Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
Durkin Tactical Franklin Armory
User Panel

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 7/13/2016 10:26:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
AR-15 Gas Ports:  Krieger versus Ballistic Advantage



The first bore-scope view shown below shows the gas port on a new Krieger AR-15 barrel.  Note the absence of any burrs at the port and the beveled surface leading into the gas port.  Also note the whole gas port is positioned in a groove of the barrel; no part of the gas port cuts into a land.




Attachment Attached File





The next bore-scope view shows the gas port (at 6 o’clock) on a new Ballistic Advantage "Modern Series" AR-15 barrel, taken from a different angle than that of the Krieger barrel to show the large burr at the gas port.  I wasn’t able to remove this burr with a cleaning rod, so it will have to be shot out.  Also note that part of the gas port cuts into one of the lands.




Attachment Attached File






This illustrates just one small example of the expertise and time that you’re paying for when buying a top-tier AR-15 barrel.



Link Posted: 7/13/2016 10:44:39 PM EDT
[#1]
From my discussion with krieger a while ago, they do not finish their AR-15 barrels like most.

They actually drill the gas port FIRST, to ensure it is in a groove. This is a technique carried over from making M14 barrels. The fact that they put the entire port into the groove is also why they will not sell finished semi-auto barrels (M14 or AR platform) with 5R rifling. You can still get one if you buy a 5R blank, but someone else will have to drill the port.

After drilling the port, they then time the barrel extension. If you look on your barrel, there should be a mark just in front of the extension that indicates the 12 o'clock position. Probably there to help with timing.
Link Posted: 7/13/2016 10:48:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
From my discussion with krieger a while ago, they do not finish their AR-15 barrels like most.

They actually drill the gas port FIRST, to ensure it is in a groove. This is a technique carried over from making M14 barrels. The fact that they put the entire port into the groove is also why they will not sell finished semi-auto barrels (M14 or AR platform) with 5R rifling. You can still get one if you buy a 5R blank, but someone else will have to drill the port.

After drilling the port, they then time the barrel extension. If you look on your barrel, there should be a mark just in front of the extension that indicates the 12 o'clock position. Probably there to help with timing.
View Quote

This is correct.
Link Posted: 7/13/2016 10:52:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon] [#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:

If you look on your barrel, there should be a mark just in front of the extension that indicates the 12 o'clock position.

View Quote

Link Posted: 7/15/2016 7:00:16 PM EDT
[#4]
The attention to detail Krieger applies is extraordinary.  That BA barrel is probably not only "just fine," but will probably shoot really well.  But Krieger's keeping the entire gas port in a groove means that it has nothing getting in the way of the bullet's contact with the rifling, and probably gets a tiny bit better seal when the bullet passes the port.

I'm amazed at how they could actually bevel the bore side of the gas port!

Molon, what bore scope do you use?
Link Posted: 7/16/2016 12:40:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
The attention to detail Krieger applies is extraordinary.  That BA barrel is probably not only "just fine," but will probably shoot really well.  But Krieger's keeping the entire gas port in a groove means that it has nothing getting in the way of the bullet's contact with the rifling, and probably gets a tiny bit better seal when the bullet passes the port.

I'm amazed at how they could actually bevel the bore side of the gas port!

Molon, what bore scope do you use?

View Quote



See the link below.  The camera snap-shots that I post do no justice to the quality of this instrument.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/303817/hawkeye-deluxe-borescope-17-slim-focusing-kit


...
Link Posted: 7/16/2016 9:17:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:
See the link below.  The camera snap-shots that I post do no justice to the quality of this instrument.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/303817/hawkeye-deluxe-borescope-17-slim-focusing-kit


...
View Quote

Very nice!  Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 12:32:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Not disputing any quality difference but it should he mentioned there's a 100% price difference between your samples and a not yet measured performance difference (that I'm aware of...not a regular. Might have missed one of your many excellent posts) ;-) I'm very positive Lilja does better. Love to own one, and the right ammo for it. Currently I'm OK with BA and quality boxed ammo.
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 1:17:42 AM EDT
[#8]
That must be part of why my 6mmAR shoots 3/4 inch 10 shot groups at 100 yards.
Krieger makes good barrels.
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 2:03:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
The attention to detail Krieger applies is extraordinary.  That BA barrel is probably not only "just fine," but will probably shoot really well.  But Krieger's keeping the entire gas port in a groove means that it has nothing getting in the way of the bullet's contact with the rifling, and probably gets a tiny bit better seal when the bullet passes the port.

I'm amazed at how they could actually bevel the bore side of the gas port!

Molon, what bore scope do you use?
View Quote



That's actually not that hard.  Anyone doing production drilling of gas ports can do it.  They choose not to.  The tooling is available to anyone.  Deburring/chamferring the inside of small radial holes is a common necessity in a number of machining industries.
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 11:02:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:



. . .  a not yet measured performance difference . . .


View Quote



The accuracy/precision produced by 5.56mm/223 Remington Krieger AR-15 barrels has been well documented.

All of the 10-shot groups pictured below were fired from AR-15s that have 5.56mm/223 Remington Krieger AR-15 barrels.


Attachment Attached File



Attachment Attached File



Attachment Attached File



Attachment Attached File



....
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 1:02:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kuraki:


That's actually not that hard.  Anyone doing production drilling of gas ports can do it.  They choose not to.  The tooling is available to anyone.  Deburring/chamferring the inside of small radial holes is a common necessity in a number of machining industries.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kuraki:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I'm amazed at how they could actually bevel the bore side of the gas port!


That's actually not that hard.  Anyone doing production drilling of gas ports can do it.  They choose not to.  The tooling is available to anyone.  Deburring/chamferring the inside of small radial holes is a common necessity in a number of machining industries.

Without derailing this too much, how does one bevel the far side of a hole bored through a barrel?  I can't picture how to do it...
Link Posted: 7/17/2016 5:36:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 11:19:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:
Then you should have no difficulty posting pics of 10-shot groups, fired from AR-15s that have 5.56mm/223 Remington Lilja barrels, that are "better" than the groups I posted.
View Quote


I wish! I cant afford a Lilja, that's just stuff of dreams for me. I wasn't challenging you or your groups I only was saying I have no doubt that the Lilja barrel is a better performer than the Ballistic Advantage barrel. Plus there's no way I'm posting better groups than you pretty much ever in my life - I know I am not that good of a shot.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 8:16:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:

. . . I only was saying I have no doubt that the Lilja barrel is a better performer than the Ballistic Advantage barrel.

View Quote



"I see," said the blind man.


...
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 3:53:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Molon,



Thank you once again for your time and effort in putting out this info.  




Looking forward to seeing the accuracy results of the BA barrel.
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 7:19:59 PM EDT
[#16]
interesting thread.  I have been wishing the gun world had a thing like UL.  I can find out which products are different thanks to the box but in the gun world some barrel makers won't even tell you if the barrel is chrome lined.
Link Posted: 8/30/2016 3:09:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lennyo3034] [#17]
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
Link Posted: 8/30/2016 8:35:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Im glad you decided to bring it up here it is very helpful.
Link Posted: 8/30/2016 8:43:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
View Quote

I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.

Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 12:32:16 AM EDT
[#20]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:





I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.



Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:



Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:

I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?


I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.



Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?66814-Drilling-gas-Port-AR15&p=554782#post554782



 
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 12:50:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.

Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?66814-Drilling-gas-Port-AR15&p=554782#post554782
 

Pffft Robert Whitley. What does he know?
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 6:44:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: winddummy82] [#22]

Molon, thanks again for another great report! arfcom needs more posters like you.





its obvious Krieger has set the standard when it comes to barrel making!















 
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 7:10:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:

I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.

Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.

Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?


You should contact Krieger and have them explain it.  

...
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 11:29:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Aircraft deburring tools come in handy when removing possible stress risers and burrs from blind holes . They are also simple to make . Just imagine an aircraft rivet length selector with a sharp edge .
Link Posted: 8/31/2016 9:53:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:


You should contact Krieger and have them explain it.  

...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

I had to go see.  WOW!  What a bunch of crap.

Molon, one question on "the other site" was "what effect does gas port placement have on accuracy"?  Just from looking at the photo I can hazard a few guesses.  What is your take?


You should contact Krieger and have them explain it.  

...

I think I will.  Especially after reading the thread HighpowerRifleBrony linked to!  Those folks slung the poo ever so politely (mostly), and it came down to "my experience" and "it ain't handed down from God that you gotta put it in a groove."  Wow!
Link Posted: 9/19/2016 8:28:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Without derailing this too much, how does one bevel the far side of a hole bored through a barrel?  I can't picture how to do it...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Kuraki:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I'm amazed at how they could actually bevel the bore side of the gas port!


That's actually not that hard.  Anyone doing production drilling of gas ports can do it.  They choose not to.  The tooling is available to anyone.  Deburring/chamferring the inside of small radial holes is a common necessity in a number of machining industries.

Without derailing this too much, how does one bevel the far side of a hole bored through a barrel?  I can't picture how to do it...


Several options here.
http://cogsdill.com/toolprogram/deburring-tools/
Link Posted: 9/19/2016 10:38:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lennyo3034:
I just read Molon's same thread on TOS, and the responses. What a shitshow. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
View Quote


If you're talking about M4C, that whole place is a dirt-shooter shitshow of shills.  
Link Posted: 8/17/2018 2:56:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Molon:
The next bore-scope view shows the gas port (at 6 o’clock) on a new Ballistic Advantage "Modern Series" AR-15 barrel, taken from a different angle than that of the Krieger barrel to show the large burr at the gas port.  I wasn’t able to remove this burr with a cleaning rod, so it will have to be shot out.
View Quote
Re-reading this nice thread (without getting borescope tool envy) I was wondering if this is typically a process where, pretty quickly, the gun suddenly "comes around" or something that is gradually noticed over hundreds or thousands of rounds?

Thank you.
Link Posted: 8/18/2018 1:02:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06] [#29]
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 3:02:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Some years back I stopped by the Krieger booth at Shot Show and chatted with them. I told them how impressed I was with the upper they put together for me with their barrel. I asked how in the heck do you get the port in the groove?
He said, "math".
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 5:25:08 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
Some years back I stopped by the Krieger booth at Shot Show and chatted with them. I told them how impressed I was with the upper they put together for me with their barrel. I asked how in the heck do you get the port in the groove?
He said, "math".
View Quote
I would add 'paying attention to the tiny details' that is what you are paying for with a Krieger barrel.
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 1:35:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
I won't be able to shoot it until next weekend.

I haven't had a chance to clean the barrel , since I was curious about the general fouling and copper fouling the barrel was producing.. and want to look that with the Bore scope.

I will try to run a felt pellet down the bore and the take a bore cam photo of the burr after the first of many 1gal Ziploc bags worth of a spent cases.
View Quote
Keeping this tagged & would appreciate what you find, and thanks for the feedback.
Link Posted: 8/22/2018 3:46:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 8/23/2018 6:28:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nihilsum] [#34]
If you had a port bur, it should have burned away relatively quickly. Mine was gone in the first 50-100 rounds.

This is a .223 wylde BA match barrel when new:




It shoots well now, but produced a lot of copper fouling while breaking in.
Link Posted: 8/23/2018 9:14:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Was that unfired and cleaned?
Link Posted: 8/24/2018 11:07:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06] [#36]
Link Posted: 8/24/2018 10:06:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Was that unfired and cleaned?
View Quote
From the manufacturer as it shipped. Appears to have been test fired.
Link Posted: 9/15/2018 6:10:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KalmanPhilter] [#38]
Those are great barrels and your photo essay shows exactly what you are paying for.   CNC machining does well, but the last 2% is in the heart of the craftsman.

I can tell the difference at 100 yards, but I don't have near enough range time over varied environments to where it makes a difference for me at 600-1000 yds where wind calls put just about every other variable down into the noise floor.  Those barrels are worth every penny if you've already spent ten times as much in serious ammo expenditure or compete at a high enough level where paying to remove doubt about equipment is more about the shooter than the hardware.

Always enjoy your posts objectivity and concise delivery.

ETA:  I just realized this is a necro-thread.  Is Molon still around?
Link Posted: 9/20/2018 1:25:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Did you bring this to the attention of BA? What did they say? I'm wondering if their performance Handon and SS Hanson barrels receive a little more attention to detail.
Link Posted: 9/20/2018 2:13:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06] [#40]
Link Posted: 9/20/2018 5:26:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KalmanPhilter:
Those are great barrels and your photo essay shows exactly what you are paying for.   CNC machining does well, but the last 2% is in the heart of the craftsman.

I can tell the difference at 100 yards, but I don't have near enough range time over varied environments to where it makes a difference for me at 600-1000 yds where wind calls put just about every other variable down into the noise floor.  Those barrels are worth every penny if you've already spent ten times as much in serious ammo expenditure or compete at a high enough level where paying to remove doubt about equipment is more about the shooter than the hardware.

Always enjoy your posts objectivity and concise delivery.

ETA:  I just realized this is a necro-thread.  Is Molon still around?
View Quote
He pops in and out sporatically.  But when he show up, he is always informative and almost never wrong.
Link Posted: 3/9/2019 3:32:06 PM EDT
[#42]
NO BRAINER...........KREIGER. ITS LIKE A VW TO A CADDY
Link Posted: 3/9/2019 7:28:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCOWANWHEELS:
NO BRAINER...........KREIGER. ITS LIKE A VW TO A CADDY
View Quote
@BCOWANWHEELS why are you bumping zombie threads and using all caps? It looks like you're spamming a tech forum.
Link Posted: 3/10/2019 12:35:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blowout] [#44]
After reading this thread, had to check the gas port location on a BA 16" premium barrel I recently assembled into a carbine.

Crappy Chinese 5mm camera scope makes it look like one of those space ship photos... but you can see the port (space ship) is in a groove and not centered and just touching a land. The camera doesn't have a focus, but for under $10 its better than nothing. I took a picture with my cell phone and that didn't help either.

Link Posted: 3/10/2019 2:42:54 AM EDT
[#45]
poor vision sorry, no spaming from me................
Link Posted: 3/10/2019 1:35:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blowout:
After reading this thread, had to check the gas port location on a BA 16" premium barrel I recently assembled into a carbine.

Crappy Chinese 5mm camera scope makes it look like one of those space ship photos... but you can see the port (space ship) is in a groove and not centered and just touching a land. The camera doesn't have a focus, but for under $10 its better than nothing. I took a picture with my cell phone and that didn't help either.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7841/32391860027_54f89f0a83_c.jpg
View Quote
That’s not bad for $10. Which one is it?
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:29:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon] [#47]
......
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 6:43:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GoatBoy] [#48]

Link Posted: 1/24/2022 6:48:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon] [#49]
....
Link Posted: 3/22/2022 4:38:15 PM EDT
[#50]
stickman used to post cool pics. thanks Molon!
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top