Ok, I shot a PRS match, and Mikey Likey.

I used a f-class gun that was not well suited to the game,  chambered in 308 with big heavy slow bullets, had no bag, not even a bipod, but still did ok - well enough that I think if I actually prepared for a match, and brought proper equipment, I think I would do well.

So, I was all set to buy a rpr in 6.5 Creedmoor, toss a "good beginner midrange scope" on it,  and then I started looking at some of the forums and articles about gear, and realized that I was about to make a rookie gear mistake.  And if I continued down that path, I would end up with a half dozen guns that, while being incrementally better than the last, I would not be shooting because I got something better.

I realized that I am not shopping for a beginner PRS rifle, I am shopping for the rifle that I will eventually end up with.  I want to take the money that I would have spent on 2-3 "intermediate rifles" and skip to the "one rifle" and start learning it.

So far, it seems that something in 6mm seems to be  the hot ticket, with 6 dasher being very popular at the moment. I am an experienced reloader, but I expect to have to start from scratch no matter what caliber I choose... More than that, I  need education.

I  suppose this is just another "what should I buy" thread but I am specifically not giving a budget,  I am looking for recommendations on your "grail guns" for lack of a better explanation.

Pretty much this. I went a different route. I used what I had available and decided to build off a 6.5 SPS tactical. I upgraded the trigger and added an MPA chassis. I dont have a ton of money so I picked up a Diamondback Tactical FFP scope and later upgraded to a Viper PST II.

My thought process is I am still learning at positional shooting, so at least the chassis, trigger, and scope will transfer to a new build later on. The dasher is very cool but its hard on barrels. I figured I can have a nice rifle to train and learn on until I shoot it out, then build a nice rifle on a custom action and a Hawk Hill Barrel.

As of Right now that rifle is holding consistant .5 inch groups at 100m with quite a few being .3 inch. Im not real sure a full custom build is going to increase my hit probability any more at the moment. This will not stop me later down the road, but for now it will allow me to shoot more matches and learn from some great shooters. I will be shooting my 3rd match this year on the 18th and first one with real gear, real data, and a consistant rifle and ammo.

MPA makes a PRS entry rifle....

https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-pmr-competition-rifle/

I've got really good glass already, both a 4.5 to 27 Vortex and and 8 to 40 Burris.

BUT I  am going to question the 6-5 vs 6 mm choice, whatever I decide to shoot if it's not 308 I'm going to have to learn from scratch how to do it so making something like 6 Dasher is not appreciably more trouble and something like 6 5 and I'm given to understand that even the fire forming loads are pretty accurate.  At least accurate enough for practice.

Everybody and their brother on the low end is on the 6-5 bandwagon oh, there's a lot of factory produced ammo now, it should be getting cheaper but pretty much across-the-board everything I read says that 6 mm cartridges of various types and sizes are better ballistically.

But what I'm really aiming for here is buy once cry once.  It doesn't make sense to incorporate a compromise unless there is a compelling reason.

The answer on your caliber conundrum is that it probably doesn't matter. The advantages you are talking about aren't going to matter until you're at the top of the board anyway. Any of the popular 6.5 or 6mm rounds will do what you need to do. The reason 6.5 Creedmoor is so popular is because it has so much factory support and availability. If you are going to be handloading that isn't going to be as much of a concern to you.

Lots of good advice in here.

The 6.5 creedmoor is a very good option. Multiple brass sources, good factory ammo and performance at the desired ranges.

I run 223, 260’s, 6.5 creedmoor and have just built 2 6 creedmoors. The 6’s have less recoil, but they are going to burn out barrels much faster when pushing them above 3100fps. The dasher is an interesting round, but just more work than I’m wanting to put in. There has also been shortages on brass in the past year. Perhaps supply has caught up with demand, but you can load the 6 creed with a mild load and match the performance of the dasher (velocity, barrel life).

And like Rob is saying, you don’t have to follow the pack. Get what you can use and practice with. You could have a hot 6mm and get smoked by someone with a 223 that practices several times per month. The cartridge won’t get you the points; practice will.

Looks like alot of good advice here, thanks.  Good point about avoiding one mistake only to make another.  I wasn't meaning to imply that 6.5 Creedmoor was low end, my point is that there are quite a few lower end rifles chambered in that caliber, in addition to higher end rifles.   I think that I will revisit 6.5 creedmoor.

On to the rifle.  At my local Scheels, they have probably 25 different rifles in 6.5 Creedmoor,  in prices from a few hundred to about 3k for this ultra cool carbon fiber job.  One that caught my eye (other than carbon fiber) was a used RPR for $800.

If I  eliminate any without a 10 round DBM, that narrows the choices a bit, but the 800 RPR and 3k carbon fiber are still in the hunt.  Soo, if I  pick 3 options,  say those two, and for the sake of argument, let's call #3 a GAP team rifle that starts around 5k.  Obviously there are others, but it seems like a good representation of a custom rifle.

So, I have low, medium and high.  I suppose to be complete, I would have to include a #4 that is essentially me picking individual parts and paying a gunsmith to assemble them (or, gasp, myself).   I am going to assume that will end up similar to the GAP rifle in price, or maybe a bit less if I find deals.

So, without getting too hung up in my individual examples, I can appreciate that I can buy the cheapest rifle of the bunch,  afford an awesome replacement trigger, half dozen replacement barrels and a metric ton of ammo or reloading components for the same price as the "high" choice.

With all of the advice of practice being superior to equipment, that seems like a valid option if not the best looking one.  The middle of the road option still leaves me with a enough cash for a lot of ammo (or reloads) to practice with.

I presume that the high end rifle should shoot rings around the mid range, and be drastically more accurate than the low end, (at least until the replacement parts are applied) even if I equalize for fully developed and tuned reloads in each of them.  Part of that assumption does rely on the theory that certain cartridges are inherently accurate and 6.5 Creedmoor is one.

Personally I am of a mind that performance is much more important than asthetics in that I would rather have an ugly gun that shoots great then a beautiful gun that I couldn't hit a barn with. Obviously I'm going to be able to hit a barn with something like a gap rifle.

I am annoyed by the fact that I seem to be talking myself into a lower price rifle. When I started this thread I was assuming that if I was going with a custom caliber like 6 Dasher that I wouldn't be able to get any over-the-counter rifles.  So, help me continue with my decision, including any recommendations for specific guns or gunsmithing, please.

There's always MPA rifles too.

A GAP rifle will shoot significantly better than a Ruger but whether or not you will see that difference is a whole other thing.

Wringing out the last bit of accuracy doesn’t really seem to be the problem most run into for prs type shooting from what I can see from the outside. Knowing your dope and calling wind is what it takes to win.

This..I would buy a brand new MPA rifle for 2-4 k and have a new rifle versus a used rifle with who knows what abuses behind it..

I spent 2500 to rebuild my rifle OP..not counting scope, mounts or bipod......Thats a new bartlein barrel of my choice/ squared up action(done by Bartlein), an MPA chassis,  a fat bastard brake, and a trigger tech trigger....

Attached File

I totally agree with just about everything Rob has said in all his post on this matter.

There is nothing wrong wit getting a good rifle and going from there.  You can go the 6mm route but like he said its not a game changer.  I've been shooting 223 the season in two day matches and beating a lot of guys running 6 and 6.5s both.

There are so many good components out there it can be tricky to choose what you really want.  For me the hardest thing to swap are barrels and actions and I just don't like messing with that stuff.  With all the good gear a lot of it is preference.

Ok, I have traditionally been suspicious of used custom guns, particularly because every single one has "had under (insert impractically low number here) of rounds through it."  It's possible that I am being uncharitable, and the sellers really did go to all of the expense and trouble of building a custom rifle and just never even really zeroed it.  There is always the suspicion that there is something amiss that, due to my inexperience, I would not notice until after the deal.

That said, I have been a member over at the hide since before they went corporate, I just don't post over there enough to have any street cred, so I didn't feel like I could ask this same question there.  At least you guys are taking me as seriously as I take myself...lol.

But back to the rifle.  I have to admit that I don't know much of anything about custom rifles, so I have no idea what brands or options would be best suited to my purposes.  And THAT, my friends, leads to poor choices.  MPA has been mentioned a few times, and everyone has heard of g a precision, but other than that, when I look on EE, or gunbroker or wherever, I am not sure what I am looking at most of the time  (hence this thread)

And that's a good reason to start shooting with an RPR or Bergara HMR for under $1000.  Neither will hold you back and you'll have time to decide what really suits you before you build your dream rifle.

My first "precision" bolt action rifle was an MPA.

You can order whatever length barrel you want and sometimes choose between actions (Curtis custom or bighorn-depends if they have bighorn on hand).  You can pick whatever flavor of Triggertech trigger you want.  I'd consider it a semi-custom.

PVA also makes a great semi-custom.  Their lead time is growing, but if you're patient you can get a great rifle for a little less than an MPA.

I'm more than satisfied with what MPA built.  It's extremely accurate, the action is smooth, and it was built well.

I went with 6.5 for longer barrel life.  No other reason.  It shoots well enough out to 1200m+.

ETA: As others have said, don't get sucked into the cool guy stuff.  It won't matter until you're shooting at the top of the heap.

You're probably going to do just fine with an rpr in 6 creed.

The 80 gr eldm has given me a new respect for the .223 rem in the RPR. We have pot shoots here and I’ve been doing really well and more shooters contribute to the pot if I’m toting the .223 than the 6.5 Creedmoore.

ouch, lol.

Apparently some of y'all don't really realize this is a stealth "spend my money" thread...

There are a hundred threads on "the best rifle under $1k", "best bargain rifle", "cheapest Chassis rifle that shoots 6.5" - but that's not want I am asking.  I don't need a beginner rifle, I already have several rifles that are not well suited to the sport, but will work in a pinch.  And Yes, I can continue to shoot my .308's, and struggle up the learning curve, always wondering if that miss was me, the rifle or the ammo (hint, misses are always my fault, ultimately).

Obviously I am going to have to balance between the best of the best made from unobtanium with a 6 year wait and a 5 figure price tag, and the used RPR that I can walk in and buy right now.  Since my primary purpose for this is PRS competition, I can narrow down the choices to 6.5 Creedmoor, a 10 round DBM and a 20 MOA rail.  I think I prefer a Chassis over a standard stock and a folder might make it easier to transport especially if I get a 24" or longer barrel.   There seems to be a few "production class" rifles that have been linked or mentioned above like the seekins, and the MPA, but I am wondering if I can spend "a few dollars more" and get an appreciably better rifle.

I'm sitting here with my custom .223 bolt gun. ARC action, custom barrel, AICS AX. It's a beauty, but in the end it doesn't do anything my friends .223 RPR can't do. We're both shooting the 80ELDm a little over 2800 with about .5 MOA groups.

Kinda wish I had saved $1000 and just got the RPR.

No to get too off topic, but I run a tac legal load that's a 75 ELD at 2975.  I've connected out to 1200 during matches.  the 80 has a little edge on the 75 but isn't a legal option in that class.

There are a ton of good builders out there, but if you're newer to the game it's hard to know who they all are.  I'd look at the overall components and who did the work.  Barrels are disposable, but often when guys sells rifles the round counts are low.   Overall i'm looking more at the action, trigger and stock.  The shop that does my work stocks a bunch of parts and if you send yours they can turn around a top tier rifle in a matter of a few weeks not months.

And here I was plum proud of myself for connecting on a milk jug at 980 across a pond and up the side of a hill.

I’ve heard the 75 is a little easier to load for too. I would try it but I have 1000 80ELDms at home. I’m not really concerned about qualifying for tac at the moment as I don’t compete with this gun anyways. And if I did, I’d prefer open.

Ps. What powder and load are you using to get 2975? I’m using 23.8 of 8208 to get 2850 out of 24” barrel with the 80s.

I shot the 80s and they were great to load for too.   I'm using 8208 but more of it.  My barrel is only 21" as well.  My load is rain safe.

Just to be clear, I don't mind the off topic discussion, because I am learning more about .223

Do you have specific rifles you're looking at?

The way I see it, there are 3 different price points:
$1000ish rifles (RPR/Tikka/Bergara)
$2000ish rifles (JHR/MPA/budget customs)
$4000ish rifles (full on customs by major house/AI)

I think you get best value in the 2k range. Both factory rifles in that range and budget customs.

Yes

There is definitely a law of diminishing returns at play.   You get past the budget custom point and any gains come with an exponentially steeper cost.  I like the full on custom route, but I'm fully aware the higher end product doesn't magically put more lead on steel.   I personally just figure if I'm diving in I may as well get what I want.

Wait till you drop the coin on one and honestly play with it! I’m seriously looking at trying a .223AI now and trying to step up to the 90gr bullets just to see what they do. Wind is our biggest nemesis down here. I don’t have time to travel to play but we have good ole boy shoots kinda like the turkey shoots of the past. And if you want people to shoot against you you need a sleeper. A rifle they think they can beat not the shooter. Plus the .223 seems to be like the .308 really easy to load for. I’m having excellent luck with CFE223 behind the 75gr ELDM and Varget behind the 80 gr ELDM. CFE223 was a little pressure sensitive with the 80gr bullet. So what is your thoughts now that you’ve had time to digest some excellent content?

I did the same thing at the beginning of April. Shot a 2 day match, it was my first PRS match.

I was having a 6.5Creed rifle built, Sentinel stock, Deviant action, Kreiger 26in barrel etc, but they didnt make it in time so I had to scrounge a Rem700 to shoot about 3 days before the match. XLR chassis, timney elite trigger, this wasnt a base rifle, it shot better than .75 moa when I zeroed it.

I had a scope failure on the first day, my Premier Heritage wouldn't hold zero, so I was DFL after day 1, it was not a fun day, especially since I didnt know anyone there... DFL= Dead eFFing Last

The second day I got to shoot with the GAP team, these guys finished 1-8 and then a few in the top 20. On the first stage, I though I had my stuff fixed, since Iswapped scope rails, mounts and locktited everything, but it was still all over the place. Justin Vinyard got down and put a few rounds through my rifle and declared it unfit, George Gardner asked if I had a backup rifle, and when I didnt, they busted out one of their team rifles and handed it to me. 6mm Creed shooting factory Hornady 140ELD, topped with a S&B PM2. This rifle was nicer than most peoples primary rifles, and it shot great. I did much better the second day on the same stages.

Now that my rifle is done, I'm shooting 6.5 Creed Federal GMM, and on the same targets, the recoil impulse and overall experience is 95% the same as the 6mm. I have a different scope and stock, so that plays into it.

All that is to say I shot with a base rifle and a top level rifle in the span of 48 hours, the caliber had very little to do with it. Just FYI, the GAP guys all shot factory Hornady 6mm, save for 2 guys shooting a Dasher.

Feel free to PM any questions you may have... happy to help, I'm hooked for life now

I have an AI too it's not worth it.  You only get marginal gains in a 223.  CFE gives good speed but is horribly temp sensitive.

Yeah you can’t crowd maximum loads for sure! Yet it really performs well in my 6.5 Grendel. I sure wish it wasn’t so temperature sensitive cause it groups so well. Yeah I avoided the maximum loads just for that reason.

There's a bunch of us running it around OH in our 223s.  Next barrel isn going to go a little longer, but more for balance.

Im on squad 4 so stop by and say Hi. Ask for Dave

I went all out and built up a rifle on a TL3 action. My only regret is not doing it sooner. It’s my do all gun, from PRS, to big game hunting. Love the easily barrel changes and versatility. Just bought a shouldered pre fit carbon barrel direct from proof research for my trip out west this fall. I can use cheap savage barrels for plinking/competition. I can swap bolt heads/barrels and go from 223 up to 300 WSM.

I did the RPR thing for a while. Started 308 and swapped to an aftermarket 6.5 barrel. It’s a decent gun for the money,  but it just doesn’t compare to the high end actions out there these days.

You can hit up area419, altus shooting, hawk hill etc and get a barreled action all decked out and drop it in the flavor stock/chassis that intrigues you.

I'll be building next yes rifle on a defiance action bartlein barrel and a MDT ACC chassis in 6.5x47 lapua.

One thing you have to decide on is how heavy you want your rifle lots of guys like the 22-30# range to make the rifle a solid sit to mitigate recoil.

I've been shooting a 15# rifle and the new one will prob be closer to 20# when I'm done with it.

@buckeyerifleman did you shoot BDS this weekend.

Nope, I haven't been doing much with competitions for a while unfortunately. I work a lot of weekends, and when I do have a day off on a weekend that's usually reserved for spending time with my wife, as she works a normal 9-5 job and time together is pretty limited. Hard to explain to the wife you are going to go shoot on the one Saturday that month you aren't at work, and had 3 days off during the week you could've hit the range.

I try to hit matches that are in the middle of the week (Brian Rabbit) when they swing around.

I am very much of the opinion that lighter is better most everywhere else.  Seems like that would mean that I have to be more careful with my selection of muzzle device.  Worst case, it seems much easier to add weight than to remove it.

I will be Googling the tl3 etc later, but in the meantime, and in the vein that lighter (may be) better,  what is the collective opinion of the Christiansen MPR?  I  mean a carbon fiber barrel AND forend?  Take my money, please.  Even if it is not perfect for prs, I might just have to have one of those on general principles...

I got a chance to handle a RPR, a seekins havak, a savage Ashbury,  a tikka and that Christiansen MPR at Cabellas this weekend and I was favorably impressed by the Christiansen the most.  Admittedly that impression was 90% asthetics, because I love me some carbon fiber, but damn.

The RPR was a brick, the savage was much smoother, but I was not digging the lack of tube.  The seekins and the tikka were both pretty slick, but they were shorter barrels, and I was already thinking "for a few dollars more"...

I have the MPR and like it as a hunting rifle. It’s accurate, but not as accurate as other rifles or custom builds in its price range.

It is a great rifle if you’re looking for chassis ergos on a gun that will be carried more than shot.

Ok, so this is another data point.  I sent CA some questions about what THEY thought about using their gun for PRS and this is what I got back:

My questions in black, the responses in red.

The color question is because I have the vortex scope, and my LGS said they could get black or brown rifle, and I am a nerd.  The barrel swap questions were because I had been looking at savages and they are pretty famous for swappability.  The only response that got my attention was the last one.  Does this seem correct or is "Cade" just being cautious?  I would have thought that producing a chassis rifle would be aiming for the competition segment of the market which typically shoots more at once than hunters.

So, realistically, does the CA give up very much to the "production class" sub $2000 rifles offered by places like MPA?  Obviously it isnt the final answer to the question I am asking here, but it definitely seems to be about the best rifle that I can buy off the shelf.  Most every nicer option I have looked at is "order and wait" unless I get lucky and there is the rifle I want just happens to be in stock.  This isn't like buying a Glock, lol.

Honestly don't worry about production class, get what you want.  Production is really only a thing at two day matches and the production trophy went to a guy who was in like 190th shooting an MPA rifle.  There are guys like that and then there is Doug Keonig absolutely destroying guys  when he shows up at a match. Pretty much any production rifle can shoot well enough to hit targets in PRS.  It requires accuracy, but it's much more time management and position building once you get the shooting part down.

Im not really in the market but I found This Christensen BA Tactical at Osage County guns when I was looking at stuff on sale.

To your question about his reply firing schedule means everything with these guns. It’s why casual shooters like me can make low barrel life rounds last but a competition shooter would burn it up with 30% less rounds being shot. 20 rounds in fast succession is a lot and you will get more wear than a gun that shot the same 20 rounds with more time in between.

It was one of the main criticisms of the luckygunner test a lot of people cite about steel cased ammo and reduced barrel life. His extreme firing schedule was a huge factor but almost not mentioned and when you do that and then try and say it can be extrapolated to a test with guns shot slowly it’s not automatically true.