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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:06:40 AM EST
These are the same sentiments echoed by Chief Thunder back in the day...I stole the post from AKfiles, where Kvar posted it originally.

take care,
Tec

--------------------------

A note to AK enthusiasts:

The passing away of the assault weapons ban has increased the number of legal configurations for these weapons. It seems as if the sky is the limit for the variations that are now possible to produce. We have noticed, for instance, that folding stocks have become popular items in the last few weeks, as well as components to manufacture AK pistols.

However we would like to caution anyone interested in manufacturing a pistol on several issues. First of all the receiver must start out as a pistol. It has never been legal to convert a rifle to a pistol. In the past there have been successful AK pistols in 7.62 and .223 calibers.

It is in the issue of caliber that a hidden danger lies. As of today no pistol has been available in 5.45mm, the cartridge of the AK-74 rifle. It has come to our attention that once a pistol is made available in 5.45mm, this cartridge will be considered a pistol cartridge. Since most, if not all, of this ammunition is imported and contains a steel core.

The BATFE has already indicated that if this happens the ammunition will be considered an illegal armor-piercing pistol cartridge. This will have the same effect that producing an AR-15 pistol in 7.62x39 had on the firearms industry a few years ago. The imported supply of inexpensive high-quality ammunition was cut off. Currently no major ammo manufacturer is producing 5.45 and this caliber would be very expensive to make here.

So we would like to encourage anyone who wishes to build an AK pistol to use calibers 7.62x39 and .223, or any established pistol calibers. We do not need to create another crisis by shooting ourselves in the foot and giving ground back to those who would like to see our good luck reversed.

Thank You.
K-Var
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:40:33 AM EST
K-Var will start to get my business, finally some corp that actually looks at the long term.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:09:15 AM EST
This is in fact what happened to the 7.62 steel core ammo from China. It is also what opened the market for better quality Russian made ammo containing a lead core. I can't begin to imagine that the market would not compensate and produce lead core ammo in 5.45 just like it did in 7.62. Certainly the prices would escalate( short term until competition drove them back down).Prices I see today for lead core ammo are as good or better than the steel core ammo was and is better ammo for the most part.

I am certain that banning 5.45 steel core is on the horizon, when the first MANUFACTURER builds an AK variant pistol in 5.45. I doubt very seriously that home builders will have significant effect to create an import ban. This of course is only my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:12:06 AM EST
I'm a bit confused here. While I'm aware of the current commercial 5.45 ammo w/steel *jacket* I'm not aware of any large quantities of steel core 5.45 ammo being imported/sold. Has someone been importing 5.45 steel core ammo and I've missed it???
Tomac
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:30:25 AM EST
No sir, you have not missed anything because there is no "military" steel CORE 5.45 in the US.

Although I do see the point here.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:35:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:46:48 AM EST
God bless K-Var for pointing this out. I'm still pissed that the steel core 7.62X39 is no longer available. I don't own a 5.45X39, but it's nice to see someone actually thinking of the implications of the laws-AS MUCH AS I DISAGREE WITH THEM!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:53:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:06:23 AM EST
Im confused....dont we have russian 7.62X39 military ammo being imported? See: www.aimsurplus.com ?

Off the top of my head there is russian, yugo, and before the norinco ban, cheetah...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:08:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:10:33 AM EST
Ah, so it only applies to steel core...and it actually has to be marked military production?

IF anyone ever makes a pistol in 7.62X54R we're all screwed
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:36:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepcreep:

Originally Posted By fook:
No sir, you have not missed anything because there is no "military" steel CORE 5.45 in the US.



WRONG!
I own some! It was brought in as Romanian, but it was really repackaged Russian.

ALSO...... I have 1st hand account of an importer bringing in 5,000,000 rnds of the real deal. This Krink pistol deal needs to die..... Let's not screw ourselves a second time!



Under what brand name did it sell, of I may ask?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:46:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:01:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:01:46 AM EST
Ok, I remember this arguement from years ago , but IIRC correctly , the law in question only effects ammo larger than .22 caliber.

5.45 , while technically .221 should still qualify as .22 caliber and not be effected.

Anyone have a link to the legislation in question ?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:55:18 AM EST
My bad.

What I should have said was there is no steel core available for sale at this time.

Jeepcreep,

I just went out to the bunker and dug out my sealed 800rd. green spam can of "Romanian" 5.45.

It is marked:
Intrac Arms International, LLC
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
Small Arms Ammunition, Made in Romania
Consumer Commodity ORM-D UN 0012
800 rounds 5.45x39mm FMF Lead core
Gross weight 10.3kg Net weight 9.3kg



I bought this at the same time the Romanian WUM-1's came in, never opened it. Same as yours ?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:16:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 12:33:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 12:33:17 PM EST by Ripcode]
Tagged -
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 1:03:01 PM EST
What's been keeping out the 5.45 steel core ammo all this time anyway? The big lot Chief Thunder had planned was the only mention I've ever heard of it. Are we sure it isn't already cut off from import??
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:08:30 PM EST
The ammo that will be coming in is not new mfg. it will be true Russian surplus. I've also heard it might be priced like 7.62x39mm. IN RANGE inc. WILL NOT be building any 5.45 pistols as well.

Troy Sellars
IN RANGE inc.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:16:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:34:20 PM EST
"Since most, if not all, of this ammunition is imported and contains a steel core. "

I appreciate there concern, but is this actually true? I don't think Wolf or Barnual 5.45 has a steel core.

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:46:01 PM EST
This proposal won't make everyone happy but I think it is the best of both worlds: why don't those folks who want a 5.45 pistol make, or have made, an Any Other Weapon. It's essentially the same as a pistol except that it has the vertical foregrip. Now that I think about it, it doesn't have to have compliance parts. These have been made over the years - I have one made by Troy Sellars - and ATF hasn't banned steel core ammo because these AOW are around. They are not pistols.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:14:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By seattlekayaker:
This proposal won't make everyone happy but I think it is the best of both worlds: why don't those folks who want a 5.45 pistol make, or have made, an Any Other Weapon. It's essentially the same as a pistol except that it has the vertical foregrip. Now that I think about it, it doesn't have to have compliance parts. These have been made over the years - I have one made by Troy Sellars - and ATF hasn't banned steel core ammo because these AOW are around. They are not pistols.



The point of a krink pistol is to have AK firepower in states where you can only get concealed carry pistol licenses (IE VA) You cant carry concealed an AOW legally under the license. I'll be happy with a 7.62 pistol since that deal was already fucked up for us.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:22:29 PM EST
Oh yeah I forgot to mention in my last post, what is the deal with what someone mentioned above about the AP pistol ammo ban not covering .22 caliber bullets. Isn't that how the .223 AP stuff is still legal to import even with .223 AR pistols being all over the place? Wouldn't the same go for 5.45?? Or is 5.56 exempted because it's our militaries surplus stuff and not the evil commies??
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:19:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 10:20:15 PM EST by Templar]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:03:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Templar:
You can all thank Olympic Arms for screwing the pooch on that one.




?????????????? Why don't you expound on this theory for us.I've never seen an Oly pistol in any chambering but 5.56. I have however seen plenty of 7.62 pistols built on Chinese AK receivers. Are you saying Oly built these?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:43:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By Templar:
You can all thank Olympic Arms for screwing the pooch on that one.




?????????????? Why don't you expound on this theory for us.I've never seen an Oly pistol in any chambering but 5.56. I have however seen plenty of 7.62 pistols built on Chinese AK receivers. Are you saying Oly built these?



Oly made a handful of their OA93 type pistols in 7.62x39 - I may be wrong, but I heard it was less than 6 guns total, and that was enough for BATF to screw us on steel core 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:10:26 AM EST
Ajer,

According to the Barnaul website, commercial "hunting" (US) offerings have different part numbers than their "military"ammo . The real military ammo is described as having the steel core, not just the jacket.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:12:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:49:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 4:54:35 AM EST by rickinvegas]

Originally Posted By Triangle-66:
Ok, I remember this arguement from years ago , but IIRC correctly , the law in question only effects ammo larger than .22 caliber.

5.45 , while technically .221 should still qualify as .22 caliber and not be effected.

Anyone have a link to the legislation in question ?



ATF link (the steel core language of the 1994 AWB was not subject to sunset)

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

According to my calculator, a 5.45 round is .214567 caliber. I don't see how it falls under the scope of this law.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:02:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:50:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:08:17 AM EST by Triangle-66]
OK, so .221 isn't .22 cal , but , .223 is ????

next point from ATF website :
ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
_________________________________________________________________________________


"Designed and intended for use in... " AND, not OR , the 5.45 round WAS NOT designed AND intended for use in a pistol. That it COULD be used in a 5.45 pistol is immaterial.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The problem with the 7.62 pistols is that the were larger that .22 cal .
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:45:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By Templar:
You can all thank Olympic Arms for screwing the pooch on that one.




?????????????? Why don't you expound on this theory for us.I've never seen an Oly pistol in any chambering but 5.56. I have however seen plenty of 7.62 pistols built on Chinese AK receivers. Are you saying Oly built these?



Oly made a handful of their OA93 type pistols in 7.62x39 - I may be wrong, but I heard it was less than 6 guns total, and that was enough for BATF to screw us on steel core 7.62x39.



If in fact Oly made a hand full, maybe 6 of these in 7.62 ( which I would like verification of, and find very doubtful due to magazine issues) and there were dozens if not hundreds of the Chi-Com units assembled here, then I would attribute the pooch screwing to the Chi-com units. And consider the attribution of the pooch screwing to Oly as slanderous and unfounded. This of course is my opinion which can be easily changed with some evidence. I don't work for or sell Oly, but I do get tired of the slanderous bullshit . If you have a personal issue with Oly ( and some here verifiably do and for good reason in my opinion) then air them. If you're just talking shit or playing the me too ,me too , look at me game, well...........thats a fucking mod or not.

That being said Kvar is saying that these pistols cost all of us access tocheap, high quality ammo. Ammo costs are damn near the lowest they have ever been(in 7.62x39) and quality is certainly NOT something the Chinese are famous for. I gladly paid a 30%+ premium for Russian production(lead core) ammo over Chinese( which can no longer be imported in any configuration, and has nothing to do with steel cores).

I think that a 50oz. pistol ban is not very far down the road with or without Krink pistols in 5.45. I also believe that SOMEBODY is going to build them and the BATF is going to respond so KVAR's statement does in fact have some virtue.

The above stated is of course nothing more than my opinion. Fell free to refute the information contained with your opinion.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:04:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Triangle-66:
OK, so .221 isn't .22 cal , but , .223 is ???? M855 is NOT an AP round! THAT is why it is legal to sell M855

next point from ATF website :
ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
_________________________________________________________________________________


"Designed and intended for use in... " AND, not OR , the 5.45 round WAS NOT designed AND intended for use in a pistol. That it COULD be used in a 5.45 pistol is immaterial.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The problem with the 7.62 pistols is that the were larger that .22 cal .

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:29:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By Templar:
You can all thank Olympic Arms for screwing the pooch on that one.




?????????????? Why don't you expound on this theory for us.I've never seen an Oly pistol in any chambering but 5.56. I have however seen plenty of 7.62 pistols built on Chinese AK receivers. Are you saying Oly built these?



Oly made a handful of their OA93 type pistols in 7.62x39 - I may be wrong, but I heard it was less than 6 guns total, and that was enough for BATF to screw us on steel core 7.62x39.



If in fact Oly made a hand full, maybe 6 of these in 7.62 ( which I would like verification of, and find very doubtful due to magazine issues) and there were dozens if not hundreds of the Chi-Com units assembled here, then I would attribute the pooch screwing to the Chi-com units. And consider the attribution of the pooch screwing to Oly as slanderous and unfounded. This of course is my opinion which can be easily changed with some evidence. I don't work for or sell Oly, but I do get tired of the slanderous bullshit . If you have a personal issue with Oly ( and some here verifiably do and for good reason in my opinion) then air them. If you're just talking shit or playing the me too ,me too , look at me game, well...........thats a fucking mod or not.

That being said Kvar is saying that these pistols cost all of us access tocheap, high quality ammo. Ammo costs are damn near the lowest they have ever been(in 7.62x39) and quality is certainly NOT something the Chinese are famous for. I gladly paid a 30%+ premium for Russian production(lead core) ammo over Chinese( which can no longer be imported in any configuration, and has nothing to do with steel cores).

I think that a 50oz. pistol ban is not very far down the road with or without Krink pistols in 5.45. I also believe that SOMEBODY is going to build them and the BATF is going to respond so KVAR's statement does in fact have some virtue.

The above stated is of course nothing more than my opinion. Fell free to refute the information contained with your opinion.



Notably, Oly made production pistols and I think that's what got the attention of the BATFE. Those Chicom jobs were more select built things and conversions and all that done by small manufacturers.

That's my theory anyway.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:31:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 9:26:31 PM EST by Templar]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:23:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 9:23:32 PM EST by shaggy]

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

Originally Posted By Templar:
You can all thank Olympic Arms for screwing the pooch on that one.




?????????????? Why don't you expound on this theory for us.I've never seen an Oly pistol in any chambering but 5.56. I have however seen plenty of 7.62 pistols built on Chinese AK receivers. Are you saying Oly built these?



Oly made a handful of their OA93 type pistols in 7.62x39 - I may be wrong, but I heard it was less than 6 guns total, and that was enough for BATF to screw us on steel core 7.62x39.



If in fact Oly made a hand full, maybe 6 of these in 7.62 ( which I would like verification of, and find very doubtful due to magazine issues) and there were dozens if not hundreds of the Chi-Com units assembled here, then I would attribute the pooch screwing to the Chi-com units. And consider the attribution of the pooch screwing to Oly as slanderous and unfounded. This of course is my opinion which can be easily changed with some evidence. I don't work for or sell Oly, but I do get tired of the slanderous bullshit . If you have a personal issue with Oly ( and some here verifiably do and for good reason in my opinion) then air them. If you're just talking shit or playing the me too ,me too , look at me game, well...........thats a fucking mod or not.

That being said Kvar is saying that these pistols cost all of us access tocheap, high quality ammo. Ammo costs are damn near the lowest they have ever been(in 7.62x39) and quality is certainly NOT something the Chinese are famous for. I gladly paid a 30%+ premium for Russian production(lead core) ammo over Chinese( which can no longer be imported in any configuration, and has nothing to do with steel cores).

I think that a 50oz. pistol ban is not very far down the road with or without Krink pistols in 5.45. I also believe that SOMEBODY is going to build them and the BATF is going to respond so KVAR's statement does in fact have some virtue.

The above stated is of course nothing more than my opinion. Fell free to refute the information contained with your opinion.



Like Templar, I was also in the business back in 93-94 as a dealer. I remember Oly’s sales literature advertising the (then) new OA-93 pistol to be available in either 5.56 or 7.62x39. If you follow the ads at subguns.com with any regularity, you would have noticed one of those few, rare OA93 pistols in 7.62x39 came up for sale a couple months ago for something in the range of $5400. Oly did produce them, not in any large numbers, but they made a 7.62x39 pistol available. You seem to be big on proof, so if you know of and can prove an AK pistol that existed back then, I’d love to hear about it. As Templar mentioned, I don’t think there were any bare AK receivers being imported or manufactured in this country back then. And why would there be? Up until the time the effects of the ’89 ban really hit the market good AK’s with all the features were cheap. It would have cost several times the cost of the host AK rifle you’d have to start with to make an AK pistol. Of course, if you can show me someone who was either making AK receivers in the US, or importing bare AK receivers which would have been suitable hosts for an AK pistol, I’d love to hear all about that too. To my knowledge, Paul Mahoney at Krinks was the first to start making a US AK receiver, and that was mid to late 90’s.

As to the ammo issue, I remember selling all my steel core 7.62x39 just before the 94 ban rolled around because I wanted to funnel every available dollar I had into the soon-to-be-banned “assault weapons”. I got almost $300 a case from another dealer who was paying primo dollars for steel core 7.62x39. He read the notice in the “FFL Newsletter” we got from BATF that the foreign supply of steel core 7.62x39 was cut-off and went right into panic buying mode for his personal supply. True, there are now other problems with getting imports from China, but that came later.

But hell, what do I know, I’m just a troll playing the “me too, me too, look at me game”.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:07:35 AM EST
I have to go to work so I will not respond in great detail .

Templar my insinuation of your being a troll, was wrong. I appologize.

I did however ask for evidence. This is not to be confused with anecdotal heresay.If you don't have any say so and I will let this die as it should.The burden of proof lies with the accuser.In this case you are accusing Oly and I am asking for some evidence to that effect.

Shaggy:
I too was "in the business" as an FFL holder at this time. This doesn't make me an expert nor you.I don't keep 10 to 12 year old sales literature so that makes my evidence nothing more than anecdotal as well. You may not have seen or heard of the AK pistols during that period but they did exist.

As I said earlier in the end Kvar's statement has some virtue.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:36:52 AM EST
where is all this 5.45X39 steel core ammo everyone is talking about?? I cant find any
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:59:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 4:12:44 AM EST by Beowulf]
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:29:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 4:46:42 AM EST by shaggy]

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:

I did however ask for evidence. This is not to be confused with anecdotal heresay.If you don't have any say so and I will let this die as it should.The burden of proof lies with the accuser.In this case you are accusing Oly and I am asking for some evidence to that effect.



This is not a court of law; I don't have access to Oly's records and I can't subpoena them simply to relieve you of the myopia you seem to be so abundantly blessed with. There is no "federal rules of internet evidence" to which we need to adhere. Both Templar and I were in the business and obviously remember the OA93 in 7.62x39. All you've done is make the wild claim that "there were dozens if not hundreds of the Chi-Com units assembled here" but can't show us anything to back it up. Tell me what receivers these were made dozens or hundreds of Chicom units were made on? Why have I never seen any for sale? Who did the conversions? Surely with dozens or hundreds of these being made before steel core 7.62x39 was banned from importation, we should have seen some floating around for sale on subguns, sturmgewehr, arfcom, etc. ...especially in the weeks and months before the ban ended when owners of pre-bans of all types have been trying to get rid of them so as not to take a total bath on their investment. I haven't seen one for sale.


Edited to add:

Read the links provided by Beowulf . It appears Mars may have put some AK pistols in the stream of commerce at the same time, or possibly even prior to the introduction of the OA93, but they obviously went undetected by BATF. However, when a large manufacturer like OLY takes out an ad in SGN, it was like a flashing neon sign for BATF. The Mars pistols may have been discovered...or they may not have. But the fact remains it was Oly who really got BATF involved.

So now tell me, big-shot, is that "unfounded"? How about "slanderous"? (to which I must add, if you think its slander, you're a dumbass The proper term is "libel".)
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:37:30 AM EST
Shaggy

You might want to read through the links I posted.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:31:16 AM EST
Interesting link on the Mars. Not to hijack the thread, but ..

If the receivers were illegally made, (no mfg. license) what is the legal status of the guns today ?

As far as not seeing them for sale, why would you ? The folks that have them want to keep them as unusual items not likley to be produced again. Or the fact they shoot them very seldom due to the soft receivers and ejectors. If you have ever seen one, the workmanship is slightly better than a Romanian AK.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:27:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Beowulf:
The ammo ban...

www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

B-West AK pistols...

www.thegunzone.com/bwest.html



Beowulf , thanks for the links. Good reading and does substantiate Templars original post.

It does indicate that 6 or 7 OA93 were produced and questions if any of them ever left Oly's hands. It also questions why BATF was hot on Oly's 6 guns with 200 of the Mars/B West guns in existence. It stops short of suggesting a personal vendetta, but its not hard to read that into it.

Templar I again appologize to you for a hasty and uncalled for remark.

Shaggy...........you're not worth the effort to respond.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:34:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By fook:
If you have ever seen one, the workmanship is slightly better than a Romanian AK.




From the looks of it Mars had a 4 year-old dremel in their markings with a dull nail in the chuck.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:42:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:49:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Templar:
Bottom line, we don't need anyone to start building a 5.45mm AK pistol.



I think the toothpaste is already out of the tube on this one.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:00:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:01:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By repub18:
where is all this 5.45X39 steel core ammo everyone is talking about?? I cant find any



does anyone know where I could get some? all the 5.45 I have seen is FMJ, SP or HP
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:41:54 PM EST
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