a big difference . Even when shooting 7y Lite bullets shoot low & Heavy bullets shoot high With Hi power rifles its the same. A better or more accurate bullet is always better no matter if its shot at 25Y or 100Y |
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Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't. Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. I dont shoot very far with my M4/ML2 or M4/551F I have found I can nail a Tin Can at the berm 220yards (once I spot the shine )
I also shoot the same size groups with Aimpoint ML2 with 4moa dot Iffytech 551F with 1moa dot |
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Red Dots are accurate for quick shots. A 4 moa dot is still 1" at 25 yards. I suppose if you can super impose it on a 1" bulls eye, you could get them in it. And I do use red dots. Sure, you can keep them in 1.5"-2", I'm just saying it's not as easy (accurate) as cross hairs by the pure nature of the 4 moa dot. Much more chance of throwing a shot off (precision shot) than cross hairs.
Dave someone (molon?) shot sub moa at 100yds with a 4moa rds. Molon could probably shoot the eyes out of a fly! It can be done by someone, but my thought is, it's not a precision optic. I could make good shots with my Eotec, but it has a 1 moa dot. I shoot the same size groups LMT 14.5 ML2 4moa dot LMT 14.5 551F 1 moa dot I know others who report the same I use to think as you did until I bought my Iffytech 551F in 2005 and compared it to my 2001 aimpoint ML2 |
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I went to the range yesterday and shot a few ten shot groups at 25 yards (indoor range) The best I could do is 10 shots inside 1.3in at that range using a 1 MOA RDS and my crappy ass DPMS stock single stage trigger. The ammo was American Tactical SS109 62gr. The barrel was a 16'' 1/7 Daniel Defense CHF barrel. This equates to 5.2MOA (I think). My question is: Is this acceptable for an average shooter with a crappy trigger and an unmagnified sight? For the ammunition that you are using, that's not bad at all. The 62 grain American Tactical is some of the least accruate ammunition that I have ever tested. American Tactical 5.56 x 45mm 62 grain 
This M855 “clone” is charged with ball powder, has crimped and sealed primers, asphalt sealant at the case-mouth and utilizes a 62 grain SS109-type projectile. This bullet is a full-metal jacket, boat-tailed, cannelured projectile with a steel penetrator insert. 
The muzzle velocity of this load was 3077 fps with a standard deviation of 21 fps. America Tactical claims that this ammunition “is lot tested to assure less than one minute of angle” accuracy at 100 meters. 
A 10-shot group of this load fired from an AR-15 with a free-floated, 20” Colt HBAR had an extreme spread of 4.49” and a mean radius of 1.33”. 
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. |
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Red dot sights are accurate. It's a myth that they aren't. Your ammo is not the most accurate round out there. The steel penetrator isn't bonded to the lead or jacket in anyway and can often rattle around in there a little bit. Not exactly conducive to good shooting. It's not the most consistent of rounds either. Try again with something made for accuracy and see what you can do. Federal, Black Hills, Cor-Bon, etc. At that close a range do you really think better ammo is going to make a noticeable difference? I don't. Of course it will. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from 25 yards using hand-loads fired from a 20" Colt HBAR using an Aimpoint for sighting. The group was fired shooting off a front sandbag only. The group has an extreme spread of 0.307". You're not going to get that with M855/M193 clones. 
Even shooting offhand at 25 yards, the quality of ammunition will still make a difference. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from 25 yards using the same rifle/ammunition and Aimpoint sight as described above, only the shooting was done offhand. The group has an extreme spread of 1.327". 
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I was going to try to v-max rounds at the outdoor range. hopefully my 1/7 will be okay shooting the 50grainers. There is only one way to find out. The 50 grain V-MAX bullets will shoot just fine from your 1:7" twist barrel and will be a huge improvement over the American Tactical ammunition. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from an AR-15 with a 1:7" twist barrel at a distance of 100 yards. 
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I thought molon uses a machine rest for his tests. i could be wrong. I use a bench-rest, which is different than a machine rest. With a bench-rest, you still have to aim, control your breath, squeeze the trigger, follow through and keep the rifle still while doing those things. |
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Quoted: Doesn't the rest you use prevent things like cant and guarantee an exact mechanical reset?Quoted: I thought molon uses a machine rest for his tests. i could be wrong. I use a bench-rest, which is different than a machine rest. With a bench-rest, you still have to aim, control your breath, squeeze the trigger, follow through and keep the rifle still while doing those things. I've bore sighted and used a portable "steady rest" from a lathe and shot sub-minute groups... no sights on the rifle at all. (Well I used duct tape as a joke) Eh, we've had this discussion before... "Parallax free" is a term used WAY to often and using the "edge" of a laser projected dot is a practical impossibility. |
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I thought molon uses a machine rest for his tests. i could be wrong. I use a bench-rest, which is different than a machine rest. With a bench-rest, you still have to aim, control your breath, squeeze the trigger, follow through and keep the rifle still while doing those things. Doesn't the rest you use prevent things like cant and guarantee an exact mechanical reset? No. "Parallax free" is a term used WAY to often and using the "edge" of a laser projected dot is a practical impossibility. I haven't used the term "parallax free" at all. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought molon uses a machine rest for his tests. i could be wrong. I use a bench-rest, which is different than a machine rest. With a bench-rest, you still have to aim, control your breath, squeeze the trigger, follow through and keep the rifle still while doing those things. Doesn't the rest you use prevent things like cant and guarantee an exact mechanical reset? No. "Parallax free" is a term used WAY to often and using the "edge" of a laser projected dot is a practical impossibility. I haven't used the term "parallax free" at all. Re: comments in red I would have sworn I've seen pics of your ammo evals with a Sinclair rest and a female picatinny rail guide... *shrug* Like I said, you and I have differing opinions on RDS. For me, shooting groups with a red dot is a bit like brushing your teeth with a toilet brush... |
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Quoted: I would have sworn I've seen pics of your ammo evals with a Sinclair rest and a female picatinny rail guide... *shrug* Like I said, you and I have differing opinions on RDS. For me, shooting groups with a red dot is a bit like brushing your teeth with a toilet brush... Definitely different opinions then... I love shooting groups with a red dot becasue it really shows me what I'm capable of as far as my eyes and technique. Shooting groups with a 25x scope is boring. Unless you're shooting out past 400-500 yards with that scope. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are My Groups Within Reason? UPDATE on Pg.2.People with CHF Daniel Defense Barrels Please Chime In (Page 1 of 2)
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