Shortening your barrel on your AK

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shortening your barrel on your AK

Posted: 10/18/2010 9:18:55 PM EDT

I saw this project on the warriortalk forums and thought it looked pretty interesting.

It seems about the best thing you can do to have an AK which is handier and a bit lighter for close-in work without going the SBR route. Kind like an M4 with a permanent flash hider. My AK-74 has a barrel length of 18.5" including the brake. Doing this would shorten it by at least 2", maybe more if I decide to go with a flash hider like the one Manticore is coming out with.

I'm wondering what all would be involved in getting a job like this done. Presumably, you (the gunsmith) would just remove the FSB, cut the barrel, re-crown the muzzle, reattach the FSB, and that's it, right? Do you think the gun would have to be refinished in the end? How much would something like this cost me?

The big worry is how one would clean a '74 style brake if it was permanently attached. I guess that would be one more reason to go with a flash hider instead?

I live in the Houston area so if anyone knows anyone that's local and has done this sort of thing please advise.

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:12:50 AM EDT

[#1]

I wouldn't do that at all the AK is made for a 16in barrel in mind and unless its a krink I would not have a sbr.

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:27:20 AM EDT

[#2]

If you went with the new, shorter flash hider, you'd have to cut down the barrel a lesser amount than you would if you went with the AK-74 brake.

No matter how you slice it, you have to be at least 16".

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:59:25 AM EDT

[#3]

I've looked at this a number of different ways. Depending on the design of the muzzle attachment, it mat trap a lot of filth in an area you can never clean such as the expansion chamber area of tha non-removable AK74 style brake if that bothers you.

Another thing if you go with a 14mm/threaded barrel conversion you will have the pin grooves from the 24mm fsb to weld up and re-finish.

The 7.62 AK does not really suffer ballistically from an inch or two barrel loss but I worry about screwing with the main thing my AK has going for it...a perfect design with absolute reliability.

I guess with all the sbr AK's running around it doesn't matter just a mental thing on my part.

Posted: 10/19/2010 5:08:48 AM EDT

[#4]

What is involved:
1) A new (generally bolt-on) FSB, or reaming yours out to the wider contour immediately forward of the FSB.
2) Cut, crown & thread, then pin. I would reeeeaaaally search around, and see if I could find a 3" Phantom style FH. If you're doing this for practical purposes, the 74 brake is a poor choice. Edit: Didn't see what you said about Manticore- good option.

I would figure around $150-200 (cut& crown-$75; threading $75, FH + pin/weld $75, all priced individually tho' I figure a package would be cheaper, plus you figure in shop time and possibly some refinish)

Having said the above, I've pretty much broken AK mods into the following: DMR-style rifles, either the M-70 HB with different furniture to cut weight & give a decent cheek weld or receiver reinforcements/barrel tensioning mods for a "stock" AK; light carbi ne- chopping the barrel, as you want to, with a Romy or similar lightweight folder, improved sights but no other war-whore weights; or a stock AK with sight improvement and/or some sort of optic & a light.

Posted: 10/19/2010 10:35:05 AM EDT

[#5]

I dont think that removing 2 inches of barrel will hurt reliability.

Also if you are worried about staying legal and being able to clean look into adding a bulgarian krink brake. You can clean it without taking the whole unit off.

One like this.

Or just use one of the CNC warrior phantoms.

Honestly I think it would be a great project and have thought about doing it myself, but I do not have the tooling. Just be sure to pin it, or use the high temp silver solder (or both)

Do you have the link to the warrior talk thread?

Posted: 10/19/2010 11:59:15 AM EDT

[#6]

I'm doing just that on my new project. Kieth at TAC47 is doing the job, and he's in Houston to boot. As for cleaning, I have some ideas, but nothing solid as of yet. I will figure out something though. I'm leaning towards the the thought process of an old school chimney sweep type operation

It will be a few weeks before I get it back, but will post pics. I am having the lug on the gas block shaved off, makes no sense to me to have 2 in such close proximity.

ETA: 223sauce's idea is something I had thought about also. Just have yet to check the length on the the beer can vs the 74 comp. should be really close.

Posted: 10/19/2010 12:38:45 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I wouldn't do that at all the AK is made for a 16in barrel in mind and unless its a krink I would not have a sbr.

The Russians would disagree with you.

Google "AK-102", "AK-104" or "AK-105".

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:56:21 PM EDT

[#8]

I did that to one of my 7.62's, its a Romy kit I built with a tri-angle side folder. No issues at all and its one of the flatest shooting AK's I own (my AK104 is flatter).

Here is an old pic...

Posted: 10/19/2010 5:04:25 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I did that to one of my 7.62's, its a Romy kit I built with a tri-angle side folder. No issues at all and its one of the flatest shooting AK's I own (my AK104 is flatter).

Here is an old pic...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k202/BrazosCompany/DSC01998.jpg

Posted: 10/19/2010 5:21:58 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I wouldn't do that at all the AK is made for a 16in barrel in mind and unless its a krink I would not have a sbr.

What is the difference between a SBR & a Krink (Lots more $$)? Both have a Short Barrel. As long as the Headspace is correct.

I have a AK pistol except for not having a Full Stock/any type of stock (not a SBR yet) it shoots really accurate in the 40/50 yard area. Most SBRs: Krinks & pistol - SBR are very close quarter rifles. If you want to go out & beyond the 100 yard range, you should already have a standard barrel AK or folder!

Posted: 10/19/2010 5:54:36 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I did that to one of my 7.62's, its a Romy kit I built with a tri-angle side folder. No issues at all and its one of the flatest shooting AK's I own (my AK104 is flatter).

Here is an old pic...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k202/BrazosCompany/DSC01998.jpg

Can you give some detail of how you did it?

Are you using a bolt on front sight?

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:33:13 PM EDT

[#12]

[DT

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:34:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I did that to one of my 7.62's, its a Romy kit I built with a tri-angle side folder. No issues at all and its one of the flatest shooting AK's I own

Let me make sure I understand. You shortened the barrel of a 7.62 caliber AK (which has an external trajectory much like a rainbow) and thereby reducied the muzzle and external velocity, and the trajectory somehow got FLATTER? That's amazing. In fact, it defies the laws of physics!

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:46:32 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I did that to one of my 7.62's, its a Romy kit I built with a tri-angle side folder. No issues at all and its one of the flatest shooting AK's I own

Let me make sure I understand. You shortened the barrel of a 7.62 caliber AK (which has an external trajectory much like a rainbow) and thereby reducied the muzzle and external velocity, and the trajectory somehow got FLATTER? That's amazing. In fact, it defies the laws of physics!

Are you a laser printer repairman?

When you speak about a rifle shooting flat, its about recoil...not trajectory.

The shorter the barrel the higher the gas pressure that is put into the brake. More pressure in the brake makes it more effecient = less recoil.

The front sight is a 74 style, its pinned onto the barrel, and the brake is pinned and welded to the sightbase.

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:18:24 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:.

What is the difference between a SBR & a Krink (Lots more $$)? Both have a Short Barrel. As long as the Headspace is correct.

I have a AK pistol except for not having a Full Stock/any type of stock (not a SBR yet) it shoots really accurate in the 40/50 yard area. Most SBRs: Krinks & pistol - SBR are very close quarter rifles. If you want to go out & beyond the 100 yard range, you should already have a standard barrel AK or folder!

I will dispute this. My 8" krink (5.45) is extremely effective at 100+ yards on a man sized target. I think it's the round more than the rifle.

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:44:08 PM EDT

[#16]

There are better tools for a long range gunfight...but I have no problem ringing my 8 inch plate at 100 yards all day long with my 7.62 Arsenal Krink (SBR'd 107UR).

I am about 50% at 200 on a good day with the irons. No optic on it...yet.

Posted: 10/19/2010 8:17:36 PM EDT

[#17]

Nictra,

I'll definitely have to give Keith a call. I've actually met him once before and have had him in mind for smaller tasks, but I wasn't sure if he did major stuff like this.

How much did Keith quote you, if you don't mind me asking, and did he say if the rifle needs refinishing or not? The finish on my SGL is actually rather nice––it'd be hard to improve on it actually.

I like your idea of grinding off the lug on the gas block. In fact, I might have both lugs ground off––I'll never attach a bayonet anyway (and can't if I go with a flash hider instead of the '74 brake).

As far as cleaning the '74 brake...that's the big worry for me, although I do love the '74 brake in terms of reducing recoil and retaining the original look (especially for an AK-74M style rifle like the SGL-31). One idea I had is to get a chrome-lined Bulgarian brake. Then you could squirt Hoppe's in there and hopefully it would dissolve the carbon. The problem, though, is going to be cleaning the muzzle. A lot of carbon will build up there. It already does even now when I can remove the brake to clean it. However, I'm hoping it will eventually reach a state of equilibrium so that no more will build up––extra build-up will just get blown off. (Can someone else confirm this?). If it built up indefinitely, that could be bad news. I guess if worst came to worst, you could remove the brake every 3 years or so and just install a new one? Of course, cutting the tack weld might uglify the rifle, I'm not sure. I'm curious, though, how ban-states people deal with pinned/welded brakes. (Aren't they required by law to have theirs permanently affixed?).

Posted: 10/19/2010 8:18:37 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What is involved:
1) A new (generally bolt-on) FSB, or reaming yours out to the wider contour immediately forward of the FSB.
2) Cut, crown & thread, then pin. I would reeeeaaaally search around, and see if I could find a 3" Phantom style FH. If you're doing this for practical purposes, the 74 brake is a poor choice. Edit: Didn't see what you said about Manticore- good option.

Can you explain why this would be necessary? Is the outside barrel diameter larger just forward of the gas block than at the muzzle? Also, what's a "bolt-on" front sight base?

One thought I had was to get an AK-105 gas block that serves as your front sight. However, these are threaded (24mm), which is totally unnecessary given that I'm not going to be attaching a muzzle device to it (unless I'm going the SBR route, which I'm not). What would be really cool is if they made an AK-105 style gas block / front sight combo that wasn't threaded so that you could your gas block would serve as your front sight and then you could thread the end of your barrel to attach a flash hider of your choice (kind of like an M4). Of course, this would rule out the '74 brake.

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:09:12 AM EDT

[#19]

well Kieth is doing more than just cutting it and moving it back. he's also installing an underfolder on mine, so cost is going to be a bit different. He can do anything you want BTW. He built up a whole kit for me with a 5.5 side folding trunnion, and builds all kinds of cool stuff. We went out and shot one of his op-rod SBR's one. That was cool. As for build-up, I do believe it reaches a certain point. I know someone who hasn't cleaned theirs for some time and it's not a huge blob on the end. I recall the tools I was given in the Army to clean my weapon, and it was no where near enough to keep it properly cleaned. I'm sure the Russian soldiers deal with the same problem, so I don't think some buildup is a huge issue here. Rust will be your enemy, and as long as you try to do something, it should be ok. Gonna hit the hardware store and see if there aren't some type of wire wheels or something I can put on my dremel or drill that will also fit through the end of the muzzle to sweep out the inside. A can of compressed air will get the loose stuff out also. It won't be the easiest thing to do, but this build is more of a beater for me than a safe queen. Will keep you updated on what I figure out.

ETA: yes, the barrel is slightly larger near the gas block, take a look and you can see. Kieth assures me this is no prob for him.

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:26:38 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What is involved:
1) A new (generally bolt-on) FSB, or reaming yours out to the wider contour immediately forward of the FSB.
2) Cut, crown & thread, then pin. I would reeeeaaaally search around, and see if I could find a 3" Phantom style FH. If you're doing this for practical purposes, the 74 brake is a poor choice. Edit: Didn't see what you said about Manticore- good option.

Can you explain why this would be necessary? Is the outside barrel diameter larger just forward of the gas block than at the muzzle? Also, what's a "bolt-on" front sight base?

On the Romys, at least, the barrel is wider behind the FSB. ACE makes a clamp onhere, Krebs used to make a bolt-on replacement gasblock/FS integrated unit. The ACE part could be finished a little better, using dome head screws, unless they decided to recess the bolt heads on newr versions.

Posted: 10/20/2010 10:34:16 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

The front sight is a 74 style, its pinned onto the barrel, and the brake is pinned and welded to the sightbase.

Awesome dude. Thanks for the info. Might be simpler than I thought.

Posted: 10/20/2010 1:04:36 PM EDT

[#22]

Speaking of this and warrior talk. The popular option is to go with a Bolten Gas block. It has a built in sight and is not threaded so the barrel can go through the unit. Rifle Dynamics has a few pics of this on their website.

The part is around 100 bucks, not sure on labor. I will probably have my local guy, AZEX do the work if I go this route.

Posted: 10/20/2010 4:54:28 PM EDT

[#23]

So, this would put the barrel at 14in or 14.5in(-brake)?

Posted: 10/20/2010 7:51:52 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
So, this would put the barrel at 14in or 14.5in(-brake)?

I think it depends on the brake you go with. On my '74, there is a 2" gap between the back of the FSB and the front of the gas block. So that means that the most I could cut off my barrel would be 2". I think the standard AK barrel is 16.3". So that means it would be 14.3", about the same as the M4. The AK-74 style brake adds about 2.2" inches to your barrel length. So the total length with the '74 brake would be 16.5", exactly 2 inches shorter than it is now. Now if I go with something like the Manticore flash hider, it is going to add around 1.2" to your overall barrel length.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x163/mariaposton/ManticoreAKflashhider.jpg
So cutting the barrel down to 14.3" would put me at 15.5", under the legal limit. So I guess one has to decide from the start what kind of hider/brake you want and then go from there.

Posted: 10/21/2010 5:48:51 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I saw this project on the warriortalk forums and thought it looked pretty interesting.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x163/mariaposton/IMG_1678.jpg

It seems about the best thing you can do to have an AK which is handier and a bit lighter for close-in work without going the SBR route. Kind like an M4 with a permanent flash hider. My AK-74 has a barrel length of 18.5" including the brake. Doing this would shorten it by at least 2", maybe more if I decide to go with a flash hider like the one Manticore is coming out with.

I'm wondering what all would be involved in getting a job like this done. Presumably, you (the gunsmith) would just remove the FSB, cut the barrel, re-crown the muzzle, reattach the FSB, and that's it, right? Do you think the gun would have to be refinished in the end? How much would something like this cost me?

The big worry is how one would clean a '74 style brake if it was permanently attached. I guess that would be one more reason to go with a flash hider instead?

I live in the Houston area so if anyone knows anyone that's local and has done this sort of thing please advise.

Can you give us a link to were you fond this?

Posted: 10/21/2010 9:15:40 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I saw this project on the warriortalk forums and thought it looked pretty interesting.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x163/mariaposton/IMG_1678.jpg

It seems about the best thing you can do to have an AK which is handier and a bit lighter for close-in work without going the SBR route. Kind like an M4 with a permanent flash hider. My AK-74 has a barrel length of 18.5" including the brake. Doing this would shorten it by at least 2", maybe more if I decide to go with a flash hider like the one Manticore is coming out with.

I'm wondering what all would be involved in getting a job like this done. Presumably, you (the gunsmith) would just remove the FSB, cut the barrel, re-crown the muzzle, reattach the FSB, and that's it, right? Do you think the gun would have to be refinished in the end? How much would something like this cost me?

The big worry is how one would clean a '74 style brake if it was permanently attached. I guess that would be one more reason to go with a flash hider instead?

I live in the Houston area so if anyone knows anyone that's local and has done this sort of thing please advise.

Can you give us a link to were you fond this?

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=67599&page=2

Here's the thread.

Posted: 10/25/2010 11:41:30 AM EDT

[#27]

Did you decide if you were going to forward with this?

Posted: 10/25/2010 1:55:24 PM EDT

[#28]

Look down the page at the one these guys made:
Krebs Customs

Posted: 10/26/2010 6:45:39 PM EDT

[#29]

I'd like to shed some length and weight from my barrel, but I'm limited to using a brake here in CA. Currently my Saiga has a Bulgarian front sight block and the AK74 brake in 7.62x39. It feels long and heavy.

Thinking of this:

Remove the whole front sight. Replace the gas block with a Bolton gas block. Chop the barrel to 14.5", thread it 5/8 x 24 RH and perm-install the 7.62 version of the BattleComp to make 16 (assuming the 7.62 BattleComp is 1.5" –– checking on that)!

I think that would be the best configuration available here.

Posted: 10/28/2010 10:27:57 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Did you decide if you were going to forward with this?

I'm still planning to do it at some point, just waiting on some funds to do it. One thing that's holding me up is figuring out whether the whole barrel will need to be pulled out and reinstalled, and if so, if I'll need to refinish the whole rifle, which I don't want to do. The finish on my Saiga / SGL is actually pretty nice in my view.

The other decision I have to settle is which brake / flash hider to go with. I'm leaning towards the '74 brake but trying to figure out a way to clean it when it is permanently attached.

Posted: 10/29/2010 7:51:46 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did you decide if you were going to forward with this?

I'm still planning to do it at some point, just waiting on some funds to do it. One thing that's holding me up is figuring out whether the whole barrel will need to be pulled out and reinstalled, and if so, if I'll need to refinish the whole rifle, which I don't want to do. The finish on my Saiga / SGL is actually pretty nice in my view.

The other decision I have to settle is which brake / flash hider to go with. I'm leaning towards the '74 brake but trying to figure out a way to clean it when it is permanently attached.

I don't see why the barrel would hve to be pulled.

Posted: 10/29/2010 8:52:44 AM EDT

[#32]

I talked to Keith @ TAC47 about this at length last weekend when we were at the range. We were holding my rifle we are going to do this to in our hands while discussing it, and we never talked about pulling the barrel. He said minor profiling of the barrel may be necessary, but what does get done won't bother your finish. It will be hidden under your FSB. It will be another week or 2 before mine is done, having more work that just the barrel shortened. I will be sure to post pics for you. Call Keith if you haven't already and get a quote. He's always been really reasonable to me. Also, I don't think he requires $ up front, so that will give you some time to save also.

-T

Posted: 10/29/2010 10:47:42 AM EDT

[#33]

Thinking of this:

Remove the whole front sight. Replace the gas block with a Bolton gas block. Chop the barrel to 14.5", thread it 5/8 x 24 RH and perm-install the 7.62 version of the BattleComp to make 16 (assuming the 7.62 BattleComp is 1.5" –– checking on that)!

I measured my BABC and the length is 2-5/8".

Posted: 10/29/2010 5:28:09 PM EDT

[#34]

OK, please take this for what it's worth.

I first did this probably 10 years ago. I have two 7.62x39mm guns set up in this manner.
Back then 74/100 series brakes were uber cool.

Reliability is excellent.
Accuracy? They are the two most accurate AK's in this caliber I own.

BUT

the flash in low light is terrible. If its just a toy then go for it. If you are building it
for practical uses, then I do not recommend this type of build. Skip the 74/100
series brake and use a good flash suppressor.

So yes, it does work, looks cool and may enhance accuracy.
But I do not feel the trade-off is worth it with that muzzle device.

Posted: 10/29/2010 9:50:28 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I'd like to shed some length and weight from my barrel, but I'm limited to using a brake here in CA. Currently my Saiga has a Bulgarian front sight block and the AK74 brake in 7.62x39. It feels long and heavy.

Thinking of this:

Remove the whole front sight. Replace the gas block with a Bolton gas block. Chop the barrel to 14.5", thread it 5/8 x 24 RH and perm-install the 7.62 version of the BattleComp to make 16 (assuming the 7.62 BattleComp is 1.5" –– checking on that)!

I think that would be the best configuration available here.

What's the story on the Bolton gas block? Is it like an AK-100 series gas block/front sight combo without the 24 mm threading? I heard something about it being designed for a 45 degree angle gas block, not the 90 degree block that now comes standard on AKs. What would be involved installing the Bolton gas block?

Posted: 10/30/2010 4:59:49 AM EDT

[#36]

I've done this on dozens of rifles. I also have a problem with the standard '74 brake as it cannot be removed for cleaning. However those older style US made brakes that have no expansion chamber but are drilled straight through - this is the one time I have a use for those. They don't work as well as brakes, but don't trap crap when permanently attached.

If welding a cut off FSB to the gas block, consider welding it first, so that you can align it with the existing front sight, Then remove the original. USusally that makes it too short for anything but a tantal brake. The other thing I've done to help keep it aligned for welding is to cut the back part of the FSB off, particularly the area that sleeves the barrel, but still leaving a small bit. Then shape the back of the FSB to match the GB profile. Since it is still going around the barrel, vertical alignment is retained. You may have to shorten the plunger.

Anyway, the easiest is to just use the entire FSB.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/ak/akgalleryddr47foldshort.jpg

Posted: 10/30/2010 3:53:42 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
I've done this on dozens of rifles. I also have a problem with the standard '74 brake as it cannot be removed for cleaning. However those older style US made brakes that have no expansion chamber but are drilled straight through - this is the one time I have a use for those. They don't work as well as brakes, but don't trap crap when permanently attached.

If welding a cut off FSB to the gas block, consider welding it first, so that you can align it with the existing front sight, Then remove the original. USusally that makes it too short for anything but a tantal brake. The other thing I've done to help keep it aligned for welding is to cut the back part of the FSB off, particularly the area that sleeves the barrel, but still leaving a small bit. Then shape the back of the FSB to match the GB profile. Since it is still going around the barrel, vertical alignment is retained. You may have to shorten the plunger.

Anyway, the easiest is to just use the entire FSB.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/ak/akgalleryddr47foldshort.jpg

What's the US made brake you are referring to? Is this the one shown in the pic you linked? As far as the real deal AK-74 brakes go, are there any safety issues with too much carbon building up in there, or is it more a worry about it rusting out? I'm tempted to just have one welded on and then replace it every 3 yrs or so.

Posted: 10/30/2010 10:20:51 PM EDT

[#38]

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16612&cat=274&page=1

Just ran across this barrel KVAR is selling with the AK-105 style gas block / front sight. I'm curious––is there a way to remove the threaded 24mm portion just forward of the front sight base so that you're left with just the gas block / front sight base? I could then cut down the barrel to around 14.5", thread the muzzle, and add a flash hider to bring the total length to 16". Thoughts on this? It would be kind of like an AK-105 wannabe without the SBR issues and the cone FH.

Posted: 10/30/2010 11:30:26 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
I wouldn't do that at all the AK is made for a 16in barrel in mind and unless its a krink I would not have a sbr.

100 series arent, ak105, ect have 12.5 or 13"" barrels IIRC. The extra barrel length would make it reliable, just open up the gas port a little.

I wanted to do this when the big AK mag came out a few months ago, there were pics. I like the looks of the 1piece gasblock/fsb and a permed brake, but i think the other way is cheaper, plus you get an extra inch or so of sight radius with a seperate sight.

Posted: 10/31/2010 6:47:17 AM EDT

[#40]

the "real" brake and clones are a larger diameter and have a large expansion chamber in front of the baffles.

The cheaper clones are typically M14 and bored straight through with no expansion chamber. They do not work as well, but it seems they would trap a lot less gunk and so would be easier to clean.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shortening your barrel on your AK

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