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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/7/2005 5:27:43 AM EDT
I have been thinking alot about the different styles of builds and the advatages/disadvantages to them. Since I had already ordered a flat BEFORE I decided to go with a complete receiver, I have decided to go ahead and complete the flat as originally planned.

I have been looking at pictures of AK's that have been put together using screws, and to tell you the truth, they look good to me. The allen head screws give the AK a more finished look than the rivets do. No doubt the reason why rivets are originally used is because of cost savings, and little to do with structual strength. Oh, I have no doubt that the rivets are ultimately stronger especially in the front trunion area, but maybe not as much as I once thought.

I like the look, and if for no better reason I will be building the flat I have using screws (Except for the rails of course). I have thought about tack welding the screws to the receiver after touquing down the screws, but decided this may be over-kill. Red Loctite should do fine. I like the idea of being able to disassemble the build once done. This way I can get the finish underneath the trigger guard too, something that concerned me living in a damp enviroment. I will be powdercoating the receiver pieces once everything is fitted.

I thought about using a combination of rivets and screws, but that would look funny. I may as well go all the way with using one or the other.

Anyway I just wanted to share my opinion on screws, and how I think they give the AK a more finished look. Have a great week guys.

E
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:54:17 AM EDT
I just completed my first screw build and am very pleased with it.
I too like the idea of being able to disassemble the rifle. On the rails I tried something a little different - something you very seldom see mentioned - brazing. I tack brazed the rails in place - not pretty but so far seems to work fine. Too soft in the long run? - hmmm I don't know but will find out -- Also - to bend my flat with no jig (bottom bends only) I scored it with a dremal - bent it - then brazed the lower bends. Top bends - I just made a spacer - put receiver into a large vice and bent over with a brass hammer.

After some thought I think on my next build I might try using screws EVEN on the rails. If .063 thick metal is used for the rails on both sides (home brew right rail - most ejector rails are already .063 so no need to home brew this rail unless you want to) they should be able to be directly tapped for 6x32 screws. Note: center support width will need to be adusted. Can you tell I like to try different things? -- if they tend to come loose after a few rounds - heck the screws can always be tacked with a mig (which I don't have - bummer - an oxy/acy torch I got ).
I like to use what tools I have AND do it all myself (if possible) - but I have to admit if $$ was no object I'd buy all the toys.

This is a great hobby!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 10:08:02 AM EDT
Don't do it man!

Screws look like dodo!

Rivets are one sign of a professionally built AK. If screws were better, Michael T would have screwed together the Abtomat. Leave the cheesy screw builds and tapco furniture to the amateurs. Don't ruin a good kit!

You can rivet properly for about $75 in tools.

(Flame suit on, BTW )
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 10:59:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By greentimber:
You can rivet properly for about $75 in tools.



or less, depending on if you have access to a bench/angle grinder and drill press.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:15:20 AM EDT
I made the jump from screws to rivets after my first build and haven't looked back. Rivets are so much faster and less stressful. You don't have to worry about a perfect demill or any of that other stuff. They are much more forgiving. My main problem with screws beside anything of strength/coming loose/breaking taps is that the heads are usually too big and it throws off the whole look of the receiver. Rivets have small heads, screw heads (even the smaller ones) stick out like sore thumbs IMO. Of course, do what you want to do and enjoy doing it. That's all that matters anyway...
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 2:09:26 PM EDT
aceface I screwed the rails on my first build. You can simply tap the rails for 6-32 screws. I have only test fired the rifle prior to finishing the receiver so I don't know if the rails will vibrate loose. I'm not too wild about the way the extra screws look but if i was looking for beauty rather than functionality I wouldn't have built an AK. Fortunately, I love to shoot rather than admire the looks of a weapon.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 2:24:55 PM EDT
I built 2 screw guns before I riveted. Nothing wrong with screws.

The screws will loosen if you don't loctite them.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 3:33:41 PM EDT by ozzy_the_nuke]
Atreides, From what I can glean from your earlier posts, you have ordered a flat, US trigger control group, US pistol grip, rivet kit, $540 ORF Krinkov kit and a fake suppressor. (See http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=82&t=74871) Now you announce that you are going to build it with screws. Is this for real?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:47:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 7:13:53 PM EDT by Atreides]

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
Atreides, From what I can glean from your earlier posts, you have ordered a flat, US trigger control group, US pistol grip, rivet kit, $540 ORF Krinkoff kit and a fake suppressor. (See http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=82&t=74871) Now you announce that you are going to build it with screws. Is this for real?




Since I had already ordered a flat BEFORE I decided to go with a complete receiver, I have decided to go ahead and complete the flat as originally planned.


You're absolutely right Oz, I have a lot of cookies invested in this puppy, and no sense in skimping on anything at this point.

Maybe I should have made things more clear. I have a US Global receiver coming in for the Krink build and yes, I have already ordered rivets for it. But BEFORE everyone talked me into using a 100% receiver I had ordered a flat kit & rails. This is EXTRA stuff that I will have laying around otherwise. I may as well try to build that flat up since it's here, and since the idea of building from scratch is what got me into this whole thing in the first place.

That said I STILL like the look of the screws. I still like the idea of being able to disassemble an AK once it's done, and not being commited to only one stock. If my screw build turns out good, which I'm hoping it will I will probably use it for a Romy build, but I won't order the Romy kit till I am done. It's NOT a matter of cost for me. Even if the screws were more expensive I would like them. Oh I'm not stupid, I understand that rivets are a sign of a well made AK receiver LOL! But the screws just look good to me.

Hope this cleared things up.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:49:02 PM EDT
Build one of THESE first if you want to use your other parts on something. Your Krink will thank you for the practice.

IMO, you're going about it very backwards. Do the Romy first, then the Krink. My Krink is still sitting waiting to be built and I can make them look pretty perfect now. Since it's not a matter of cost either, get two Romys to practice on. Do one screwed and one riveted. Also think of resale value, that screwed one isn't going be worth nearly as much as a riveted one.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:20:25 PM EDT
+1 What Squeky said

Building a Krink the way it deserves to be built takes practice and the right tools. The only thing I would put screws in would be a Romy (because Romys are fair game for anything) or an AMD-65 (because I personally think screws look good on a 65). Also keep in mind that the Krink is an underfolder and that 4 of the holes in a rear UF trunnion are in thin material (i.e., wont offer much thread engagement).
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:25:24 PM EDT
Don't do a krink as your first build. I'm almost at 10 and I'm still pondering every little nuance about a krink.

Practice on cheap Romys first. They are cheap however a great deal. They are a basic starter AK and you can make them look like anything you want.... UF, sidefolder, fixed, stupid PG front, battlefield pickup---=whatever for about $100. After you get your feet wet and get good (there is a steep learning curve) then do a krink. Better to screw up a $100 romy than a $500 krink. Take your time and do it right. The gun will only outlast you by 100 years or so.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:50:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 9:14:10 PM EDT by Atreides]
Yeah I was thinking about a kit like that Squeek.

Again, guys, all I'm gonna do with the screws is put together the EXTRA flat I have. I don't even have any other parts to put another gun together yet. All I want to do is complete this flat project, which is totally seperate from the Krinkov build. I am lucky enough to have a machine shop right behind my store and we trade services all the time. It's not a money or equiptment issue. I just want to put a flat together. I do plan on welding the rails in and all, and I will still have the option of using rivets after the flat is built...since I don't have anything to slap on it.

I actually found a Romy kit for $70.00 + shipping I was thinking about. The only problem with me getting a couple of AK's for practice is I don't intend on selling any of these. Whatever I build, I'll keep. I hear what you are saying about doing things backwards, and it does make sense, but I don't want to end up with a bunch of AK's I didn't want in the first place. Besides, just because the Romys are cheaper doesn't mean I would take any less care in attempting to build them up. I'd want to do a good job anyway regardless of what kit I used first.

My first 1911 .45 ACP build was on a Colt frame. I could have started out with a cheaper one sure, but I didn't want a cheap .45, I wanted a Colt. I did all the work myself including peening and filing the frame to custom fit the slide, shaving the back of the frame and fitting a beavertail safety, as well as hand fitting all internals and hand polishing all of the mated surfaces. Yes, I did make mistakes, and yes I did have to buy extra parts that I screwed up, but all in all I did end up with a really sweet little gun. I'm kinda hoping for the same kind of experience with the Krinkov. I have no need to rush anything and plan on doing everything to the best of my ability so that it gets done the first time. I do really appreciate the warnings and suggestions though, and know that the only reason you guys have told me such things is to save me a world of hurt. Thank you.

I just want to have fun with this build. Frustration IS part of the fun, something I know you guys understand. I know that I am not fully aware of the horrors before me on this project, but that only adds to the excitement for the build. You guys remember your first build right? That's what I am looking forward to.

I like building stuff. I have custom built cars and bikes, several 1911's some 10/22's and a bunch of AR15's too. Back in the 90's I built up a little .380 Cobray from a flat. I've restored my Dad's beat up old Marlin 336 .35 cal lever action.

I'm not saying these things as if to announce "Look at me, I'm a badass gunbuilder!" far from it gang. I totally admit that I am a newbie at this, and I totally appreciate all the help you guys have been giving me. I just wanted to let you know that I am not a totally rank beginner with no mechanical experience what so ever. I like to tinker with stuff, and my latest victim looks like it'll be this AK build.

I KNOW you guys are right about me getting some practice in. The thing is, I don't have any use for a hanful of AK builds when I'm done. Like I said, I don't plan on selling any and the only way that building a bunch of AK's would make sense for me is if I were building some for a bunch of friends.

I plan on doing this build "by the book" and save my experimentation for later AK projects. Thanks again for all the great advice, like I said, I really appreciate it alot. You can't put a dollar value on the info I have gotten here, all based on your experiences. Thanks again!

E
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:54:50 AM EDT
Very good points and post Atr. Since you said money was no issue, I just assumed you would eventually have kits flowing out your ass like the rest of us . Since you don't want tons of AKs lying around (traitor!), I see your points. I think you first time Krink guys just take us who have a bunch of builds under our belts by surprise. We started out when AMD-65's were $59.99 or $79.99 and I was so nervous about screwing that one up! (and did!). Asking newbie questions while fondling a $500 kit is just foreign to me. I do give it to you guys though, you know how to jump into things .

Building on a 100% receiver will take a lot of the headache (most of the headache) out of a build. I thought I was very mechanically inclined until I did my first build from a flat. Sheesh, every builder here should have one franken-AK in the back of their closet kept out of the public eye and away from everyone for everyone's safety. Most of these abortions are AMD-65s. I shudder to think the next era (the last era) of builders will have aborted Krinks in the closet!

Anyway, it's not all as bad as it seems. The major part of screwing a kit up lies in the receiver (as long as you don't go breaking taps off in the trunnions). I've taken my old builds apart and re-done them properly. Trash the receiver and build it on a new one no problem. I've even saved a weld build. Another weld build (my very first AMD-65 build) is beyond repair for a proper rivet build (barrel and trunnion and receiver all welded together), but would probably make another weld build for the future. It's just the receiver that's trashed.

Good luck, ask tons of questions. Measure 5 times, cut once on a $500 kit
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:17:49 PM EDT
Atreides, I think many people suggest that you start with a cheaper kit because like me they never built a gun before their first AK. While i had done some minor 'smithing I really didn't believe that it was possible to build one and have it come out alright (or even working) the first time. Since you have some experience under your belt you can do this. just remember that the kit is virtually irreplaceable . Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:11:08 PM EDT
squeky

>>We started out when AMD-65's were $59.99 or $79.99 and I<<

Dam - I always late to a party - how many years did I miss by??
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:15:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aceface:
squeky

>>We started out when AMD-65's were $59.99 or $79.99 and I<<

Dam - I always late to a party - how many years did I miss by??



About a year and a half... I have an old FAC catalog I like to look at once in a while that has the Romanian folders for $22.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:10:13 PM EDT
Thanks guys, I'm glad ya'll understand where I'm comin from.

Sorry Squeek, I never thought I would say this, but I'm getting pretty darn close to having all the guns I want, and 10 more AK's aren't on the list of those I don't have yet. Maybe 8...8 more and I'll be done, but not 10! LOL! Thanks for your input. You verified that I don't have to stick with how the gun comes out the first time, and I can go back and fix it later.

Basically, all I need to do is cut the trunion holes in the new receiver, and since I'm using the old pieces I take off as a template that shouldn't be THAT difficult to do I think. In any case, I'm looking forward to the stuff coming in.

Thanks for understanding POLYTHENEPAM. I'm not saying the build will be easy, just like I'm NOT claiming to be some sort of expert gunsmith. But I do like puzzles, and the satisfaction of making something out of nothing. It's kinda like doing bodywork: you take a rusted beatup car and with some sheetmetal shape it up here and there and make it like new again...'cept with these AK's I don't have to use body filler to smoothen out the surfaces.LOL!

I know the Krink kit will be hard to come by later and I appreciate everyones concerns. But even if I totally screw up and snap off the trunion tabs, it won't be the end of the world. I could always look for another way to fix it, possibly replacing the stock trunion. I'll be real careful not to drill through anything I'm not supposed to also.

I wish I got into this sooner, but I am afraid building AK's from scratch like this will be a thing of the past soon enough. Seems like everytime I find something fun to do it gets outlawed...
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