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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are My Groups Within Reason? UPDATE on Pg.2.People with CHF Daniel Defense Barrels Please Chime In (Page 2 of 2)
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I was going to try to v-max rounds at the outdoor range. hopefully my 1/7 will be okay shooting the 50grainers. There is only one way to find out. The 50 grain V-MAX bullets will shoot just fine from your 1:7" twist barrel and will be a huge improvement over the American Tactical ammunition. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from an AR-15 with a 1:7" twist barrel at a distance of 100 yards. http://www.box.net/shared/static/9x267cj7v3.jpg What kind of optic did you use to shoot this group? |
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. Who cares about 10 shot groups? It's the first 2-3 rounds that count in real life anyways. 
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That American Tactical 62grn shit is garbage. I bought a thousand rounds of it last year thinking it would be ok. I was only shooting at 50 yards and could get under an inch with BH. Then I decided to try the American Tactical and I was all over the target. Results may vary.
I figure I'll just keep it around for SHTF. |
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Ok guys, it's been a while, but I finally made it out to the range to shoot some groups. A quick reminder of the rifle's specs for you lazy types: 16" DD CHF 1/7 chrome-lined barrel LaRue freefloat handguard DPMS stock trigger system non magnified red dot adjustable between 1-10 MOA Ok, so last time I shot at 25 yards. This time I shot at 100 yards using 55gr VMAX reloads that I bought at a gunshow (I know, I know  )
I switched it up and shot 5 round groups this time instead of 10 so I could have more groups. The results are as follows(sorry no pics yet, I have to run to class): Best group: 2.875" Worst group: 3.75" Is that acceptable? What are you guys getting accuracy-wise from your 1/7 twist barrels using non magnified optics? I would be happy with that. |
| MOA,groupsize,breathing,bench shooting..that all counts for static shooting for the tightest groups..in real life sight alignment,breathing wont matter because youll be under stress from being shot at and trying to manuever to get the guy thats trying to get you and youll be shooting un supported from offhand posistion..5" is a dead gut at 50 yds..you would have hit the bad guy..so depending on the type of shooting your doing thats a good combat shooting group..practice off hand and supported for either type of shooting though training and poractice cannot be stressed enough as only hits count in real life..like was said the first few shots usually decide the gun fight. |
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MOA,groupsize,breathing,bench shooting..that all counts for static shooting for the tightest groups..in real life sight alignment,breathing wont matter because youll be under stress from being shot at and trying to manuever to get the guy thats trying to get you and youll be shooting un supported from offhand posistion..5" is a dead gut at 50 yds..you would have hit the bad guy..so depending on the type of shooting your doing thats a good combat shooting group..practice off hand and supported for either type of shooting though training and poractice cannot be stressed enough as only hits count in real life..like was said the first few shots usually decide the gun fight. I know I know I just want to make sure that I built everything okay, and I want to test the accuracy of the barrel. I know it's not built for accuracy, but I was hoping for decent groups <2'' @100 yards with good ammo. |
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. Who cares about 10 shot groups? It's the first 2-3 rounds that count in real life anyways. For one, High Power Service Rifle shooters using AR-15s care about 10-shot groups and High Power shooting is certainly not virtual reality. The minimum string of fire in High Power consists of 10 shots and the tenth shot is just as important as the first three 2-3 shots. 
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. Who cares about 10 shot groups? It's the first 2-3 rounds that count in real life anyways. For one, High Power Service Rifle shooters using AR-15s care about 10-shot groups and High Power shooting is certainly not virtual reality. The minimum string of fire in High Power consists of 10 shots and the tenth shot is just as important as the first three 2-3 shots. And you'll have 27 more if needed 
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I was going to try to v-max rounds at the outdoor range. hopefully my 1/7 will be okay shooting the 50grainers. There is only one way to find out. The 50 grain V-MAX bullets will shoot just fine from your 1:7" twist barrel and will be a huge improvement over the American Tactical ammunition. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from an AR-15 with a 1:7" twist barrel at a distance of 100 yards. http://www.box.net/shared/static/9x267cj7v3.jpg What kind of optic did you use to shoot this group? If I recall correctly, I used my Short Dot LE . . . 
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I can't comment on how red dots affect my groups with a DD CHF barrel...but with 55gr AE223 my 14.5" DD CHF barrel consistently shoots ~4" groups at 100 yards with iron sights. I feel like better ammo and an optic would improve that. A magnified optic even moreso. If you feel there are quality control issues with your barrel talk to DD, they have very good customer service!
eta: Those are 10 shot groups. |
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Quoted: I meant real life as in shooting people, which High power has it's roots in through the DCM/CMP.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. Who cares about 10 shot groups? It's the first 2-3 rounds that count in real life anyways. For one, High Power Service Rifle shooters using AR-15s care about 10-shot groups and High Power shooting is certainly not virtual reality. The minimum string of fire in High Power consists of 10 shots and the tenth shot is just as important as the first three 2-3 shots. http://www.box.net/shared/static/xktv1y90y6.jpg ..... I shot NRA and ISU 3/4P .22 rifle for 8 years, and qualled high expert 4 years in a row in the Marines (with portions similar to High power), so I understand some of the fundamentals of marksmanship. A 10 shot group doesn't do much for me. I'm MUCH more concerned personally, what my rifle will group like 3-4 rounds at a time, over the course of different days. Especially what the first few cold rounds do. But, everyone has different needs. |
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Well there are two questions to consider in your post. 1. Should your rifle shoot better than 1.3" at 25 yards? 2. Should you be able to shoot better than 1.3" groups at 25 yards? As to the rifle, a good AR will shoot sup MOA groups, some get below 0.5 MOA. A run of the mill AR should be able to do 1.5 MOA, worse than that and you need to be looking for the cause. Could be lousy ammo, could be that you are applying substantial and inconsistent force on the handguard, which slightly bends the barrel (and is why all target ARs use a free float tube) and will send the bullets off target. As to your shooting there is simply no way to tell at this point if the accuracy problem is in the rifle, ammo, or you. We all have very different levels of ability with shooting, and as others have suggested, practice with a good coach is the best way to improve. I took my brother to the range about a month ago and was somewhat shocked to see how badly he shot my AR. It will shoot sub MOA and had a 4-16 power scope and he was shooting of sand bags. At 100 yards he was shooting perhaps 10 MOA. He is an excellent shotgun shooter but apparently a pretty lousy rifle shooter. I could shoot standing at least as good as he did off a sand bag, but he could kick my butt with a shot gun, go figure?
Get some match ammo, (of an appropriate weight for your barrel) 55 grain should work with pretty much any rifling twist rate, and see if you can find someone who is a known good shooter to see if there is a problem with the rifle. If a good shooter can shoot MOA with the gun than you know that the gun is not the problem. There is nothing so frustrating as shooting a poor accuracy gun when you are trying to learn to shoot better. I had the good fortune to learn to shoot as a child while a member of a competitive target shooting team. We had rifles that shot as well as any of us could (within a .22" circle at 25 yards). SO when I bought a Ruger Mini-14 with a scope on it some years later and took it to the range I was extremely frustrated to see that no matter how careful I was I could not shoot better than about 3MOA. If I had not had the earlier experience of knowing that I could shoot much better than that I would have thought that it was me that was the problem. I later discovered that 3MOA was about all a stock Mini-14 of that era could do. By the way I understand what you are saying about the trigger on the AR. Do yourself a huge favor and get an upgraded trigger, especially if you are trying to improve your shooting. The standard AR trigger is horrible, and it is very hard to learn proper trigger control with it. The best bang for the buck in AR triggers is probably the Rock River National Match trigger. It isn't the best trigger out there but it is cheap (a bit over $100), very simple to install (two pins, 2 pieces to install, no adjustments) and it is safe and reliable. If you have the bread get a Geissele adjustable match trigger, but it isn't necessary to shoot well. |
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Well, since the cat has been let out of the bag, so to speak, and to afford the OP as to what can be accomplished . . . My new 16" BCM BFH 16" middy will yield 1/2" to 3/4" groupings using an XPS2-0 at 50 yards. This with PMC 55 gr FMJ. I seriously doubt you were shooting 10-shot groups, like the OP was. Who cares about 10 shot groups? It's the first 2-3 rounds that count in real life anyways. For one, High Power Service Rifle shooters using AR-15s care about 10-shot groups and High Power shooting is certainly not virtual reality. The minimum string of fire in High Power consists of 10 shots and the tenth shot is just as important as the first three 2-3 shots. http://www.box.net/shared/static/xktv1y90y6.jpg ..... I meant real life as in shooting people, which High power has it's roots in through the DCM/CMP. I shot NRA and ISU 3/4P .22 rifle for 8 years, and qualled high expert 4 years in a row in the Marines (with portions similar to High power), so I understand some of the fundamentals of marksmanship. A 10 shot group doesn't do much for me. I'm MUCH more concerned personally, what my rifle will group like 3-4 rounds at a time, over the course of different days. Especially what the first few cold rounds do. But, everyone has different needs. The subject matter of this thread has nothing to do with “shooting people.” The subject matter of this thread pertains to the accuracy (technically precision) of a shooter/rifle/ammunition combination. This is a technical forum and the only thing that matters here are the facts, and the facts of the matter are that when measuring and comparing the consistency of a shooter/rifle/ammunition combination, whether shooting from a bench, slung-up in prone position, or tactical off-hand, 10-shot groups have been scientifically established to be a far better indicator of consistency than 3-4 shot groups. Your “personal concerns” are irrelevant to that. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are My Groups Within Reason? UPDATE on Pg.2.People with CHF Daniel Defense Barrels Please Chime In (Page 2 of 2)
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