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Posted: 9/7/2021 3:37:09 PM EDT
I'm sure similar stuff has been asked in the past so please forgive me, but...
Just put together and zero'd my first serious bolt gun and decided to ditch the MOA scope I've known. As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. I feel like someone not knowing how to swim being thrown in the deep end currently. Time to learn and understand it all because I'd eventually like to try a local PRS match Thanks! |
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Posted: 9/7/2021 4:20:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Call the folks out at ETTS range in Waxahachie, or the folks at Tiger Valley outside of Waco. They do long range shooting at both places and can probably recommend a few people, books, sources for info. Oh and a web search will get ya some stuff to read.
I'm a Mil-Dot slide ruler and never needed anything else for my purposes. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2021 5:49:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ballisticxlr]
[#2]
Easiest way is to stop trying to link linear units of measure to angular units of measure. You're just confusing yourself. If it's .1 mils it's .1mils. Don't waste your time trying to say, "ok if it's .1mils and it's 500 yards away then it's X inches across."
If you're trying to understand how to do reticle based range estimation then pick a unit of linear measure, yards or meters and stick with it or the math gets to be a real problem to do in your head. Otherwise the essential difference is in how many clicks are between the whole numbers and nobody really cares about that either. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/7/2021 6:19:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Feuerhand]
[#3]
Originally Posted By ShiftSix: As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. Thanks! A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. |
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Posted: 9/7/2021 6:37:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. I think this sums up my confusion well, except if you miss by .2 mils. How would I know what 0.2 mils looks like or are saying to measure it with the scope reticle? |
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Posted: 9/7/2021 7:19:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Exactly! You measure it with the reticle which is the ruler in front of your eye. Forget inches or and linear. When taking a shot at a target measure it and you will know how wide it is in mils so you can figure your wind hold position. Doesn't matter how many inches wide it is. The sooner you forget inches the better.
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Posted: 8/19/2022 9:47:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ShiftSix: I think this sums up my confusion well, except if you miss by .2 mils. How would I know what 0.2 mils looks like or are saying to measure it with the scope reticle? |
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Posted: 8/19/2022 9:53:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Get a Mildot Master off Amazon. Kind of a slide rule and it’s a useful tool for calculating solutions and getting your head around the concept.
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USA
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Posted: 8/20/2022 12:37:55 AM EDT
[#8]
If your scope is first focal plane, you can use the reticle as a ruler at any magnification. That's it. Missed low by .3 mils? Come up .3 mils.
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2022 10:13:27 AM EDT
[#9]
Maybe the trick here is understanding that a MIL, just like MOA, is an angular measurement. You're measuring an angle, just like degrees. You're not measuring distance. "Mils to meters" is analogous to "degrees to miles".
So, yes, you multiply/divide by a thousand times your distance to translate between angular and linear, if that's what you want to do. (Maybe for range estimation.) But, if you can see through a spotting scope or riflescope or whatever, you just observe that your impact was, say, 2.5 mil to the right... And so you either dial, or adjust your aim (maybe in the xmas tree?), by 2.5mil. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2022 2:59:08 AM EDT
[#10]
To make it simple, a milrad is 3.6 inches at 100 yds. A 10th of a milrad at 100 yds is .36 inches, or to put it another way, just shy of 3/8 inches (.375"). So do the math:
3/8 inch at 100 3/4 inch at 200 1 1/8 inches at 300 Etc., etc., etc. Hope this helps you some. Jon |
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Posted: 12/27/2022 9:24:23 AM EDT
[#11]
To make it simpler, 1 mil is 1 mil at any range. .1 mil is .1 mil at any range. Linear is a waste of time and add to confusion and does nothing for the shooter as the scope is not in linear. It's in angular mils.
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Posted: 12/27/2022 10:06:14 AM EDT
[#12]
 Understanding Mils (Milliradians) | Long-Range Rifle Shooting with Ryan Cleckner |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 9:12:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sirveaux]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curmudgeon762: Get a Mildot Master off Amazon. Kind of a slide rule and it’s a useful tool for calculating solutions and getting your head around the concept. Comes with a book that shows you how it works, even comes with some examples. Then go outside with a mil reticle optic and mil some things for size and distance for a while. Eventually you go from using the Mildot Master to just doing it in your head. 27.8. 1x3.6x27.8=100 (almost) 1mil on an item 3.6 inches tall times multiplier of 27.8 gets you range in yards of 100 yards. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:32:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Oh yeah everyone can do that in their head. LOL Doing things in your head is not a good idea.
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USA
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Posted: 5/9/2023 10:10:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Oh yeah everyone can do that in their head. LOL Doing things in your head is not a good idea. "Use the force, Luke!" |
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USA
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Posted: 5/9/2023 10:31:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ballisticxlr: Easiest way is to stop trying to link linear units of measure to angular units of measure. You're just confusing yourself. If it's .1 mils it's .1mils. Don't waste your time trying to say, "ok if it's .1mils and it's 500 yards away then it's X inches across." If you're trying to understand how to do reticle based range estimation then pick a unit of linear measure, yards or meters and stick with it or the math gets to be a real problem to do in your head. Otherwise the essential difference is in how many clicks are between the whole numbers and nobody really cares about that either. This. I didn’t get it for years. I was stuck in the old Leupold mildot reticle and 1/4” click world from the eighties. I used to practice conversion math. (that would take me ten minutes to recollect now). I used to do the range estimation math on objects, trucks, autos, tires, human, even the ubiquitous soda can had a range estimating factor. I lost all the math from disuse. Once I saw the light of observe 5 mils, hold or dial 5 mils and done I was  .I do still have a lack of uniformity though. I have a couple of old Leupold and Nikons with MOA or IPHY knobs and mildots. As well as mil/mil NF scopes and a couple all MOA fancy reticle hunting scopes from Leupold and Trijicon. |
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Posted: 8/20/2023 4:50:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Exactly! You measure it with the reticle which is the ruler in front of your eye. Forget inches or and linear. When taking a shot at a target measure it and you will know how wide it is in mils so you can figure your wind hold position. Doesn't matter how many inches wide it is. The sooner you forget inches the better. So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. |
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Posted: 8/20/2023 5:39:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wheelgun: So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. Yes you can and I have years back. Most say go mils now as a majority of long range shooters and competitors use mils so easier to talk to each other without conversions. Also most mil scopes are 10 mils per turn and can get most to 1000 in one turn. Even with 25 moa per turn it's tougher. Other than those little things there is no reason as both will work the same. |
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Posted: 8/20/2023 5:51:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Download the Shooter Ready program
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Posted: 8/20/2023 5:53:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NoSightPicture]
[#20]
Double tap
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Posted: 8/20/2023 7:58:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Yes you can and I have years back. Most say go mils now as a majority of long range shooters and competitors use mils so easier to talk to each other without conversions. Also most mil scopes are 10 mils per turn and can get most to 1000 in one turn. Even with 25 moa per turn it's tougher. Other than those little things there is no reason as both will work the same. Both of those reasons make sense. A friend keeps telling me mil is better and sent me a video where the guy says moa sucks. His reasoning is basically that moa sucks because most people use mils and because you can use a mil reticle to measure where your bullet strikes. I get if you're shooting with others it makes it easier to communicate, but just because everyone else does it is a retarded reason in my opinion. And I can understand wanting to dial less. I shoot long range strictly for fun ro hear the steel clang so I couldn't understand why an all moa scope wouldn't work. Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/21/2023 10:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DM1975]
[#22]
For me mils are easier to use because they are smaller numbers. Where you might go 3 or 5 mils with a scope, the same would be like 15 or 20 MOA. Plus you’re dealing with .1 or .5 or .7 rather than a quarter, or half, or three quarters. It’s just easier for me to visualize.
Associate mils between your clicks and your reticle. That’s it. If you are using mils but are an MOA guy and need kind of a base line to go off of then remember it’s three clicks instead of four for one MOA. That’s all you really need to know. You don’t need a mil dot master at all unless you are ranging a target. That is the only thing it’s really good for. I have not touched mine in years (decades) since I made the switch to mil/mil scopes. If you had to do much math to shoot I’d have to throw rock’s instead. |
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Posted: 8/21/2023 12:04:41 PM EDT
[#23]
A mildot master can also be used for angle fire but if shooting on a flat range and not ranging your targets using the reticle then yeah they aren’t needed.
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Posted: 8/21/2023 1:22:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: A mildot master can also be used for angle fire but if shooting on a flat range and not ranging your targets using the reticle then yeah they aren’t needed. True. I’m spoiled by using a range finder that can do that stuff these days. That or a slope doper. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 1:25:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Oh yeah everyone can do that in their head. LOL Doing things in your head is not a good idea. You can with practice. Now depending on what you're shooting and where, or what distance you're measuring and why, you might want to use other tools. I've used mils for distance when rangefinders die, and have confirmed with GPS on distances that get me good approximations. Depending if I'm walking it or shooting it, it can work fine. But applications vary and degrees of precision needed for a given task can vary. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 10:05:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Rob01]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sirveaux: You can with practice. Now depending on what you're shooting and where, or what distance you're measuring and why, you might want to use other tools. I've used mils for distance when rangefinders die, and have confirmed with GPS on distances that get me good approximations. Depending if I'm walking it or shooting it, it can work fine. But applications vary and degrees of precision needed for a given task can vary. That's the point. You don't need to practice something that is not needed. I have ranged with the reticle a lot and can do it just fine but not in my head and I would never recommend anyone do that. See you next year for the reply. 
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Posted: 4/8/2024 6:56:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: That's the point. You don't need to practice something that is not needed. I have ranged with the reticle a lot and can do it just fine but not in my head and I would never recommend anyone do that. See you next year for the reply. A little quicker than that...  OP was trying to understand mils back when this began. I find the ranging aspect of it helps the whole thing make sense. Sure, you can have a spotter say "adjust 2 mils left" and just go by the hash marks and simplify as "it's angular measurement", as that's all that's really needed, but is that a full understanding of what's going on? I like the idea of being able to function with as little gear as possible, and rangefinders and Kestrels are great, but not the same as just being able to do the math. It's like a kid learning arithmetic or multiplication/division on paper and in their head vs with a calculator, computer, or pad. Sure, they get the right answer, but do they know how they got it? If you want to learn/understand mils, I think that's probably the better way to go. Mildot Master is just a slide rule analog calculator that lets you know you did it right. And from there, you know mils. And then you can just lazily go "yeah, adjust 2 mils left", while thoroughly knowing that'll work - and more importantly, with the gear afterwards, it's much faster. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 5:31:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Feuerhand: Originally Posted By ShiftSix: As I understand my new scope (Leupold MK5 w/ PR2-MIL reticle) has 1/10 mil adjustments which equals 1cm at 100m, right? That's basically where my knowledge ends lol I'd like to know everyones favorite literature, youtube tutorials, equations etc to get my head to think in metric or understand quickly how to convert if needed. Thanks! A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. That works until one realizes their scope is MIL reticle but MOA turret - stupidest thing ever (I'm sure it was a good idea at the time). |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 1:57:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wheelgun: So if your scope is all MOA, can't you just do the same thing? And if you can, why does everyone say mil is better than moa? Seems to me one isnt better than the other, they're just different. Because mil is smaller numbers. Small number make easy for caveman brain shoot bullet far. |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 8:53:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Feuerhand: A mil is 1 unit at 1000 units. 1 inch at 1000 inches. 1 meter at 1000 meters. That makes it 0.1m at 100m (so yes, 1cm). But like the above poster wrote, just think of it as mils. If you miss by 0.2 mils, adjust by 0.2 mils, don't worry about the distance unless you're doing range estimation. I like Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook". It's a great beginner resource and reference. I have a comment and question about that since this is a "basics" forum. Strictly speaking, from trigonometric view, that angular measurement adjustment is exact only as long as the bullet travels in a straight line. Real bullet trajectories aren't straight lines. In order to get an exact answer, you would have figure out how much the trajectory changes from one angle to another at whatever distance and conditions you're shooting in. It's not exactly linear. However, it sounds like experienced precision rifle shooters are saying it's close enough for their needs. Right? |
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