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Posted: 7/31/2008 11:12:52 AM EDT
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In another thread, we're talking about bang for the buck, and how "for a few dollars more" you can go from a rifle that is "just as good as" to one that actually is . Since, by comparison, the upper is the "smart" part and the lower is the "dumb" part (i.e. a monkey can do it), if you're gonna scrimp somewhere, it probably shouldn't be on the upper. So with that in mind, please list the "best buys" you've found out there on [complete, if possible] upper assemblies from top- or near-top tier manufacturers; ones you could slap on a lower and have them run like a sewing machine. Since the other thread is [to some degree] about guns going TU in carbine courses, that is probably what we should use to define "top- or near-top tier". For example: 
Now let's see what you've got. ETA (20080809): It may seem a lot to ask, but this "What Parts Break In a Carbine Course?" thread that Pat Rogers has been doing Q&A on for about 23 pgs was the inspiration for this thread. You don't have to read the whole thread, but IMO you will be doing yourselves a disservice if you don't. This thread is supposed to be able to go hand-in-hand with that one, in order to help folks who may or may not be new to AR-pattern rifles but who are new to the training scene, pick a quality upper. If a training newb can pull it out of the box, slap it on a lower, and have every confidence that they can put thousands of rounds through it in a multi-day training course, it deserves a place here. If it can be had for $100-300 more than a "just as good as" kit gun, then it really, really deserves a place here, as these are the uppers this thread was intended for. |
$449.95 + the $130 BCG/CH Same site, also a damn good product... |
IMHO this upper by BCM is a better product then the LMT. |
I have both LMT and BCM the BCM is better and IMHO the BCM is the king of the hill as far as mil spec M4's go
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AIM CMMG Upper $500 shipped for midlength or carbine. Fire for Effect has (or had, not sure if in stock now) the same thing in a kit for $570 (including carry handle and magazine) shipped. Add a lower from Spikes and you're looking at $670. |
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Maybe I'm retarded but I think Bushmaster and Rock River Arms make great uppers and you can get a: Rock River Arms flat top A4 upper with 16" Wilson chrome-lined barrel with A2 flash hider and BCG and forged charging handle shipped to your door for $475 from PKFirearms.com or Bushmaster flat top M4 16" barrel with A2 flash hider and BCG and charging handle shipped to your door for $515 from PKFirearms.com And for only a $120 they'll throw on a YHM free-floating 4 rail handguard. |
That CMMG deal is really good! Get a flip up rear sight, lower and you're looking at a great rifle under $800. ar15sales.com also has some phenomenal deals....the deals on the Stag 2H is just soooo tempting! |
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BTT for morning crew. Also, I did say top- or near-top in my original post, so in that vein:
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Would it be too crazy to compile a list of uppers [Just common 16" Carbine] available from respected manufacturers, and perhaps categorize them (16" M4, 16" Middy, etc., then by 1:7 CL, 1:9 CL, 1:9 4140 Priced with complete BCG (also mentioning if the BCG is MPI/HPT/Shot Peened?) I'm guessing we'd just need info on the: BCM LMT Colt RRA CMMG CMT/Stag Armalite Sabre Bushmaster DPMS And have other members submit some of their finds, with source link, until the list was reasonably populated? |
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PK Firearms Sabre A4 Upper w/ Troy 10" Free Floaters, S.S. Fully Fluted 16" Midlength bbl w/ 1/8 twist, Troy Low Profile gas block, A2 Birdcage FH, Proper M4 ramped upper and barrel extension - $575 Very hard to beat this deal (also no longer available on their site) and its a FUCKING TACK DRIVERS TACK DRIVER |
Why do you think the BCM upper is better? |
I like the way you think. |
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1 better finish 2 less bur's and machine marks inside and out 3 parked under the FSB 4 proper pins used to attach the FSB 5 M4 feed ramps line up better,look better 6 customer service is the best (even if you never need it ) 7 you know it will be perfect when you open the box every time. 8 Paul's dedication to perfection,and refuseal to compermise even the slightest 9 better than Colt Quality at a bargin price 10 Jarheads get the job done right the first time  |
My feedramps, and no it doesnt bother me, my upper runs awesome and I love it.   I just see a lot of the "BCM is better" comments but no real back up. When you look at the uppers head to head they are nearly identical. So people should say why they really like them better, its the emotions involved. Everyone would rather support a small company like BCM then LMT. Plus BCM posts on these boards, plus their products are pushed hard by many vendors (not that its bad). That seems to be the real reason people say they are better. I just wish people would admit it ands top bashing LMT products like they are somehow inferior. |
BC BCG are all individually tested vs. spot checked/ % checked at LMT, IIRC. Not a huge difference between the two (slightly less money BC), but buy either with pride and know you're going to get a top notch firearm. |
I have both ,do you ? I a'm in Phoenix and I see you are in AZ why don't we do a side by side . as far as parking under the FSB and useing the right pins that is the standard and doing it the other way is shortcutting the build .you have the back up but refuse to believe it. almost Identical ain't spec . for those who know and care BCM is the choice .I a'm not bashing LMT I a'm stateing the facts as i have observed them.
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IMO if someone bought a BCM upper then it's the best upper in the whole world. I read a lot of the same posts "BCM uppers are better then LM&T uppers" Then when asked the question why are they better it's always the same stuff. They say the finish is better the pins used are better. The maching work is better. I could go on for ever. But when it's all done they still don't prove a thing about any real quality item between BCM and LM&T.  They just bought a BCM upper and thats the real deal.  And I am not taking a thing from the BCM uppers they are quality products from a quality Company.
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| those of us that have many brands,Colt,RRA ,Bushmaster,LMT,BCM,have no ax to grind . so It's not that I only own 1 brand ,and a'm talking BS . in the long run you pay your money and take your pick ,knowing the FACTS helps you make an educated choice .did anyone ever ask why LMT won't park under the FSB or use taper pins ? I bet Colt and FN would like to know . I for one would . |
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The only big name brands I'd buy which jump to mind are LMT, Colt, Sabre, Noveske, BCM. Yeah, everybody makes mistakes, but these guys have the product I'd want with very good reputation for QC and CS. (I'd also consider Denny, Charles Daly, and some other smaller names). I'm done rolling the dice trying to save a few bucks on companies which have piss-poor reputations: canted FSB, inadequate staking, bad ramps, crappy CS, etc. |
Has " LMT won't park under the FSB or use taper pins " caused a problem for the owners of their ARs? |
If the .mil doesn't care why do you? I mean they are the ones who created the standard to begin with aren't they? So if they don't care, why should anyone else? |
Not for me. |
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To get back on topic and away from "My BCM is better than your LMT" pissing contest.... PKF has Sabre Defense 14.5 1x9 w/pinned SDI A2 FH gov profile(CMV CL) barrels and CMT uppers/handguards for $375 No M4 feed ramps or 204 cut outs, but still a really good price for a quality upper IMHO. And for the record the brand bashing between LMT,BCM,Sabre, Noveske, and Colt is getting a little old. Can't we all just agree that these companies put out a product that uses quality controls and materials that are more in line with the MIL-SPEC than the other manufacturers and that they cost a little more as a result? I'm guilty (most of us are)of getting involved in these Ford v. Chevy arguments, but they really are getting old and I'm going to make an effort to avoid those threads. |
I just received 2 more LMT bcgs today and they both have been HP/MP tested, that makes a total of 3. If they only spot check, I'm one lucky guy. I love my BCM bcg too, either company makes a good bcg. |
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Who makes the more accurate barrel? I alot of people find the LMT barrel very accurate and I just want to know if the BCM barrel is similar quality. Also who supplies the BCM barrel? Also I hear LMT overbores their barrels to compensate for the thickness of the chroming. Does BCM do the same? |
Update also in first post:
ETA: All that said, I understand that this forum's name is "AR Discussions ".
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I have no complaints about my recently-purchased LMT (actually a complete carbine, but the upper is part of that). My first upper was the Adco Custom RRA Mid DD 9.0. Very accurate, decent weight with the heavy barrel turned down in diameter under the handguards. A blown primer from SA surplus sent fragments into and wrecked the Edited to fix |
| I just signed up for my first class this october. I picked up an LMT lower with Sopmod stock. Now I'm shopping for the upper. I've already made the decision to spend a little more for something nice. I think I've decided on a 16" midlength and plan on adding a 9" rail. I've been looking at the Noveske N4 light Recce basic 16" upper and the BCM 16" middy upper. BCM comes out to 765 with BCG and Troy backup sight. Noveske is 915 for the same package. Is the Noveske worth the extra scratch? |
I love mine. I bought that upper and am running it on a stag lower + stag LPK + LMT stock assembly. I like it so much, that I want another one. You know, for backup and stuff. I don't shoot my 6920 anymore, and my other AR's feel too heavy to me after handling the noveske build. It's supposed to weigh same as an m4 upper but it feels lighter then my 6920 upper (maybe its supposed to weigh the same as a 14.5 inch m4 upper?). The balance on it is awesome. If I had it to do over again I'd have 3 builds identical to the noveske light recce build, and a 6920. Instead now I've got the colt, the noveske build, and the two bastard step-children rifles. Might just have to build another one. 
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My 16" LMTs have run through a LOT of classes and have run well. There are very few uppers I would consider besides LMT for a fighting gun. Even some of the custom/semi-custom guns due to friends having issues with certain barrels, etc. from even "top tier" mfgs. Mike |
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A much-needed, post-election BTT.
I think it would also be worthwhile to mention that every upper assembly linked to thus far presently has a status of either "sold-out" or "back-ordered". ETA: Or, in the case of the CMMG upper available from AIM, has risen in price from $500 to $547, as a check on demand. |
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If the point of this topic is to buy a better upper for just a little more than the "just as good as" brands then I think we should just narrow down the companies that fit into this category
In my opinion the ones that come to mind (in no particular order) are BCM, LMT, Sabre, and perhaps a few of the CMMG uppers. To me they seem to be the only ones where you pay a "little" more to get a better upper. Some say the new S&W are better quality now too. I would include Noveske, Larue, and Colt but I think all of their uppers cost significantly more. |
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Quoted:
With regard to the highlighting, I mostly agree.
If the point of this topic is to buy a better upper for just a little more than the "just as good as" brands then I think we should just narrow down the companies that fit into this category In my opinion the ones that come to mind (in no particular order) are BCM, LMT, Sabre, and perhaps a few of the CMMG uppers. To me they seem to be the only ones where you pay a "little" more to get a better upper. Some say the new S&W are better quality now too. I would include Noveske, Larue, and Colt but I think all of their uppers cost significantly more. On the Noveske, LaRue, Colt...... yes, they generally cost "significantly" more, but there are still deals to be had. (i couched the term "significantly" in quotes because it is quite the subjective term; $100-200 is "significant" for some people, while it takes others $400-600 to consider that weapon/upper "significantly" higher) |
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Quoted: IMO if someone bought a BCM upper then it's the best upper in the whole world. I read a lot of the same posts "BCM uppers are better then LM&T uppers" Then when asked the question why are they better it's always the same stuff. They say the finish is better the pins used are better. The maching work is better. I could go on for ever. But when it's all done they still don't prove a thing about any real quality item between BCM and LM&T. They just bought a BCM upper and thats the real deal. And I am not taking a thing from the BCM uppers they are quality products from a quality Company.How about this... I own neither, I've got CMMG... BCM is better. Why would I get something that is "almost spec... but, does it really matter" when I can get something that is spec and not have to worry. CMMG isn't perfect in the spec... MPI and HPT only on the lot, and they don't shot peen the bolt as far as I know. The handguards are only single heat shield. At least CMMG uses the right pins for the FSB, and can finish the rifle before they assemble it so you don;t get nasty rust in the cracks. BCM, CMMG, LMT... I would get BCM given the choice with money not an issue. But, for me, CMMG is just right... good balance of bang for the buck. LMT charges too much for too little. |
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Price is what you pay, value is what you get.
I bought a brand new LMT upper from Denny (new Colt BCG), shot 1,100 rounds in 3 days (without cleaning....just add oil) at EAG course. It had zero malfunctions. 100% flawless performance and function. After that brief work-out, I have faith in this equipment, and am happy to comment on my experience with LMT & Colt from a function and performance viewpoint. Mechanical devices fail, it's just a matter of when and how. |
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Right now I'm looking at a RRA 16" 1/9 twist, chrome lined, light weight, flat top, middy upper. It has M4 feed ramps, well staked carrier key screws and "F" marked FSB. It was one of a special limited run. Price was $465 delivered well before the in$anity began.
Runs 100% with zero problems. I know of five other from the batch with the same results. FWIW. |
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Quoted:
I just bought a Pkfirearms Sabre Defense build (they built it) with a 16" SS medcon fluted barrel, Daniel Defense lite 10.0 rail, A2 hider. How reliable are their uppers in comparison to say BCM or LMT? 1. yeah, we built it, someone had to. 2. As long as there is still a PKFirearms, we will stand behind our product. Brett |
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Quoted:
PK Firearms Sabre A4 Upper w/ Troy 10" Free Floaters, S.S. Fully Fluted 16" Midlength bbl w/ 1/8 twist, Troy Low Profile gas block, A2 Birdcage FH, Proper M4 ramped upper and barrel extension - $575 Very hard to beat this deal (also no longer available on their site) read (Temporarily Off the website) and its a FUCKING TACK DRIVERS TACK DRIVER 1. I just like my wording better... 
2. Dude, send me some groups with ammo/optic/distance/shot count, etc. Some info. Brett |
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Quoted:
I have both LMT and BCM the BCM is better and IMHO the BCM is the king of the hill as far as mil spec M4's go Quoted:
IMHO this upper by BCM is a better product then the LMT. Going to that link yields the omnipresent "OUT OF STOCK" banner common to BCM's website. I'll take a real LMT over vaporware BCM, thanks. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have both LMT and BCM the BCM is better and IMHO the BCM is the king of the hill as far as mil spec M4's go Quoted:
IMHO this upper by BCM is a better product then the LMT. Going to that link yields the omnipresent "OUT OF STOCK" banner common to BCM's website. I'll take a real LMT over vaporware BCM, thanks. 
You obviously have no idea of what you speak? BCM? Vaporware?
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