Posted: 8/30/2020 4:12:35 PM EDT
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I have a G17, G19 and G45 (and wanting to add a G43x and G48) all with RDS. I struggle with them quite a bit. I PERSONALLY think the iron sights are my problem on them as I am sub consciously trying to co-witness them and its causing issues. However....I grab my CZ P10..and am lights out with it. Its more natural. I am just now getting back into shooting, so im pretty sure its a training issue. BUT.... What should I do/how should I train/should I ditch the RDS altogether? |
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Remove the iron sights and get used to the red dot? I must be lucky. I had not issue switching to the RMR and no issues going from a pistol with an RMR to a pistol with iron sights. Sometimes I shoot both sight systems at the range. Sometimes different pistols, sometimes just checking/confirming the back up sights are still letting me hit where I need to hit. Don't give up. Put a red dot on the P10. |
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I just got my RMR mounted recently and I'm struggling too. Sage Dynamics on youtube has really good info on it. I think a lot of it is in the grip. He talks about if your shots are stringing horizontally it's a grip issue and vertically it's a sight picture issue. Here's some links to help on your journey. 1st 2nd 3rd |
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Originally Posted By M1A4ME: Remove the iron sights Originally Posted By thorn653: Sage Dynamics This is exactly why Aaron Cowan advocates rear iron sight forward. Iron sights serve no purpose with an MRDS except in the highly unlikely event your $400+ Trijicon RMR fails. You want to minimize the likelihood of your eyes being drawn to the iron sights. The sight radius is shorter, however, you'll find you're still proficient with the iron sights at a self-defense distance. If you think your eyes are being drawn to the iron sights, I'd remove them until you break yourself of that habit. |
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Originally Posted By wickedbeernut: +1 +1 This is exactly why Aaron Cowan advocates rear iron sight forward. Iron sights serve no purpose with an MRDS except in the highly unlikely event your $400+ Trijicon RMR fails. You want to minimize the likelihood of your eyes being drawn to the iron sights. The sight radius is shorter, however, you'll find you're still proficient with the iron sights at a self-defense distance. If you think your eyes are being drawn to the iron sights, I'd remove them until you break yourself of that habit. Originally Posted By wickedbeernut: Originally Posted By M1A4ME: Remove the iron sights Originally Posted By thorn653: Sage Dynamics This is exactly why Aaron Cowan advocates rear iron sight forward. Iron sights serve no purpose with an MRDS except in the highly unlikely event your $400+ Trijicon RMR fails. You want to minimize the likelihood of your eyes being drawn to the iron sights. The sight radius is shorter, however, you'll find you're still proficient with the iron sights at a self-defense distance. If you think your eyes are being drawn to the iron sights, I'd remove them until you break yourself of that habit. Sounds like they are all coming off then. I sold the 19 today, which I have NEVER shot a 19 well. Will remove the iron sights off the 17 and the 45 and see how things go after class this weekend. Thanks all! |
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When our officers want to start carrying a pistol RDS, they go through a 1 day conversion course (We asked for 3 days, Admin gave us 1). It’s legit buzzer-to-buzzer all day training, and for the first half of the day, we work heavily on target acquisition. It’s literally several hours of draw-aim-shoot-holster-repeat, with just variations like which hand is used, or what distance it’s from. It comes down to repetition. You have to develop the neural pathways in your brain to develop that automaticity (aka “muscle memory”). The suggestions here like ditching your irons for a bit are good, because it’ll remove that crutch. If you don’t carry the gun for duty or self defense, and you have a backup, then quite frankly you don’t need BUIS on the gun if all you’re doing is range practice and training. |
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I had the exact same issue with Glocks. My problem was two fold. 1. Never owned a Glock b/c (for me) is 17 is too large and 19 is too small. Picked up a 45. Grip angle is definitely a thing with Glocks. 2. Installed optic compatible irons (Ameriglo GL-429) and RMR before first range trip. I zeroed irons independently of RMR. My issue came with with “real” presentation. I instinctively pointed the gun way too high. This can be fixed at the expense of training but when weighed against my other HD/CCW pistols (P-10c, PPQ, VP9, M&P 2.0, SP-01, MK25, etc.), it didn’t make any sense to break familiarity with what I already own just to conform to the “Glock is best...PERIOD” crowd. That said, if I were starting out from ground zero, a case could be made for going 100% Glock for all things pistol. You’d get huge aftermarket parts/holster/milling support and the only downsides I see would be lackluster triggers (only so much can be done to a Glock style trigger) and LEGO block like ergos. |
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Originally Posted By UnaStamus: When our officers want to start carrying a pistol RDS, they go through a 1 day conversion course (We asked for 3 days, Admin gave us 1). It’s legit buzzer-to-buzzer all day training, and for the first half of the day, we work heavily on target acquisition. It’s literally several hours of draw-aim-shoot-holster-repeat, with just variations like which hand is used, or what distance it’s from. It comes down to repetition. You have to develop the neural pathways in your brain to develop that automaticity (aka “muscle memory”). The suggestions here like ditching your irons for a bit are good, because it’ll remove that crutch. If you don’t carry the gun for duty or self defense, and you have a backup, then quite frankly you don’t need BUIS on the gun if all you’re doing is range practice and training. Yep...when I switched to an RMR I would sit at my desk (home office) and practice bringing the gun up and picking up the dot while on conference calls. I can't even guess how many thousands of times I did it....eventually it started to become natural to pick up the dot without trying. |
EP429: Today's lesson - Don't provoke ARFCOM. People will see your butthole.
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Quit looking at the gun, and target focus. It can be helpful to put a piece of tape over the front of the lens, that way you can only see a good sight picture while target focused. Do your dryfire like this. It doesn't really matter sights/ no sights/ whatever, you HAVE to learn to target focus. |
| There is also a different dynamic with every pistol. What a lot of people miss is that guns tend to present high, and with RDS you have no dot to index off of like you do a front iron sight. A simple yet effective solution is to squeeze your pinky fingers downward on the grip as you extend out. If you can’t find the dot right away when you present the gun, that pinky pressure on the grip will bring the barrel downward and the dot will more often than not settle into view immediately. Pinky pressure pays dividends with pistol RDS. This is something easier to demonstrate than explain, but nevertheless it bears mentioning that your grip plays one of the biggest roles in dot acquisition. |
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Originally Posted By CSAkuklos: Quit looking at the gun, and target focus. It can be helpful to put a piece of tape over the front of the lens, that way you can only see a good sight picture while target focused. Do your dryfire like this. It doesn't really matter sights/ no sights/ whatever, you HAVE to learn to target focus. This helped me a lot when I started doing it. Stare at your target, concentrate on focusing on it. Don’t try to pick up the dot on the draw. Overlay the target with the dot. This works really well for me and I never seem to have problems finding the dot. One of the great advantages of the MRDS is the ability to have target focus. |
| I happen to checkout one of my friend's red dot that made is so much easier to focus on the dot, well in this case a chevron. Check out the Holosun 507C-X2-ACSS. It has a outer ring that shouldn't appear when fully extended.. which gives you an easier time to find the center as you shoot. They use a chevron rather than a red dot. I was very impressed by it.. enough where I am going to look at purchasing some. Note I run RMR sights on my handguns. |
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Originally Posted By awmp: "Modern Samurai Project with Scott Jedlinski (Jedi). Will teach you a shit ton!" I have been to four red dot courses, Modern Samurai has been the best! Just watching YouTube videos of his classes and of him has helped me a fair bit with picking up the dot quicker. |
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~John Adams
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Originally Posted By derek1387: I have a G17, G19 and G45 (and wanting to add a G43x and G48) all with RDS. I struggle with them quite a bit. I PERSONALLY think the iron sights are my problem on them as I am sub consciously trying to co-witness them and its causing issues. However....I grab my CZ P10..and am lights out with it. Its more natural. I am just now getting back into shooting, so im pretty sure its a training issue. BUT.... What should I do/how should I train/should I ditch the RDS altogether? After shooting "iron sighted" handguns for 38 years prior to installing my first MRDS I too struggled with trying to find the front sight instead of the dot. It is just a training issue that you can over come with time. I will say, I do NOT recommend transitioning between RDS and non-RDS handguns because you will have an issue under stress. I have rotated between Glocks with RMRs / RMRccs and HK hammer fired guns and the muscle memory (mag release button vs paddle) and "sight picture" (MRDS vs open sights) requires a significant amount of "retraining". If you're going to commit to a MRDS then fully commit. Regarding "acquiring" the dot, I found that having a more "heads up" stance helped when I started. Instead of a "head down" iso stance I was more "heads up" iso and that placed my line-of-sight above the irons and through the window. I also found that not-looking-for-the-front-sight and focusing on the target instead helps. Try heads-up and super imposing the dot on your target (the focus) instead of the front sight. Also, with a gun quadrupple checked for empty and no mag in reach while pointed in a safe direction (sorry ... the interweb cops are about), try to get at least 100 presentations in every night until the dot comes up naturally. |
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Originally Posted By CSAkuklos: Quit looking at the gun, and target focus. It can be helpful to put a piece of tape over the front of the lens, that way you can only see a good sight picture while target focused. Do your dryfire like this. It doesn't really matter sights/ no sights/ whatever, you HAVE to learn to target focus. For real world analogy, try moving a computer mouse across the screen staring at the mouse pointer. Now try it looking where one wants the mouse to go... |
The rules are simple: they lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.
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Fundamentals. For me and my wife, SIL and daughter is is a matter of going back to 1,2,3. Starting with shoulders square to the target 1- draw from holster 2-marry hands at about chest height with the pistol level and pointed at the target (not pointing to either side or up or down) 3-drive the gun straight out and up into your line of sight Careful to not "swing" the hands in an under or over arc but drive the level pistol straight at the target slightly up to you LOS. Do it over and over. Most people tend to end up with the pistol slightly pointed up so exaggerate pointing slightly down. Look at the target, don't look for the dot.  See the Red Dot EVERY Time |
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I'm probably going to get crucified for this but I'm still of the opinion that reflex sights on handguns are "not ready for prime time". That said, I'm both hopeful and optimistic that the technology will mature at which time I will happily transition. And just to be clear, I have always been early to warm up to new tech. IOW, I'm not "stuck" in the past. Never have been. Reflecting on the development and marriage of the RDS for carbines, there was literally no need for co-development of technique to bring the RDS on target vs. the iron sights. But IMO, unlike the Carbine / RDS relationship, the RDS / Handgun has been nothing but counterintuitive at this stage of its state of the art. Even more so when the dust hasn't settled on a universal mounting system (which is a typical growing pain with new technology), not to mention the open vs. closed emitter issue. If we examine the gentleman shooting in the WPS video, I would venture to say he would be just as fast and just as accurate with that pistol's iron sights as he was with the RDS. And that is part of my point in that at typical handgun ranges, is the "juice" of the RDS "worth the squeeze" (at this point in time)? Yeah it's fun to experiment and tinker on the bleeding edge of technology if one can afford to but IMO, the RDS equipped Handgun is still firmly entrenched in the novelty stage. I honestly hope it eventually bears fruit but until then, those of you who decide to dip their toe into the pool I wish you luck on your journey. |
Best Regards,
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"No such thing as tough. There's trained and untrained. Which one are you?" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"No such thing as tough. There's trained and untrained. Which one are you?" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)
Paul Howe did a noteworthy AAR on a recent RDS pistol class he did: After action review of red dot transition and instructor courses. Moral of the story was that it takes more than a weekend for most people to transition to dots... and passing CSAT pistol instructor standards isn't easy. While I am not going enthusiastically into dots, my aging eyes, interest in nightvision and precision distance pistol are pushing me into it. While 40+ yard shooting is not likely for self defense shooting, optics are valuable at 40+ yard shooting. |
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Originally Posted By derek1387: I have a G17, G19 and G45 (and wanting to add a G43x and G48) all with RDS. I struggle with them quite a bit. I PERSONALLY think the iron sights are my problem on them as I am sub consciously trying to co-witness them and its causing issues. However....I grab my CZ P10..and am lights out with it. Its more natural. I am just now getting back into shooting, so im pretty sure its a training issue. BUT.... What should I do/how should I train/should I ditch the RDS altogether? So how is it going a few years later? What has worked? What has not worked? What has made little or no impact? |
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Tom Sawyer.
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"If The Rules brought us to this, what use are they?"