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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:23:54 PM EDT
I know this has been done here, but not for awhile it seems.

Looking at:

WOA 3-gun barrel, 18in MK2.3 (37oz) Intermediate gas, 1/8 twist, $289
Rainier Ultra Match Mod2 18in fluted, Rifle gas, 1/7.5 twist, $400

Both 416R Stainless, Both .223Wylde chamber.  

WOA is a beautiful tapered contour; Ultramatch is a pretty deeply fluted match contour, very similar weight.

WOA is a Wilson blank, button rifled, then the iconic champion John Holliger sprinkles magic dust on it.

Rainier is most likely a cut rifled blank, seems likely to be Rock Creek but that is some sort of secret, not sure who chambers/finishes/flutes it.

Having owned a Krieger that was a true .5moa shooter, I am somewhat inclined toward a cut rifled barrel.  However, WOA/Holliger have been revered here and elsewhere for decades.

I'm less concerned about cost difference and more concerned about this question:  Which barrel is MOST LIKELY to have me working to get to .5moa, rather than working to stay below 1moa?

I know either is a gamble, just trying to get some data, however anecdotal, to help me place my bet.  thanks.

Link Posted: 12/28/2021 7:18:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Both will likely be a good barrel.

I’m a huge fan of the Rainier Match/Ultramatch barrels. I’ve yet to have a bad one.

The Ultramatch barrels are not Rock Creek cut rifling blanks. RA won’t disclose who they use, but a great source revealed who they were using awhile back, and it wasn’t Rock Creek. It’s not a cut rifling blank either. Even when they did use Rock Creek, they used their button rifled barrels. The “supposed” blank is a high quality button rifled blank. My 2 examples have been very well finished with no crazy machining marks from the rifling process.

I’ve had 2 of the Ultramatch Mod 2 barrels, both were 1:7.5t 224Valkyrie barrels and both are hammers. I also have the WOA 224Valkyrie barrels and they shoot good as well, but not quite as good as the Ultramatch. I know that’s not a direct comparison for the 223wylde, but I suppose the overall assessment is both barrels are quality and will be excellent shooters with a well cut chamber, with the Ultramatch possibly being able to get marginally better groups.

If you really want a consistent sub half moa shooter with little to chance of a dud, you may need to step up to a WOP Krieger/Bartlein, Compass Lake, Craddock Precision or Keystone Accuracy barrel. If you are okay with groups in the .4-.7moa range, either the WOA or Rainier should get the job done.
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 6:27:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Outstanding thank you.
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 12:17:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol] [#3]
I don't buy fluted barrels because they don't improve accuracy and I don't need the "additional cooling".

Fluting increases the price significantly with zero improvement in performance.

Virtually all stainless steel match barrels from top manufacturers are excellent nowadays. I have most of the top tier barrels and they all print under 1 moa with match ammo, specifically Sierra Match King bullets. If you think M193/M855 will shoot better from premium barrel you are going to be disappointed.

A great test of your current rack grade rifles is to clean them thoroughly and try Federal GMM ammo to see how they shoot. Most people are shocked at how accurate their generic rifles are using quality ammo. 1.25 to 1.50" groups are the norm with some rack grade rifles shooting match ammo under 1 moa.

The following barrels have been stellar, and I would buy them again:

White Oak Armament
Compass Lake Engineering
Shilen
Lothar-Walther
Lilja
Noveske
Rainier Ultra
Wilson Combat
Rock River Arms
Krieger
Bartlein
Douglas

Link Posted: 12/29/2021 12:26:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Some of the barrels listed above cost half the price of premium barrels, i.e. Krieger or Bartlein. Noveske barrels seem expensive, but when you consider they provide a Vltor gas block ($55) and pin it in place ($55) with a free gas tube ($10) their prices fall into line.

Sometimes quality barrels get sold for a discount because of a manufacturing error or blemish. I purchased three Lothar-Walther 16" mid-gas barrels for only $120 each because they cut the gas block shoulder back 1" too far. I used clamping Vltor gas blocks which allowed me to secure the gas block where needed.

Their mistake in no way diminished the usefulness of the barrels.
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 12:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister] [#5]
We're in an era (at least the last twenty or thirty years) of REALLY good barrel blanks, especially cut-rifled but more buttoned barrels as well.

I'd add Satern (cut-rifled) to the above list with Criterion, Liberty, Green Mountain, and Roscoe for good buttoned barrels and blanks.

In the past I believe Rainier was using Schuetzen Gun Works for their Ultra-Match blanks.  Noveske used Pac-Nors.

The nice thing about John Holliger (White Oak) and Frank White (Compass Lake) is they offer a turned and finished barrel for you based on three or four different blanks and manufacturers.  John Scandale (in Pennsylvania for east coasters) is also a good guy, as well as several others who do National Match AR/M16s for Camp Perry shooters.

Where you gain with a machinist doing your barrel is he's specifically doing yours -- vice dropping it in a CNC, hitting a button, and doing a batch (feeding it into a hopper with a few hundred others this week).  Not saying that process doesn't make a good barrel -- just the odds of a guy doing yours is higher you're going to get what you're expecting.
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 12:55:41 PM EDT
[#6]
I love my old Ranier Ultramatch.  It's a great SPR barrel that balances well even at 18" length.

Mine is a Shilen barrel.  That was back quite some time ago when they'd tell you, in print, who provided the blanks.

No idea who provides them now.
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 4:46:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Thank you guys for some great info.

thoughts on Wilson blanks?
Link Posted: 12/29/2021 6:14:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sinister:

I'd add Satern (cut-rifled) to the above list with Criterion, Liberty, Green Mountain, and Roscoe for good buttoned barrels and blanks.

In the past I believe Rainier was using Schuetzen Gun Works for their Ultra-Match blanks.  Noveske used Pac-Nors.
View Quote


I know 2 of my Ultramatch barrels were Shilen blanks, from back around 2013. From everything I’ve read, the current Ultramatch barrels are coming from Wisconsin, and are included in your list above. The finishing/chambering is done by a shop in TN, or was within the past few years.
Link Posted: 1/3/2022 6:26:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:


I know 2 of my Ultramatch barrels were Shilen blanks, from back around 2013. From everything I’ve read, the current Ultramatch barrels are coming from Wisconsin, and are included in your list above. The finishing/chambering is done by a shop in TN, or was within the past few years.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Originally Posted By Sinister:

I'd add Satern (cut-rifled) to the above list with Criterion, Liberty, Green Mountain, and Roscoe for good buttoned barrels and blanks.

In the past I believe Rainier was using Schuetzen Gun Works for their Ultra-Match blanks.  Noveske used Pac-Nors.


I know 2 of my Ultramatch barrels were Shilen blanks, from back around 2013. From everything I’ve read, the current Ultramatch barrels are coming from Wisconsin, and are included in your list above. The finishing/chambering is done by a shop in TN, or was within the past few years.


Wisconsin doesn’t narrow it down much lol.  Wisconsin is a precision barrel Meca. It’s probably easier to count who isn’t in WI.

Obermyer Bartlien, Brux Muller Works and Krieger who only do cut rifled barrels to the best of my understanding
Criterion does button and is in WI. I believe they also chamber their barrel.
Rock Creek does both cut and button. Not sure if they chamber in house for any volume.
Am I forgetting any other Wisconsin based barrel makers ?  
 Bottom line is both the WOA and Ranier are both proven. Not sure about WOA but Ranier claims a satisfaction guarantee.  
I have a cheaper 16in select Ranier that constantly shoots sub moa. Those are under $200 for what that’s worth.

No idea who all is in Tennessee that spins up blanks. I know Southern Precision aka Bugholes is TN.  Those guys are awesome. One of my rifles is there now getting a new tube.  


Link Posted: 1/3/2022 6:43:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mc556:


Wisconsin doesn’t narrow it down much lol.  Wisconsin is a precision barrel Meca. It’s probably easier to count who isn’t in WI.

No idea who all is in Tennessee that spins up blanks. I know Southern Precision aka Bugholes is TN.  Those guys are awesome. One of my rifles is there now getting a new tube.  


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mc556:
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Originally Posted By Sinister:

I'd add Satern (cut-rifled) to the above list with Criterion, Liberty, Green Mountain, and Roscoe for good buttoned barrels and blanks.

In the past I believe Rainier was using Schuetzen Gun Works for their Ultra-Match blanks.  Noveske used Pac-Nors.


I know 2 of my Ultramatch barrels were Shilen blanks, from back around 2013. From everything I’ve read, the current Ultramatch barrels are coming from Wisconsin, and are included in your list above. The finishing/chambering is done by a shop in TN, or was within the past few years.


Wisconsin doesn’t narrow it down much lol.  Wisconsin is a precision barrel Meca. It’s probably easier to count who isn’t in WI.

No idea who all is in Tennessee that spins up blanks. I know Southern Precision aka Bugholes is TN.  Those guys are awesome. One of my rifles is there now getting a new tube.  




Wisconsin and included in his list….

Elemental Industries, Craddock Precision and a few others are in TN.

Greg does great work. You’ll be happy with your build. You also hit the main point; both WOA and RA are proven commodities and turn out a good barrel.
Link Posted: 1/3/2022 7:23:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:


Wisconsin and included in his list….

Elemental Industries, Craddock Precision and a few others are in TN.

Greg does great work. You’ll be happy with your build. You also hit the main point; both WOA and RA are proven commodities and turn out a good barrel.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Originally Posted By mc556:
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Originally Posted By Sinister:

I'd add Satern (cut-rifled) to the above list with Criterion, Liberty, Green Mountain, and Roscoe for good buttoned barrels and blanks.

In the past I believe Rainier was using Schuetzen Gun Works for their Ultra-Match blanks.  Noveske used Pac-Nors.


I know 2 of my Ultramatch barrels were Shilen blanks, from back around 2013. From everything I’ve read, the current Ultramatch barrels are coming from Wisconsin, and are included in your list above. The finishing/chambering is done by a shop in TN, or was within the past few years.


Wisconsin doesn’t narrow it down much lol.  Wisconsin is a precision barrel Meca. It’s probably easier to count who isn’t in WI.

No idea who all is in Tennessee that spins up blanks. I know Southern Precision aka Bugholes is TN.  Those guys are awesome. One of my rifles is there now getting a new tube.  




Wisconsin and included in his list….

Elemental Industries, Craddock Precision and a few others are in TN.

Greg does great work. You’ll be happy with your build. You also hit the main point; both WOA and RA are proven commodities and turn out a good barrel.


 I have no doubt with those guys.
BTW since you are in GA let me know if you ever want to do a multiple barrel test again. I have a 300 yard range at home.  I’m planing to do a covered shooting platform with a little 10x10 cabin attached.  I also have a camper hookup
What’s cool is about 200 yards of it is a lane through threes that helps block a lot of wind of accuracy testes .  Consider this a open invite.

Link Posted: 1/5/2022 10:27:23 PM EDT
[#12]


I like my UltraMatch, it's a 2019 SPR profile, so probably identical to current production.

Target above was shot at 100 yards with 69 grain Federal Match, and a 10X scope, off a bipod.

That shot out by itself was #5, should have stopped at 4
Link Posted: 4/27/2022 4:07:46 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm also debating the same barrels, but with some customs tossed in...
$400 or less group:
WOA SPR 18"
RUM 18"

$600 or more group:
WOP Bartlein or Krieger 20" fluted
Compass Lake Bartlein or Krieger SDM-R 20" fluted...

Decisions decisions....

Uuugh...

-ZA
Link Posted: 4/27/2022 9:38:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
I'm also debating the same barrels, but with some customs tossed in...
$400 or less group:
WOA SPR 18"
RUM 18"

$600 or more group:
WOP Bartlein or Krieger 20" fluted
Compass Lake Bartlein or Krieger SDM-R 20" fluted...

Decisions decisions....

Uuugh...

-ZA
View Quote



I’ve have been very happy with the Barlien that CLE did for me.   I wish I had some targets to post.
It’s still new so I’m haven’t got to do any load development.  I did the published CLE break in using some factory American eagle .223
Even with that cheap ammo during the break in 5 shot groups were in the .5-.6s
I had it out yesterday with both 69 and 77g SMKs loaded with Varget and cfe223 from another rifles load data.
I was getting .3-.4s at 100 shooting off the back of my 4wheeler with a harris bipod and rear bag.    I plan to start doing some ladder tests here soon.    I did realize that may gas block had worked lose and had blow by. ( was off the dimple and no locktite)  It cycled but now that it’s on properly I want to see if that effected the harmonics.
The rifle is sitting in front of me now
Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 4/28/2022 4:35:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Well....

You clowns got me.
I just ordered a 1:7.7 Bartlein SDM-R 20" fluted barrel from CLE.

I got the CLE chamber. Gotta pick an upper and handguard now....

-ZA
Link Posted: 4/28/2022 6:34:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mc556] [#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
Well....

You clowns got me.
I just ordered a 1:7.7 Bartlein SDM-R 20" fluted barrel from CLE.

I got the CLE chamber. Gotta pick an upper and handguard now....

-ZA
View Quote


  Hey I’ll help you spend money.
Zev brought back the Mega MML platform.  It makes for a very stiff monolithic like setup.  
If you look at it around $500ish vs a stripped upper and quality rail your not spending but maybe a $100 or so more.  
 I just realized your in SC. If your in the Upstate send me a PM and you can shoot my setup. Also there is a local shop that stocks and sells Mega parts
Link Posted: 4/28/2022 9:34:16 PM EDT
[#17]
I live in Fort Mill, right near Charlotte.

I’ll check out that upper combo!

ZA
Link Posted: 4/28/2022 9:46:58 PM EDT
[#18]
I’ve got a really nice Aero M4e1 upper and hand guard combo that’s basically the same thing. I did have to bed it with loctite as the barrel just slid right in… I normally use Vltor MUR uppers and I always have to heat those up to get the barrels in.

How tight are the Megas?
Link Posted: 4/29/2022 8:52:37 PM EDT
[#19]
I have had to use a heat gun on all 5 Megas I have.
Link Posted: 4/30/2022 6:09:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
I’ve got a really nice Aero M4e1 upper and hand guard combo that’s basically the same thing. I did have to bed it with loctite as the barrel just slid right in… I normally use Vltor MUR uppers and I always have to heat those up to get the barrels in.

How tight are the Megas?
View Quote

Megas are tight
Link Posted: 4/30/2022 6:18:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sogan] [#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mc556:



I’ve have been very happy with the Barlien that CLE did for me.   I wish I had some targets to post.
It’s still new so I’m haven’t got to do any load development.  I did the published CLE break in using some factory American eagle .223
Even with that cheap ammo during the break in 5 shot groups were in the .5-.6s
I had it out yesterday with both 69 and 77g SMKs loaded with Varget and cfe223 from another rifles load data.
I was getting .3-.4s at 100 shooting off the back of my 4wheeler with a harris bipod and rear bag.    I plan to start doing some ladder tests here soon.    I did realize that may gas block had worked lose and had blow by. ( was off the dimple and no locktite)  It cycled but now that it’s on properly I want to see if that effected the harmonics.
The rifle is sitting in front of me now
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/87899/08850EBC-BD86-49C0-B518-D88F4B093250_jpe-2364351.JPG
View Quote

@mc556

Is it just me or is the CLE barrel break in confusing on their site?

1. "We recommend that no more than 20 rounds are fired at the time before cleaning the barrel for the first 60 rounds." - This makes sense. 3 rounds of 20 and clean after each set of 20.
2. "Your barrel must be thoroughly cleaned each time for the first 120 rounds." - Each time after what? Just after we fire 60 more rounds after step 1?

On the JB paste, is the "breech half" just the chamber area or is it the chamber and the first half of the barrel rifling where most of the carbon and copper is in a barrel?
Link Posted: 4/30/2022 6:26:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sogan:

@mc556

Is it just me or is the CLE barrel break in confusing on their site?

1. "We recommend that no more than 20 rounds are fired at the time before cleaning the barrel for the first 60 rounds." - This makes sense. 3 rounds of 20 and clean after each set of 20.
2. "Your barrel must be thoroughly cleaned each time for the first 120 rounds." - Each time after what? Just after we fire 60 more rounds after step 1?

On the JB paste, is the "breech half" just the chamber area? Or am I legit scrubbing half of the rifling only?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sogan:
Originally Posted By mc556:



I’ve have been very happy with the Barlien that CLE did for me.   I wish I had some targets to post.
It’s still new so I’m haven’t got to do any load development.  I did the published CLE break in using some factory American eagle .223
Even with that cheap ammo during the break in 5 shot groups were in the .5-.6s
I had it out yesterday with both 69 and 77g SMKs loaded with Varget and cfe223 from another rifles load data.
I was getting .3-.4s at 100 shooting off the back of my 4wheeler with a harris bipod and rear bag.    I plan to start doing some ladder tests here soon.    I did realize that may gas block had worked lose and had blow by. ( was off the dimple and no locktite)  It cycled but now that it’s on properly I want to see if that effected the harmonics.
The rifle is sitting in front of me now
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/87899/08850EBC-BD86-49C0-B518-D88F4B093250_jpe-2364351.JPG

@mc556

Is it just me or is the CLE barrel break in confusing on their site?

1. "We recommend that no more than 20 rounds are fired at the time before cleaning the barrel for the first 60 rounds." - This makes sense. 3 rounds of 20 and clean after each set of 20.
2. "Your barrel must be thoroughly cleaned each time for the first 120 rounds." - Each time after what? Just after we fire 60 more rounds after step 1?

On the JB paste, is the "breech half" just the chamber area? Or am I legit scrubbing half of the rifling only?


  I cleaned with Kroil before the first shot.
Did 10 cleaned with JB then did 20 clean and 20.  I only used JB with a patch and bore guide so no chamber area.  I push through a patch breach to crown. No back and forth.
Make sure to use that bore guide or buy one now

When I cleaned after the 50th round the first patch was almost no fowling.  I did one more batch of 20 and same deal almost no fowling.     I am going to start load development now.

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