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Posted: 10/15/2008 6:30:17 PM EST
I really should know this answer... but I haven't fired my WASR2 in almost 2 months as I was supposed to trade it away for an AR parts gun here in PA, and cleaned it to immaculate shape for the swap that never came - and haven't dirtied it up since...

Anyway - I can not recall if I had any of the "keyhole" issues that the Century Tantal owners are having.

Anyone with a WASR2 and shooting the Russian rust-away ammo having keyholes?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 6:32:37 PM EST
I have no issues with mine.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 3:55:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2008 3:57:56 AM EST by yankee43]
I'm not sure what you mean by "keyhole" issues with the Russian ammo, but if you mean that the bullets are keyholing on the target, that is exactly what it's designed to do.

5.45 ammo as you probably know, has a cavity in the nose section. This makes the bullet have a better ballistic coefficient (because it's longer) and also makes the bullet heavier in the back. When it strikes resistance, the heavier portion (rear) will transfer energy forward, causing the bullet to tumble quickly. Almost all bullets will do this, but the 5.45 will do it much faster because of the cavity.

These bullets will peform like this almost everytime on cardboard. I have seen this keyholing on paper targets on rare occasion. Usually what you will see on cardboard is that the bullet holes are somewhat oval shaped because the yaw (tumble) is just beginning when the bullet passes. I have seen near complete keyholing on cardboard a couple of times.

Wolf commerical also has the hollow cavity and it performs the same. In fact, it will do so with regularity because there is no steel penetrator, but only a lead core in the back 2/3 of the jacket, which makes it heavier in the back than military stuff, and yaws faster.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 4:48:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By yankee43:
I'm not sure what you mean by "keyhole" issues with the Russian ammo, but if you mean that the bullets are keyholing on the target, that is exactly what it's designed to do.

<snip>



I mean like this - check out the Tantal threads.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=95&t=110609

I am gonna try and get the WASR2 out to the range with the Russian ammo and see if I get these same issues.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 5:01:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2008 5:05:56 AM EST by yankee43]

Originally Posted By mac1045:

Originally Posted By yankee43:
I'm not sure what you mean by "keyhole" issues with the Russian ammo, but if you mean that the bullets are keyholing on the target, that is exactly what it's designed to do.

<snip>



I mean like this - check out the Tantal threads.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=95&t=110609

I am gonna try and get the WASR2 out to the range with the Russian ammo and see if I get these same issues.


HOLY MOLY !!

After checking out the link you posted, I've got to admit that I've never seen anything like that from a rifle before. I've owned 6 Romanian 5.45's (2-SARs, 3-Cugirs and 1-WASR2), I've had them pretty damn hot but I've never seen THAT! My rifles always shot very well. I've still got the SARs and there's never been any problem.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 5:04:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2008 5:08:51 AM EST by bloodsport2885]

Originally Posted By yankee43:
I'm not sure what you mean by "keyhole" issues with the Russian ammo, but if you mean that the bullets are keyholing on the target, that is exactly what it's designed to do.

5.45 ammo as you probably know, has a cavity in the nose section. This makes the bullet have a better ballistic coefficient (because it's longer) and also makes the bullet heavier in the back. When it strikes resistance, the heavier portion (rear) will transfer energy forward, causing the bullet to tumble quickly. Almost all bullets will do this, but the 5.45 will do it much faster because of the cavity.

These bullets will peform like this almost everytime on cardboard. I have seen this keyholing on paper targets on rare occasion. Usually what you will see on cardboard is that the bullet holes are somewhat oval shaped because the yaw (tumble) is just beginning when the bullet passes. I have seen near complete keyholing on cardboard a couple of times.

Wolf commerical also has the hollow cavity and it performs the same. In fact, it will do so with regularity because there is no steel penetrator, but only a lead core in the back 2/3 of the jacket, which makes it heavier in the back than military stuff, and yaws faster.


You actually think paper will destabilize a bullet fast enough to keyhole BEFORE the bullet passes through a sheet of paper? For the bullet to tumble it has to crush the nose cavity and no noticeable yawing will occur until the bullet passes a few inches into the body. Until the nose cavity is crushed the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air. The ammo oracle ballistics gel test on FMJ will give you an idea how bullets behave when they strike targets. FMJ does NOT yaw, tumble, or fragment until it is well INSIDE (or past in the case of paper) a target, no matter what type of cavity it might have. While it might occur sooner it will still take INCHES of penetration into tissue (much denser than paper) to equal enough turn to cause keyholes.

OP if you are seeing keyholes on paper targets it means the barrel is shot out or its the wrong twist rate (seen in Century made Tantals). Unfortunately I can't speculate on what types of barrels are being used currently on WASR2's but the problem supposedly has been taken care of by Century. If you see ANY keyholes while shooting you should send the weapon back.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 5:22:23 AM EST
I haven't noticed any issues in my Romy guns. The Tantal issue is linked to twist or wrong diameter bore, or somehting to that effect.

If your rounds are keyholing on a paper target, thats not good.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 5:25:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2008 5:28:14 AM EST by yankee43]

Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:


You actually think paper will destabilize a bullet fast enough to keyhole BEFORE the bullet passes through a sheet of paper? For the bullet to tumble it has to crush the nose cavity and no noticeable yawing will occur until the bullet passes a few inches into the body. Until the nose cavity is crushed the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air. The ammo oracle ballistics gel test will back this up.


I dont' think it. I've seen it. I've been shooting 5.45 since '97- when almost no one else was. This isn't the first time I've been scoffed at over this.

Just because you read something different, doesn't make it so. I said that I have occasionally seen it.

Bullets certainly do NOT have to be crushed or deformed in any way to tumble. You are right in that the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air, but the key word that wrote of my observations is "resistance". A bullet does not have to strike "a body" or ballistic gelatine to become destabilized. If the bullet is constructed and launched properly it will be stable until it meets RESISTANCE or is pulled down by gravity.

I've never had a keyhole on paper, but occasionally I've seen evidence of obturation on impact. I have seen keyholing on cardboard- though not often.

Link Posted: 10/16/2008 7:56:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By yankee43:

Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:


You actually think paper will destabilize a bullet fast enough to keyhole BEFORE the bullet passes through a sheet of paper? For the bullet to tumble it has to crush the nose cavity and no noticeable yawing will occur until the bullet passes a few inches into the body. Until the nose cavity is crushed the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air. The ammo oracle ballistics gel test will back this up.


I dont' think it. I've seen it. I've been shooting 5.45 since '97- when almost no one else was. This isn't the first time I've been scoffed at over this.

Just because you read something different, doesn't make it so. I said that I have occasionally seen it.

Bullets certainly do NOT have to be crushed or deformed in any way to tumble. You are right in that the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air, but the key word that wrote of my observations is "resistance". A bullet does not have to strike "a body" or ballistic gelatine to become destabilized. If the bullet is constructed and launched properly it will be stable until it meets RESISTANCE or is pulled down by gravity.

I've never had a keyhole on paper, but occasionally I've seen evidence of obturation on impact. I have seen keyholing on cardboard- though not often.



Me too, although I have never seen that happen, I know when I first got my 74 down at Knob Creek the only ammo available was the Romy stuff it seemed ok..and about a year later the Russian stuff showed up on the market and seemed much more consistent..just my .02
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 8:40:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2008 8:47:21 AM EST by bloodsport2885]

Originally Posted By yankee43:

Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:


You actually think paper will destabilize a bullet fast enough to keyhole BEFORE the bullet passes through a sheet of paper? For the bullet to tumble it has to crush the nose cavity and no noticeable yawing will occur until the bullet passes a few inches into the body. Until the nose cavity is crushed the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air. The ammo oracle ballistics gel test will back this up.


I dont' think it. I've seen it. I've been shooting 5.45 since '97- when almost no one else was. This isn't the first time I've been scoffed at over this.

Just because you read something different, doesn't make it so. I said that I have occasionally seen it.

Bullets certainly do NOT have to be crushed or deformed in any way to tumble. You are right in that the bullet should be aerodynamically stable in air, but the key word that wrote of my observations is "resistance". A bullet does not have to strike "a body" or ballistic gelatine to become destabilized. If the bullet is constructed and launched properly it will be stable until it meets RESISTANCE or is pulled down by gravity.

I've never had a keyhole on paper, but occasionally I've seen evidence of obturation on impact. I have seen keyholing on cardboard- though not often.



If the paper is causing resistant then the entrance hole in paper should be round. Never keyhole. If you are seeing keyholes it is because the bullet is tumbling BEFORE it hits paper. High-speed photography would show that the bullet requires at least some distance AFTER it strikes the outside of the target to begin to yaw, no matter what kind of tip it has. Having keyholes in a rifle target can mean only 2 things: defective ammo that has absolutely no accuracy due to tumbling in air, or you have a shot-out bore.

I'm not calling you a liar I am trying to argue that there are other explanations other than 5n7 tumbles so quickly that it leaves a keyhole in a single sheet of paper. It makes infinitely more sense to theorize that the bullet was actually tumbling BEFORE it hit the target to explain the shape it leaves.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 9:57:21 AM EST
I haven't said that I've seen it keyhole on paper. Read my posts again if you must.

What I've said is that I have SEEN (not read about) evidence of obturation on paper. Look up OBTURATION, think about what that means and then compare that to KEYHOLE. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

After taking a look at the tantal/keyhole link I said that I had NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE.

I'm not suggesting anything here about comprehension, I'm just saying that I have seen evidence of OBTURATION on paper. Disagreement is fine. Skepticism is okay too, but if you're going to argue a point, make sure it's one that someone has stated and not one you've assumed.
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 2:33:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:

<snip>

OP if you are seeing keyholes on paper targets it means the barrel is shot out or its the wrong twist rate (seen in Century made Tantals). Unfortunately I can't speculate on what types of barrels are being used currently on WASR2's but the problem supposedly has been taken care of by Century. If you see ANY keyholes while shooting you should send the weapon back.


No, I have no recollection of such keyholing with my WASR2 as seen on the Tantal link I posted. The Century Tantal owners are understandably having fits over this.

I have my WASR2 and ammo gathered for a trip to the range either after work today or tomorrow - seriously have to get re-acquanted with the rifle again!
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 5:49:05 PM EST
The WASR-2 and SAR-2 won't have any issues because they use an actual commie spec barrel.

The Tantals that have issues are the ones with US barrels. There have been some reports of the new S&W 5.45 uppers keyholing too. Apparently we can't make a proper 5.45 barrel here in the US...
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 7:53:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By yankee43:
I haven't said that I've seen it keyhole on paper. Read my posts again if you must.

What I've said is that I have SEEN (not read about) evidence of obturation on paper. Look up OBTURATION, think about what that means and then compare that to KEYHOLE. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

After taking a look at the tantal/keyhole link I said that I had NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE.

I'm not suggesting anything here about comprehension, I'm just saying that I have seen evidence of OBTURATION on paper. Disagreement is fine. Skepticism is okay too, but if you're going to argue a point, make sure it's one that someone has stated and not one you've assumed.


In your first post you implied, at least, that the 5.45 round KEYHOLING on a paper target was normal. That is not true.

Maybe in some cases there is an imperceptible amount of "obturation" evident on a paper target. But that's pretty different from what the OP was asking about and from what you originally stated.
Link Posted: 10/19/2008 5:16:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By mac1045:

<snip>

I have my WASR2 and ammo gathered for a trip to the range either after work today or tomorrow - seriously have to get re-acquanted with the rifle again!


Well finally made it to the range after a lengthy hiatus away from the WASR2 (been shooting the WASR22, WASR10. Yugo U/F) and I had NO keyhole issues whatsover.

Ran as it always did: perfectly.

Kinda feel bad for the folks who dropped the long green on their rifles and suffer issues.

Well, on second thought - no I don't.

On another board when someone asked for a suggestion on an "AK-74", I mentioned the WASR2 as being good bang for the small bucks. Of course I was jumped on by the usual WASR bashers.
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