Don't post in this section ever really, but I just found an article on this subject and I thought I'd post up the link.

I am getting my first scope soon and was reading up on understanding scopes and mil dots, and this really broke it down and made it easy to understand.

Hope this will help some others like it did for me.

Mil Dot Range Estimation

its "ok" for know object sizes... , but things like people, that can be "any size" its
pretty iffy... and even on know object sizes its pretty iffy... example, at the last sniper shoot i went to, we were gived the target size, and had to mill to get distance..

Second on the LRF! I just finished a precision rifle class yesterday and UKD was brutal for everyone. I'll just say that I didn't do as well as I hoped to.

Guess I'll have to do it over.


Did go 7/7 on the night shoot!

A lot of it comes down to having a reticle that is designed for milling.  If you have a basic full mil dot reticle, it can be a bit more difficult.  My Leupold has the TMR reticle and the last mil of each axis is broken down into .2 mil hash marks.  Others will have all the way down to .1mil marks.  

The other big part of any milling exercise for precision is to get a good steady measurement.  If you are not stable or if you are not milling it straight between the hashmarks it can very easily make a difference of .2 mil or more.  As an example from the same class that Humongo took last weekend, there were two targets that were the same size and they were ranged .2 mil apart.  This was the difference between 570 and 660 yards to target.  If you did not get a steady straight accurate measurement there is no way to make that shot.  

Laser Range Finders are very cool....especially the one that Mike had....$$$$, but in most precision competitions that have UKD portions to the COF they are not allowed.  As with anything, practice makes things come easier.  I had been exposed to limited amounts of UKD estimation in the past and with some training and practice last weekend it really came together for me. Not perfect, but 9/10 with 8 first round hits.

The Capn'

You were pretty impressive.

I'll second the need for steady measurements. I took some Dayquil Saturday and had a lot of pulse when I was trying to mil. I don't know how anyone can get reliable measurements with a straight mil-dot optic.

I suggest reading up here.


A lot of good info.

Here is a training set that fits in your data book and teaches you how to do it.  Gives you actual drills to practice and conduct and master ranging in any open area and field.

Take a look and It will help solve your ranging issues.

Range Estimation Training Set

The "Shooter Ready" Mil Simulator is a fun easy tutorial on learning Mil-Dot system. It was $50 well spent, all my kids can get accurate readings & shots off Its just another video game to them.

using a person as your mil dot range estimation is ridiculous and will never result in an accurate range at all. I have no idea why it is ever suggested anywhere by anyone. OLR is on the money like usual.



personally the entire workup that I go through from the moment I get behind my scope and take a peek downrange and then glance over to my data book/mil dot master, calculate my dope etc. everything up to the moment im ready to break the shot, is both incredibly fun an very fuffilling for me. Its something im very happy I began to take seriously and study way back whenever.

More likely than not people were mil'ing their targets wrong. If everything else is "hard" information they either didn't know the formula correctly or they mil'd wrong. Usually it's the latter I've found.

It comes down to training and practice. I've never had a problem using standard mildots. In fact, ranging should be the easy part for most people compared to making adjustments for wind.

I'll have to disagree with you on that and say you are completely wrong. Overseas, half the time all we had to range was personnel and it didn't ever present a noticeable problem until you start getting out past 600 meters, even then it wasn't difficult until 800. Again, it comes down to training and experience . Heck, we even used binos to range and they are a lot less accurate than the scope. A little research and intel will give you loads of good info to use on ranging personnel in different areas/countries.

Mil Dot Master...get yourself one if you are going to play around with range estimation using mil-dots.  Get familiar and be able to do in a pinch the math involved as well, it will help you get better.  Mil-Dots for range estimation to me are fun.  We hit an UKD range and range using mil-dots, then verify with the LRF for accuracy and practice.  Keep in mind too that not all scopes have an accurate set of dots.  When I get a new scope I will verify the dots are 3.6 inches apart at 100 yards (verified) just to ensure the accuracy of the scope. Do this by using a dowel or pole set at 100 yards with highly visible marks on it set 3.6 inches apart.  The more you know and trust your gear, the better you will be at accurate ranging.

I knew the second I scrolled down and saw your avatar next to my quote that this was going to be your response, which is perfectly reasonable and possible I agreee. however the fact is we are looking at this from two different perspectives. Yes, in Country where your playing for keeps and  you to make good hits COM to kill hadji before he is able to send rounds back your way 4,5 even 7 inches at 400-600m is still close enough to find your way to COM after a handful of shots or less.



Your talking apples to oranges here though. at 400m im not going to be spending time milling my target, calculating my drop in clicks, pushing for wind, pulling out the kestral to get a mean density altitude etc. etc. Im gonna look through the bdc of my acog which is already set up for man sized targets center up the T and start shooting.



I was referring specifically to either a sniper who might already be set up in a hide somewhere up in a building who already has a range card drawn up for his area of responsibility, and is going to be taking the type of shots where there is both the time and the need for a whiz wheel or  mildot master to have to come into play if they are hoping to get good hits right off the bat.



either that or more realistically guys shooting for score on unknown distance ranges like at the top sniper comp or teh like.





That being said your not being honest about your criticism of my remarks or your simply exaggerating (very possibly unknowingly) the distances that you guys were actually engaging bad guys. Because the math very simply does not lie.



at 600m it is completely impossible even with excellent glass to be able to somehow gauge the height of a hadji who is just standing around holding his dick. Whether he was 5'6" or 6'3" you woudl have absolutely no way of knowing whatsoever. those few inches alone will lead to a margin of ever ~+/- 100m... so good luck with that.



again due respect but the math is the math. and since height of a random person is almost completely arbitrary it perfectly understandable that you would be able to glass them with binocs since as I showed earlier milling them is of very little use. good old natural intuation is going to be the most accurate for of range estimation at that point so the type of glass means little.



 

I do this with all my scopes as well. also make sure to walk off the distance by hand when doing this. a rangefinder will tend to introduce to large an additional margin of error.



I don't bother going all the way out to teh range to do this so a while ago I went out and bought one of those measuring wheels from home depot, then proceeded to walk off the distance on a dead end industrial street, and mark both ends with orange spray paint and use that from then on.