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Posted: 5/2/2018 2:35:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2018 2:38:00 PM EDT by Chevyguy2012]
Looking forward to my next adventure I am torn between these two rounds. I caught the long range bug quite a while ago and sold alot of stuff to get into it the right way. As some of you may remember I ended up purchasing a Tikka ctr in 6.5 creedmoor sticking it in a mcmillan stock and throwing a razor on top. I love it cant get enough and every time I shoot longer ranges I know a gas gun will have to be in the works in the future. Just because in arfcom fashion why not have both.

I started a thread a while ago asking gas gun or can next well after speaking with people here and having some time to think I ordered a dead air sandman s and am in the process of waiting for that now. So naturally the question is whats next. I sold alot of my 5.56 AR stuff to fund the bolt gun and now other than 300 blk stuff I am honestly AR less now I have other semi auto plinkers aks etc so Im covered for blasting and the long range bug is screaming gas gun the question is big block or small block.

Pros I see on the 6.5 creedmoor side is Im already putting together a nice ammo fort for the creedmoor I reload and I have lots of components plus factory ammo, plus a little extra power never hurts either. Though since I already have a bolt gun the gas gun will likely stay 1k in but I do plan to shoot it that far. If I go this route I will likely order a larue uu kit I have heard some not so positive things about them recently but I have always liked their products and they way I look at it even if its not the greatest shooter the price is a hell of a deal for all you get the receivers are top notch and for some reason if the barrels not a shooter it could be re-barreled and still come in less than a complete custom build.

Pros I see on the 6.5 grendel Is obviously the small block size, the capability of the round compared to the weight of the platform. Its a 6.5 which is nice but I run 139 lapuas through the bolt gun and normally stay around that weight as the rifle likes it and I use h4350 which I see is not a good grendel powder so its not like I will really be sharing components. If I go this route it will likely be a custom build with a lija barrel. Another positive here is I could buy another 5.56 upper for fun and blasting.

Im not a hunter though I might get out on a hunt once or twice, this will mainly be used for long range fun and some gas gun matches, which one would you guys choose and why?
Link Posted: 5/2/2018 2:36:32 PM EDT
Also bolt gun because everyone loves pictures

Link Posted: 5/2/2018 6:19:39 PM EDT
I own both and honestly, my Grendel sits in the closet unless my brother wants to use it when we go hunting. It's a damn good shooter and I probably should shoot it more. But the 6.5 CM is just too badass to keep from shooting it everytime I go hunting or Target shooting. The impacts on steel at a 1000 hit so much harder than the Grendel and ballistically, it is a joy to dial and shoot. The only downfall to an AR10 platform compared to an AR15 platform is the weight. When you're Target shooting, it's not bad to deal with. But when you're carrying that thing hunting, you get real tired, real quick. I suppose in your case, since you already have a bolt gun in 6.5 CM, it would be pretty cool to get an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. I have shot my Grendel out to 1000 with good success, but it does have significantly more drop than the CM. Tough decision, but it sounds like you might eventually like to get both anyway
Link Posted: 5/2/2018 7:46:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Demphna2:
I own both and honestly, my Grendel sits in the closet unless my brother wants to use it when we go hunting. It's a damn good shooter and I probably should shoot it more. But the 6.5 CM is just too badass to keep from shooting it everytime I go hunting or Target shooting. The impacts on steel at a 1000 hit so much harder than the Grendel and ballistically, it is a joy to dial and shoot. The only downfall to an AR10 platform compared to an AR15 platform is the weight. When you're Target shooting, it's not bad to deal with. But when you're carrying that thing hunting, you get real tired, real quick. I suppose in your case, since you already have a bolt gun in 6.5 CM, it would be pretty cool to get an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. I have shot my Grendel out to 1000 with good success, but it does have significantly more drop than the CM. Tough decision, but it sounds like you might eventually like to get both anyway
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Ohhh don't worry I'm sure i'll have both at some point its a problem i've had ever since I came here I think I kind of lean with you in the feeling of loving the creedmoor though I'm partly leaning towards that first!
Link Posted: 5/3/2018 12:05:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2018 12:08:34 AM EDT by Duffman_blasting]
Since you already have a 6.5CM bolt gun, it is a tough choice. Still, if its long range you're going for I'd go with AR10 in 6.5CM. FWIW, I prefer shooting my .223 to the Grendel for AR15 sized precision semi-auto, whenever I'm shooting past 700 yards I bring the Creedmoor. Don't get me wrong, the Grendel is a very interesting cartridge, but for me the Grendel isn't THAT much better than 69 or 77gr SMKs or 70gr TSX, and it's definitely less performance at 1000 than 6.5CM.

Edit: Love the Tikka , I have mine in 6.5CM as well, probably my favorite rifle.
Link Posted: 5/3/2018 7:43:54 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Duffman_blasting:
Since you already have a 6.5CM bolt gun, it is a tough choice. Still, if its long range you're going for I'd go with AR10 in 6.5CM. FWIW, I prefer shooting my .223 to the Grendel for AR15 sized precision semi-auto, whenever I'm shooting past 700 yards I bring the Creedmoor. Don't get me wrong, the Grendel is a very interesting cartridge, but for me the Grendel isn't THAT much better than 69 or 77gr SMKs or 70gr TSX, and it's definitely less performance at 1000 than 6.5CM.

Edit: Love the Tikka , I have mine in 6.5CM as well, probably my favorite rifle.
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Thanks man my tikka is pretty much my favorite rifle as well. I think I'm leaning towards the creedmoor also It is a great available round and it doesn't hurt that I already reload for it.
Link Posted: 5/4/2018 9:28:37 AM EDT
Any other opinions right now especially with my feelings already it seems like its going to be the creedmoor
Link Posted: 5/4/2018 7:11:06 PM EDT
My 6.5CM bolt gun is almost 20 pounds and is a pain in the ass when I'm not pulling the trigger.

I built a 16" 6.5G upper and love it so far. Just under 8 lbs w/o can.

123 ELD @2450
129 ABLR @ 2430

Nice thing about a G is that if you don't like it you can revert to a standard AR since you don't have one.
Link Posted: 5/5/2018 11:12:03 AM EDT
In my opinion, the advantages you'll have with a 6.5 C on an AR10 platform will be the mag capacity and semi auto capability. Those are your only gains but that's just my opinion. I don't believe it will ever shoot with the same precision that your bolt gun should with the right loads. That said and if I was in your situation I would probably go with the Grendel. It will be more nimble and will still shoot well out to 500 yards without an excessive amount of burdensome ballistics calculations. It'll take some practice but once you get to know it, I think you'll like it. I have an Alexander Arms 6.5 G upper on an 80% lower and it shoots nice tight groups. If I was going to do a 6.5 C it would definitely be a bolt gun. The biggest drawback to the 6.5 G is ammunition availability and cost but if you reload, the supplies are readily available.
Link Posted: 5/5/2018 11:40:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2018 1:56:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2018 1:57:35 PM EDT by Demphna2]
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Originally Posted By sschefer: I don't believe it will ever shoot with the same precision that your bolt gun should with the right loads.
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Care to explain further?
Link Posted: 5/5/2018 10:47:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Demphna2:
Care to explain further?
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Originally Posted By Demphna2:
Originally Posted By sschefer: I don't believe it will ever shoot with the same precision that your bolt gun should with the right loads.
Care to explain further?
Humm, my beliefs are from experience and I shoot better with a bolt rifle with one exception and that's my .223 Wylde AR-15 style rifle. However, I have at least 5,000.00 invested in that rifle and it's optics. I believe you can work up a round with greater precision when it's for a bolt gun. The 6.5 Creedmore is a great round and there's tons of ammo on the shelves for it but if the only reason you want one is to shoot fast then all the precision it provides are kind of moot point. The 6.5 Grendel is better suited for that in my opinion.
Link Posted: 5/6/2018 12:24:30 AM EDT
I'm going to have to disagree here. I think a barrel, whether it be on a bolt gun or a semi auto precision rifle, can be just as precise as one another. Fine tuning your ammunition according to barrel harmonics, which Grendel and Creedmoor are a joy to reload for, is what will give you your precision regardless if it's in either platform. I do tend to agree with your premise, but I'm not going to fret over another 1/4 MOA if I'm shooting 1/2 MOA from a semi auto precision rifle.
Link Posted: 5/6/2018 6:11:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2018 6:11:23 PM EDT by Chevyguy2012]
I definitely agree with the weight statements the bolt gun is close to 20 pounds and it would be nice to have something light for long range fun.

And as far as accuracy goes I would tend to say to me I definitely shoot better with a bolt gun not because it's "more accurate" but because there are less things going on recoil wise. Where as on a gas gun you have the bolt buffer etc. In my opinion a ga precision gap 10 would be more accurate then a basic remage with the right shooter behind it. Also I would think that if that shooter was trying to win a prs match he would likely shoot a bolt gun for the same reason I stated. However there are tons of threads on this already.
Link Posted: 5/11/2018 8:53:45 AM EDT
Any other thoughts?
Link Posted: 5/11/2018 10:01:56 PM EDT
yep Just a thought . In my psychotic thought proccess I feel the need to have at least one each bolt gun and semi-auto in every caliber I own . so I would go with a gasser 6.5 creedmoor.
Link Posted: 5/12/2018 12:46:28 PM EDT
6.5 creed. The only thing the grendel has going for it is it fits in an ar15 frame. The ballistics of a grendel are just marginally better then a 175smk in 308. A 155 new style palma destroys the grendel.
Link Posted: 5/15/2018 7:28:18 PM EDT
That sounds logical to me actually hahahah
Link Posted: 5/15/2018 8:55:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:
6.5 creed. The only thing the grendel has going for it is it fits in an ar15 frame. The ballistics of a grendel are just marginally better then a 175smk in 308. A 155 new style palma destroys the grendel.
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I love AR10 pattern rifles. However, I think that’s the point of the Grendel. It’s like a 7.5 lb+ vs an Ar10 at 10 lbs+. The lower/ receiver extension is smaller. Most shooters say less recoil than a 308 and easy follow up shots.

Imo Grendel isn’t suppose to go up against 6.5 creedmore / 260 Remington. It’s suppose to increase the practical distance of an AR15. The BC of the 6.5 paired with the small frame/ weight and minimal recoil make it a great practical choice for many applications. Not every target is at 1000 yards.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 3:15:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:
6.5 creed. The only thing the grendel has going for it is it fits in an ar15 frame. The ballistics of a grendel are just marginally better then a 175smk in 308. A 155 new style palma destroys the grendel.
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Thats just the point, marginally better in a smaller package, burning less powder, with less recoil for an ultimately lower cost.
Link Posted: 5/23/2018 11:29:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GMZ:
Thats just the point, marginally better in a smaller package, burning less powder, with less recoil for an ultimately lower cost.
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Originally Posted By GMZ:
Originally Posted By DH243:
6.5 creed. The only thing the grendel has going for it is it fits in an ar15 frame. The ballistics of a grendel are just marginally better then a 175smk in 308. A 155 new style palma destroys the grendel.
Thats just the point, marginally better in a smaller package, burning less powder, with less recoil for an ultimately lower cost.
I have all of them across multiple rifle types, bolt and gas, including .260 Rem, 6.5CM, 6.5 Grendel.

A 155gr Palma even at Palma brass speeds and exceeding .308 MAP in a big heavy bolt gun that you would never carry around is easily undercut by a lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR15 shooting 130gr Nosler RDF.

155gr Palma at 3000fps from 30" barrel still has 2.5 mils of drift at 1000yds.

130gr RDF going 500fps slower at 15,000psi less chamber from an AR15, less than half the recoil and muzzle climb/blast, is 2.3 mils, from 22-24" barrel, not even a bolt gun. That's using G7 drag model as well.

When I run my numbers and look at where my .260 Rem or 6.5CM hits 6.5 Grendel muzzle velocity with the exact same bullet, I see about a 150-200yd advantage for the larger 6.5-08 class of cartridges.

The statements about how much better 6.5CM and .260 Rem are over 6.5 Grendel are almost always exaggerated by people who have never looked at the charts side-by-side, or have shot 123gr out of Grendel next to 140gr in a 6.5-08 type bolt gun.

Guess what? You can load 140s in a Grendel bolt gun too, but I prefer 130gr class in all of them on the top end.

There are some clear performance advantages for 150-200yd more supersonic reach, and you see these at the farther ranges and in variable wind conditions at distance, so there is a clear argument in favor of 6.5-08, but we're talking 800yds to ELR territory.

Even my 12" Grendel is supersonic past 1000yds with 123gr Scenar, SMK, or 130gr RDF.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 9:17:34 AM EDT
The 6.5 Grendel will make you a much better shot with more rounds in between barrel replacement. You will get a few more shots before the barrel gets hot. More rounds per pound of powder. And it's to bad Tikka doesn't offer one on the same foot print as your Creedmoor. That being said I could not argue against an AR 15 Grendel and AR 10 Creedmoor setup as close as possible. But in true arfcom fashion the build is half the fun.
My go to ranch rifle is a 6.5 Grendel...
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 11:23:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

I have all of them across multiple rifle types, bolt and gas, including .260 Rem, 6.5CM, 6.5 Grendel.

A 155gr Palma even at Palma brass speeds and exceeding .308 MAP in a big heavy bolt gun that you would never carry around is easily undercut by a lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR15 shooting 130gr Nosler RDF.

155gr Palma at 3000fps from 30" barrel still has 2.5 mils of drift at 1000yds.

130gr RDF going 500fps slower at 15,000psi less chamber from an AR15, less than half the recoil and muzzle climb/blast, is 2.3 mils, from 22-24" barrel, not even a bolt gun. That's using G7 drag model as well.

When I run my numbers and look at where my .260 Rem or 6.5CM hits 6.5 Grendel muzzle velocity with the exact same bullet, I see about a 150-200yd advantage for the larger 6.5-08 class of cartridges.

The statements about how much better 6.5CM and .260 Rem are over 6.5 Grendel are almost always exaggerated by people who have never looked at the charts side-by-side, or have shot 123gr out of Grendel next to 140gr in a 6.5-08 type bolt gun.

Guess what? You can load 140s in a Grendel bolt gun too, but I prefer 130gr class in all of them on the top end.

There are some clear performance advantages for 150-200yd more supersonic reach, and you see these at the farther ranges and in variable wind conditions at distance, so there is a clear argument in favor of 6.5-08, but we're talking 800yds to ELR territory.

Even my 12" Grendel is supersonic past 1000yds with 123gr Scenar, SMK, or 130gr RDF.
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Damn, every time I read a post of yours I want to do a Grendel despite the fact that I like to keep as few chamberings around as possible. I love my 6.5 Creedmoor but I also really like short, handy guns.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 8:07:06 PM EDT
After what I saw this weekend with performance from the lowest BC 123gr factory round out of a 12" Grendel to 800yds, I think the Grendel pistol is going to become my first-grab AR15 for anything.

POI was stupid-consistent even with a 1-4x24 GRSC discontinued scope.

I'm looking at what my drop will be with better bullets, and it's silly.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 10:15:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
After what I saw this weekend with performance from the lowest BC 123gr factory round out of a 12" Grendel to 800yds, I think the Grendel pistol is going to become my first-grab AR15 for anything.

POI was stupid-consistent even with a 1-4x24 GRSC discontinued scope.

I'm looking at what my drop will be with better bullets, and it's silly.
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Ok, this is probably going to have to happen. Do you have any experience w/ SBR/pistol length 6.5 Creedmoor? I am wondering because I already have a solid stock of good 6.5 CM ammo. At the same time, I realize it would be chopping the legs off of part of what makes that cartridge great... velocity. The Grendel looks great, I just always hesitate when potentially adding a new round to the existing collection.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 1:09:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Ok, this is probably going to have to happen. Do you have any experience w/ SBR/pistol length 6.5 Creedmoor? I am wondering because I already have a solid stock of good 6.5 CM ammo. At the same time, I realize it would be chopping the legs off of part of what makes that cartridge great... velocity. The Grendel looks great, I just always hesitate when potentially adding a new round to the existing collection.
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
After what I saw this weekend with performance from the lowest BC 123gr factory round out of a 12" Grendel to 800yds, I think the Grendel pistol is going to become my first-grab AR15 for anything.

POI was stupid-consistent even with a 1-4x24 GRSC discontinued scope.

I'm looking at what my drop will be with better bullets, and it's silly.
Ok, this is probably going to have to happen. Do you have any experience w/ SBR/pistol length 6.5 Creedmoor? I am wondering because I already have a solid stock of good 6.5 CM ammo. At the same time, I realize it would be chopping the legs off of part of what makes that cartridge great... velocity. The Grendel looks great, I just always hesitate when potentially adding a new round to the existing collection.
If you plan on using it with a suppressor, make sure your can is rated to handle that short of a barrel.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 2:05:42 PM EDT
I have a Grendel and a Tikka Creedmoor...So get the Grendel and go shoot it.
I think your gonna love the lighter more nimble platform just fine.
I shoot the Grendel more...but I love them both.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 6:40:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
If you plan on using it with a suppressor, make sure your can is rated to handle that short of a barrel.
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
After what I saw this weekend with performance from the lowest BC 123gr factory round out of a 12" Grendel to 800yds, I think the Grendel pistol is going to become my first-grab AR15 for anything.

POI was stupid-consistent even with a 1-4x24 GRSC discontinued scope.

I'm looking at what my drop will be with better bullets, and it's silly.
Ok, this is probably going to have to happen. Do you have any experience w/ SBR/pistol length 6.5 Creedmoor? I am wondering because I already have a solid stock of good 6.5 CM ammo. At the same time, I realize it would be chopping the legs off of part of what makes that cartridge great... velocity. The Grendel looks great, I just always hesitate when potentially adding a new round to the existing collection.
If you plan on using it with a suppressor, make sure your can is rated to handle that short of a barrel.
It's one of the first things I thought of walking away from the range last Saturday...

What would a 12" 6.5CM pistol/SBR do?

That's also a good point on suppressor rating.

One of the reasons I went 12" on 6.5 Grendel was so that I don't exceed the minimum barrel length (go under) that the TBAC Ti Ultra 5 is rated to, which is 11".

I also have a pile of 6.5CM ammo.

Right now, the Grendel pistol has a bit more recoil than others I own since it's just so much smaller and compact.

I'm thinking what that's going to do to my sight picture with a 6.5CM, and I'm not liking the idea of losing FOV of the target. Could be tamed with Lo-mass carrier, adjustable gas, SCS, but I would really prefer as compact as possible and low/minimal recoil.

Maybe shoot 107gr SMKs. Computer tells me a 12.5" 6.5Cm will push a 107gr SMK to 2682fps.

Another idea is to do a 6mm AR pistol, but right now, the Grendel pistol with a huge factory ammo support base is doing better than I expected of it by a wide margin.

Wish I would have gotten one years ago. Now I know what Dave Fortier means when he says his 12.5" Grendel is his favorite to shoot.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 7:48:35 PM EDT
My 20" 6.5 CM shoots the flipping lights out but is a big with the 20" heavy heavy barrel. Yesterday my 140 gr American Gunner averaged under 0.5 MOA at 100 yd, the gun astonishes me. I would like to try a 16" or shorter barrel but don't want to waste my time if others have tried it and found that it eliminates the substantial ballistic advantage of the 6.5 CM. I'd be really curious to see velocity readings from 140 gr Hornady American Gunner and 147 gr Hornady ELD-M from shorter barrels. I found the "cutting up a Creedmoor" article a while back but they stop at 16."
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 6:33:00 PM EDT
You don't really lose as much as you might think going from 20" to 18" or 16" with 6.5mm anything.

18" 6.5CM is still well supersonic past 1200yds even at sea level, with only 2.2 mils of drift at 1k using a 140gr Hornady ELD-M or old 140gr A-MAX, 10 mils drop. I'm using G7 BCs, not G1, which will often give you false/optimistic drop and drift data once you get beyond 600yds.

You also have 1800fps expansion envelope out to 575yds with the 140gr AMAX (1817fps).

18" 140gr 6.5CM will have ~2588fps, which is more than you need for most of what anyone will be doing, and is still competitive.

Shoot a 130gr and you're at 2677fps.

If I was building a 6.5CM gas gun right now, I'd be doing an even shorter barrel, integrally suppressed.
Link Posted: 5/29/2018 9:02:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
It's one of the first things I thought of walking away from the range last Saturday...

What would a 12" 6.5CM pistol/SBR do?

That's also a good point on suppressor rating.

One of the reasons I went 12" on 6.5 Grendel was so that I don't exceed the minimum barrel length (go under) that the TBAC Ti Ultra 5 is rated to, which is 11".

I also have a pile of 6.5CM ammo.

Right now, the Grendel pistol has a bit more recoil than others I own since it's just so much smaller and compact.

I'm thinking what that's going to do to my sight picture with a 6.5CM, and I'm not liking the idea of losing FOV of the target. Could be tamed with Lo-mass carrier, adjustable gas, SCS, but I would really prefer as compact as possible and low/minimal recoil.

Maybe shoot 107gr SMKs. Computer tells me a 12.5" 6.5Cm will push a 107gr SMK to 2682fps.

Another idea is to do a 6mm AR pistol, but right now, the Grendel pistol with a huge factory ammo support base is doing better than I expected of it by a wide margin.

Wish I would have gotten one years ago. Now I know what Dave Fortier means when he says his 12.5" Grendel is his favorite to shoot.
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
After what I saw this weekend with performance from the lowest BC 123gr factory round out of a 12" Grendel to 800yds, I think the Grendel pistol is going to become my first-grab AR15 for anything.

POI was stupid-consistent even with a 1-4x24 GRSC discontinued scope.

I'm looking at what my drop will be with better bullets, and it's silly.
Ok, this is probably going to have to happen. Do you have any experience w/ SBR/pistol length 6.5 Creedmoor? I am wondering because I already have a solid stock of good 6.5 CM ammo. At the same time, I realize it would be chopping the legs off of part of what makes that cartridge great... velocity. The Grendel looks great, I just always hesitate when potentially adding a new round to the existing collection.
If you plan on using it with a suppressor, make sure your can is rated to handle that short of a barrel.
It's one of the first things I thought of walking away from the range last Saturday...

What would a 12" 6.5CM pistol/SBR do?

That's also a good point on suppressor rating.

One of the reasons I went 12" on 6.5 Grendel was so that I don't exceed the minimum barrel length (go under) that the TBAC Ti Ultra 5 is rated to, which is 11".

I also have a pile of 6.5CM ammo.

Right now, the Grendel pistol has a bit more recoil than others I own since it's just so much smaller and compact.

I'm thinking what that's going to do to my sight picture with a 6.5CM, and I'm not liking the idea of losing FOV of the target. Could be tamed with Lo-mass carrier, adjustable gas, SCS, but I would really prefer as compact as possible and low/minimal recoil.

Maybe shoot 107gr SMKs. Computer tells me a 12.5" 6.5Cm will push a 107gr SMK to 2682fps.

Another idea is to do a 6mm AR pistol, but right now, the Grendel pistol with a huge factory ammo support base is doing better than I expected of it by a wide margin.

Wish I would have gotten one years ago. Now I know what Dave Fortier means when he says his 12.5" Grendel is his favorite to shoot.
Me thinks muzzle blast and recoil is going to be a Beast! And the extra unburned powder would be harder on your can. Plus will the ocular of the optic kiss your brow very often in different positions? The Grendel's light recoil is part of it's success. Plus how bad is the bolt carrier gonna beat up the extension tube and buffer?
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 11:04:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

I have all of them across multiple rifle types, bolt and gas, including .260 Rem, 6.5CM, 6.5 Grendel.

A 155gr Palma even at Palma brass speeds and exceeding .308 MAP in a big heavy bolt gun that you would never carry around is easily undercut by a lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR15 shooting 130gr Nosler RDF.

155gr Palma at 3000fps from 30" barrel still has 2.5 mils of drift at 1000yds.

130gr RDF going 500fps slower at 15,000psi less chamber from an AR15, less than half the recoil and muzzle climb/blast, is 2.3 mils, from 22-24" barrel, not even a bolt gun. That's using G7 drag model as well.

When I run my numbers and look at where my .260 Rem or 6.5CM hits 6.5 Grendel muzzle velocity with the exact same bullet, I see about a 150-200yd advantage for the larger 6.5-08 class of cartridges.

The statements about how much better 6.5CM and .260 Rem are over 6.5 Grendel are almost always exaggerated by people who have never looked at the charts side-by-side, or have shot 123gr out of Grendel next to 140gr in a 6.5-08 type bolt gun.

Guess what? You can load 140s in a Grendel bolt gun too, but I prefer 130gr class in all of them on the top end.

There are some clear performance advantages for 150-200yd more supersonic reach, and you see these at the farther ranges and in variable wind conditions at distance, so there is a clear argument in favor of 6.5-08, but we're talking 800yds to ELR territory.

Even my 12" Grendel is supersonic past 1000yds with 123gr Scenar, SMK, or 130gr RDF.
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Is that a new style palma, or are u using. 450bc old palma? I'm not going to argue with u, grendel seems to work good for u at ur lofty elevation. At 300'asl, the grendel numbers don't look as exciting
Link Posted: 5/31/2018 3:51:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Is that a new style palma, or are u using. 450bc old palma? I'm not going to argue with u, grendel seems to work good for u at ur lofty elevation. At 300'asl, the grendel numbers don't look as exciting
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

I have all of them across multiple rifle types, bolt and gas, including .260 Rem, 6.5CM, 6.5 Grendel.

A 155gr Palma even at Palma brass speeds and exceeding .308 MAP in a big heavy bolt gun that you would never carry around is easily undercut by a lightweight 6.5 Grendel AR15 shooting 130gr Nosler RDF.

155gr Palma at 3000fps from 30" barrel still has 2.5 mils of drift at 1000yds.

130gr RDF going 500fps slower at 15,000psi less chamber from an AR15, less than half the recoil and muzzle climb/blast, is 2.3 mils, from 22-24" barrel, not even a bolt gun. That's using G7 drag model as well.

When I run my numbers and look at where my .260 Rem or 6.5CM hits 6.5 Grendel muzzle velocity with the exact same bullet, I see about a 150-200yd advantage for the larger 6.5-08 class of cartridges.

The statements about how much better 6.5CM and .260 Rem are over 6.5 Grendel are almost always exaggerated by people who have never looked at the charts side-by-side, or have shot 123gr out of Grendel next to 140gr in a 6.5-08 type bolt gun.

Guess what? You can load 140s in a Grendel bolt gun too, but I prefer 130gr class in all of them on the top end.

There are some clear performance advantages for 150-200yd more supersonic reach, and you see these at the farther ranges and in variable wind conditions at distance, so there is a clear argument in favor of 6.5-08, but we're talking 800yds to ELR territory.

Even my 12" Grendel is supersonic past 1000yds with 123gr Scenar, SMK, or 130gr RDF.
Is that a new style palma, or are u using. 450bc old palma? I'm not going to argue with u, grendel seems to work good for u at ur lofty elevation. At 300'asl, the grendel numbers don't look as exciting
No, that was using new #2156 Palma with .504 G1 BC, which drops to .470 BC once it goes under 2700fps. I used the .504 number for the comparison in .308's favor.

Yes, down at sea level, you need more barrel length in 6.5 Grendel, but if we're comparing apples to apples, and you use a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun, you're biting the heels of a 6.5CM at that point.
Link Posted: 5/31/2018 3:56:06 PM EDT
I've got a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun is next on the list. The weight penalty of the large frame guns isn't worth it for me. Saying that, a Larue UU big block kit is a great value as well.
Link Posted: 5/31/2018 4:04:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:

Is that a new style palma, or are u using. 450bc old palma? I'm not going to argue with u, grendel seems to work good for u at ur lofty elevation. At 300'asl, the grendel numbers don't look as exciting
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I'm at sea level and my 129 ABLR handloads @ 2430 fps are pretty exciting coming from a suppressed AR-15 with 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 6/2/2018 10:21:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

No, that was using new #2156 Palma with .504 G1 BC, which drops to .470 BC once it goes under 2700fps. I used the .504 number for the comparison in .308's favor.

Yes, down at sea level, you need more barrel length in 6.5 Grendel, but if we're comparing apples to apples, and you use a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun, you're biting the heels of a 6.5CM at that point.
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Possibly, never heard any real numbers on a grendel bolt gun. For my comparison id use my aiae 6.5creed, .615bc at 2850. That's actual trued bc verified to 1400yds. What can a 24" barreled grendel bolt gun do, not being snarky, just curious? I always thought the grendel case capacity was too small for 140 class, and ideally suited for 107-123. Of the 2 18" ar grendels I've had, I never really got much more than 2540 fps with 123 amax or smk.
Link Posted: 6/2/2018 8:19:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Possibly, never heard any real numbers on a grendel bolt gun. For my comparison id use my aiae 6.5creed, .615bc at 2850. That's actual trued bc verified to 1400yds. What can a 24" barreled grendel bolt gun do, not being snarky, just curious? I always thought the grendel case capacity was too small for 140 class, and ideally suited for 107-123. Of the 2 18" ar grendels I've had, I never really got much more than 2540 fps with 123 amax or smk.
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

No, that was using new #2156 Palma with .504 G1 BC, which drops to .470 BC once it goes under 2700fps. I used the .504 number for the comparison in .308's favor.

Yes, down at sea level, you need more barrel length in 6.5 Grendel, but if we're comparing apples to apples, and you use a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun, you're biting the heels of a 6.5CM at that point.
Possibly, never heard any real numbers on a grendel bolt gun. For my comparison id use my aiae 6.5creed, .615bc at 2850. That's actual trued bc verified to 1400yds. What can a 24" barreled grendel bolt gun do, not being snarky, just curious? I always thought the grendel case capacity was too small for 140 class, and ideally suited for 107-123. Of the 2 18" ar grendels I've had, I never really got much more than 2540 fps with 123 amax or smk.
6.5 Grendel projectile load range
There has been tested load data for 144gr Lapua FMJ Grendel from the start, with Lapua/Vihtavuori 156gr data not too long after SAAMI was approved.

I have a bunch of 140gr AMAX that I have in the line to test in my 22" bolt gun.

One guy with a particularly fast 24" AR15 Grendel barrel has taken 142gr SMK up to 2575fps using CFE223 and Hodgdon's LeveRevolution with 2.295" COL.

.260 Rem, 6.5CM vs 6.5 Grendel with same barrel lengths and same bullets
As with every other comparison I've done looking at all of my rifles' data between my .260 Rem, 6.5 CM, and 6.5 Grendel, you'll cut off anywhere from 150-225yds of performance from the .260/6.5CM by going down to the Micro action.

If I load the 140gr Hornady even at 2500fps from a 22"-24" Grendel, at sea level/standard atmospherics, I'm supersonic to 1200yds, with 2.3 mils of drift at 1000yds.

If bump up to the .260 Rem with the exact same bullet and exceed max loads by 90fps to reach 2850fps, it's supersonic to 1425yds, with 1.8 mils of drift at 1000yds.

I personally have only been able to get the 140gr and 142gr target bullets to 2760fps without pushing over SAAMI MAP in .260 Remington, but those loads are still supersonic out to 1375yds, with 1.9 mils of drift at 1000yds.

All ballistics calculations were done using more realistic G7 drag model, not G1.

6.5 Creedmoor definitely has more ideal projectile to powder column arrangement due to the short case and long allowable ogive, whereas when you get into even 123gr in 6.5 Grendel with the SMK and Scenar, you're pushing well down past the shoulder/neck junction into the propellant column.

Implications for the Micro Action Class of Rifles
I think the Micro action bolt gun pushing a 130gr Berger or Nosler RDF is a smokin' little combo, since the rifle is so easy to carry and shoot positions with, and you don't really give up a lot to a .260 Rem or 6.5CM unless you're competing from more bench or prone positions in a match.

I suspect you'd have an advantage in a match with a lot of positional shooting, lots of field stages with movement, and matches lasting 2-3 days. We're talking about 2" of wind drift advantage to the Creedmoor or .260 Rem at 700yds.

I'm not a huge bolt gun guy, even though that's how I was raised, but my mind has been running wild with some different ideas for a lightweight or compact match rifle built on the smaller action running a Grendel-based case. You're a bit more competitive for sure running a 6mm Grendel, or .224 AR pushing 95gr SMK, versus 6.5 Grendel for sure.

I'm thinking about an integrally suppressed 6.5 Grendel bolt gun with folding stock, chassis, etc. Something like The Fix would be pretty sick in 6.5 Grendel or 6mm AR. You'd have Dasher performance in a smaller action basically.
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 8:41:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Possibly, never heard any real numbers on a grendel bolt gun. For my comparison id use my aiae 6.5creed, .615bc at 2850. That's actual trued bc verified to 1400yds. What can a 24" barreled grendel bolt gun do, not being snarky, just curious? I always thought the grendel case capacity was too small for 140 class, and ideally suited for 107-123. Of the 2 18" ar grendels I've had, I never really got much more than 2540 fps with 123 amax or smk.
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Originally Posted By DH243:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

No, that was using new #2156 Palma with .504 G1 BC, which drops to .470 BC once it goes under 2700fps. I used the .504 number for the comparison in .308's favor.

Yes, down at sea level, you need more barrel length in 6.5 Grendel, but if we're comparing apples to apples, and you use a 6.5 Grendel bolt gun, you're biting the heels of a 6.5CM at that point.
Possibly, never heard any real numbers on a grendel bolt gun. For my comparison id use my aiae 6.5creed, .615bc at 2850. That's actual trued bc verified to 1400yds. What can a 24" barreled grendel bolt gun do, not being snarky, just curious? I always thought the grendel case capacity was too small for 140 class, and ideally suited for 107-123. Of the 2 18" ar grendels I've had, I never really got much more than 2540 fps with 123 amax or smk.
The best I can answer this is: if you set realistic goals and practice a very fun time. I carry a 18" gas piston for the ranch rifle and it's accounted for a lot of dead pigs and coyotes. And I don't consider that rifle a precision rifle cause it's a little over an moa most of the time.
People don't take weight into consideration until they carry a rifle daily. They also don't think about how the rifle vibrating in a gun rack effects it. The upper and lower halfs wear and the gun gets looser over time. Now as far as comparison it's just the same as comparing anythingelse of the same caliber but more case capacity.

Personally I like both and can't wait for ruger to offer an RPR in the Grendel to go with my .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. But the magazine is going to be the what kills that dream just like it discontinued the .223rem.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 7:09:21 PM EDT
Thanks guys for the info. I'd think that if 2760 fps in a 260 is saami max, 2575 in a grendel, with same 140 class bullet, would be way past saami max. The 6 grendel does appeal to me, the case capacity of grendel seems more inline with 95-107gr bullets.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 7:13:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sparkyD:

The best I can answer this is: if you set realistic goals and practice a very fun time. I carry a 18" gas piston for the ranch rifle and it's accounted for a lot of dead pigs and coyotes. And I don't consider that rifle a precision rifle cause it's a little over an moa most of the time.
People don't take weight into consideration until they carry a rifle daily. They also don't think about how the rifle vibrating in a gun rack effects it. The upper and lower halfs wear and the gun gets looser over time. Now as far as comparison it's just the same as comparing anythingelse of the same caliber but more case capacity.

Personally I like both and can't wait for ruger to offer an RPR in the Grendel to go with my .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. But the magazine is going to be the what kills that dream just like it discontinued the .223rem.
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I've modified aics mags to feed 6 be with great reliability. U might try hitting up orkan at primal rights, he makes a spacer and follower for ai mags. I posted a how to on converting ai mags to 6br on the hide 6 or 7 yrs ago. His system is identical to mine now
Link Posted: 6/12/2018 12:00:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sschefer:
In my opinion, the advantages you'll have with a 6.5 C on an AR10 platform will be the mag capacity and semi auto capability. Those are your only gains but that's just my opinion. I don't believe it will ever shoot with the same precision that your bolt gun should with the right loads. That said and if I was in your situation I would probably go with the Grendel. It will be more nimble and will still shoot well out to 500 yards without an excessive amount of burdensome ballistics calculations. It'll take some practice but once you get to know it, I think you'll like it. I have an Alexander Arms 6.5 G upper on an 80% lower and it shoots nice tight groups. If I was going to do a 6.5 C it would definitely be a bolt gun. The biggest drawback to the 6.5 G is ammunition availability and cost but if you reload, the supplies are readily available.
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Gas guns are generally harder to shoot due to triggers, Lock times and a number of other variables. Fundamentals has to be on point in order to properly deal with recoil impulses. Their are many gas guns out there that shoot just a s good as bolt guns. 95% I'm willing to best it the shooter. And once you get into compromised positions, The increased recoil and 3 recoil impulses (compared to 1 in a bolt gun) really start to tax and tire out a shooter. You can get sloppy behind a bolt gun with your fundamentals and still shoot good. Not so much with a gas gun.

Scott
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