ARFCOM 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG Challenge (Page 5 of 36)
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Quick question for you precision junkies: Aside from the challenge and 5 for 25 grouping on paper, what is the "Ideal" group total to obtain an accurate MOA sample? I get the fact that one tight group on a 25 shot target is not an average or adequate sample, but if for argument sake I shoot a couple 5 shot groups that are sub .500, is my rifle a sub .500 shooter? There is no "universally accepted" standard. But this contest, with 5, five-shot groups on one piece of paper is a pretty good indication. And this drill measures "you and your rifle". You may have a rifle that is a sub-MOA rifle, but if you do not know what you are doing, it will not shoot 1 MOA. I would say that if you do the part in red, and you shoot 5, 5-shot groups on one sheet of paper, you can say that. YMMV. |
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Originally Posted By akethan:
They get notice by IM or a post in the thread. Some get worked up over it. Most vow to complete and never do. It's a fun challenge. 
Originally Posted By akethan:
Originally Posted By taliv:
dang that's a lot of claimin' are those all recent ? do you let people know they've been called out or do they just have to happen to browse this thread? They get notice by IM or a post in the thread. Some get worked up over it. Most vow to complete and never do. It's a fun challenge.
I'm glad you kept this alive and added the wall of claim. Good call 
My burn out is over. I am looking at a day to put up some .22lr numbers and some iron sight service numbers
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Quick question for you precision junkies: Aside from the challenge and 5 for 25 grouping on paper, what is the "Ideal" group total to obtain an accurate MOA sample? I get the fact that one tight group on a 25 shot target is not an average or adequate sample, but if for argument sake I shoot a couple 5 shot groups that are sub .500, is my rifle a sub .500 shooter? This is just my opinion... but if I can get 3 out of 5, 5-shot groups on a MOA all day target to be .500 or less, yes, I'd call that a sub .5MOA shooter. Have not gotten there yet.
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Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
There is no "universally accepted" standard. But this contest, with 5, five-shot groups on one piece of paper is a pretty good indication. And this drill measures "you and your rifle". You may have a rifle that is a sub-MOA rifle, but if you do not know what you are doing, it will not shoot 1 MOA. I would say that if you do the part in red, and you shoot 5, 5-shot groups on one sheet of paper, you can say that. YMMV. Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Quick question for you precision junkies: Aside from the challenge and 5 for 25 grouping on paper, what is the "Ideal" group total to obtain an accurate MOA sample? I get the fact that one tight group on a 25 shot target is not an average or adequate sample, but if for argument sake I shoot a couple 5 shot groups that are sub .500, is my rifle a sub .500 shooter? There is no "universally accepted" standard. But this contest, with 5, five-shot groups on one piece of paper is a pretty good indication. And this drill measures "you and your rifle". You may have a rifle that is a sub-MOA rifle, but if you do not know what you are doing, it will not shoot 1 MOA. I would say that if you do the part in red, and you shoot 5, 5-shot groups on one sheet of paper, you can say that. YMMV. Originally Posted By SpeyRod:
Most people will use one 3 shot group for bragging rights. Reality is a repeatable 5 shot group is a good indicator of a sub MOA gun/shooter combo. Few would argue with repeatable sub 1" 10 shot groups. jmho... Thank you for the insight. I kind of figured that was the case, given the parameters of the challenge. |
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SPR Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A etc WITH magnified optics) at 100 yards.
Rifle is an Aero Precision upper/lower with a Geissele SSA trigger, Mark 4 6.5-20x50 on Larue LT 104 rings. Harris bipod with Larue mount, 16" chrome 1-10 barrel with a Surefire brake. Rear "squeeze bag" is a pair of Adidas gym shorts I had laying around in my vehicle. Working on getting a proper squeeze bag soon I used FGMM 168gr ammo for these groups.
And the groups. Calculator says the average is 1.305. Not as good as I was hoping, but it is a lot better than what I have been able to do with this rifle. Put in an SSA last week. Breaks incredibly clean and has improved my groups a lot. 
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I AM DARREN WILSON
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Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
I just ordered a few hundred 60 gr Flat base Sierra Varminters when I bought a bunch of 77 grain Tipped Match Kings. Prepare for some Douglas barreled Mk12 goodness soon.  Talk, talk, talk. 
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Specs on scope? Looks awesome! Bump for updated list. Sorry if I misread the guidelines, but can we submit multiple groups for the competition, or is this one and done? You can always resubmit if you did better and want to replace a previous one. |
Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Originally Posted By FALARAK: This is just my opinion... but if I can get 3 out of 5, 5-shot groups on a MOA all day target to be .500 or less, yes, I'd call that a sub .5MOA shooter. Have not gotten there yet. Originally Posted By FALARAK: Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor: Quick question for you precision junkies: Aside from the challenge and 5 for 25 grouping on paper, what is the "Ideal" group total to obtain an accurate MOA sample? I get the fact that one tight group on a 25 shot target is not an average or adequate sample, but if for argument sake I shoot a couple 5 shot groups that are sub .500, is my rifle a sub .500 shooter? This is just my opinion... but if I can get 3 out of 5, 5-shot groups on a MOA all day target to be .500 or less, yes, I'd call that a sub .5MOA shooter. Have not gotten there yet. The only simplified answer I have is to shoot 4 shot groups and find the average of the groups. Shooting more or less shots than 4 before averaging dosent work out when you do the math assuming a 1MOA standard. However 5 shot groups are pretty close to 4 shot groups, and the result is more conservative. |
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Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Talk, talk, talk Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
1st Place Holder ... Talk, talk, talk I'm just trying to crack the top ten 
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“If guns kill people then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk and spoons made Rosie O’Donnell fat.”
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
I'm just trying to crack the top ten Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
1st Place Holder ... Talk, talk, talk I'm just trying to crack the top ten I believe my entry will put me at 5, until Mark's entry bumps it down one. |
Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Didn't see monopods on the regulation/rules page......GTG or no? Thinking of running an ACCU-SHOT on the rear. I believe it is a no go. Rear has to be held in place with constant contact, ie a squeeze bag. |
I AM DARREN WILSON
Sent it over the weekend.
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^^^
Must'a missed it - guess I was fightin' it up on here. 
ETA - And this dang iPad holds about 8 emails. |
I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
I'm just trying to crack the top ten Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
1st Place Holder ... Talk, talk, talk I'm just trying to crack the top ten I know how you feel. I was in the top 20 for about a month and four days then Rowlock posted and knocked me out of the top 20 in SPR Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A etc WITH magnified optics) at 100 yards
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Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I believe my entry will put me at 5, until Mark's entry bumps it down one. Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
1st Place Holder ... Talk, talk, talk I'm just trying to crack the top ten I believe my entry will put me at 5, until Mark's entry bumps it down one. Actually if I used the moa formula on my 0.738 entry it gives me 0.704  So you better work on those hand loads and tweak a couple hundredths of moa out of them
I'm not concerned with that though. I just went out one day and shot this challenge 3 times in a row and picked the best one to submit. That was the only day I ever attempted it for that division. I'm more interested in collecting data at long range now because mama and I have an out of state trip coming up soon for some extreme range shooting. Mama's a good shooter to maybe after we get all of our data collected on her gun I will have her shoot this challenge for giggles. She is usually between 1 to 1.25 moa shooter. |
Far beyond driven
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Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
I'm not concerned with that though. I just went out one day and shot this challenge 3 times in a row and picked the best one to submit. I either get bored or cant handle that much loss of my good ammo or barrel wear on my long range rigs. :-) |
Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I either get bored or cant handle that much loss of my good ammo or barrel wear on my long range rigs. :-) Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
I'm not concerned with that though. I just went out one day and shot this challenge 3 times in a row and picked the best one to submit. I either get bored or cant handle that much loss of my good ammo or barrel wear on my long range rigs. :-) Barrels are replaceable none of mine are so precious that I'm afraid to shoot them to much. It took 75 rounds to shoot the challenge 3 times that is nothing and was the only time I attempted it with that gun. I also did one run at 50 yards for the unmagnified red dot division with another gun. We shoot 2 or 3 times a week all year round, but we have mama and 3 kids that train as well. Most of that is at long range, but we also enjoy handgun and rifle cqb drills as well. Mama and my boy help with reloading chores as well since we do so much of it. |
Far beyond driven
How often do they update results? Still trying to get clarification on a monopod, and if using your off hand to support the monopod as shown in the video below is GTG, because technically, you are still maintaining control of your weapon.
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“If guns kill people then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk and spoons made Rosie O’Donnell fat.”
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
How often do they update results? Still trying to get clarification on a monopod, and if using your off hand to support the monopod as shown in the video below is GTG, because technically, you are still maintaining control of your weapon. Akethan is on every day. He typically updates it whenever he sees the post and has some spare time. |
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Fort Eustis Army Base just north of Newport News. It's run through MWR, and the fee is $30 for the entire year. 500 yard range, and 50 station outdoor pistol range. It's the best kept secret in the Hampton Roads area and no one uses it. according to this they don't allow any 30cal stuff, 5.56 only is that accurate? sorry for the derail |
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It may be just what you need but it's never enough
I'm on the guest list / the execution.
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Originally Posted By Mike_P:
Akethan is on every day. He typically updates it whenever he sees the post and has some spare time. Originally Posted By Mike_P:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
How often do they update results? Still trying to get clarification on a monopod, and if using your off hand to support the monopod as shown in the video below is GTG, because technically, you are still maintaining control of your weapon. Akethan is on every day. He typically updates it whenever he sees the post and has some spare time. I like to get a few weeks of shooting before updates. This time of year is slow.
Monopods are not approved even if it supported by your hand. 5. OK TO USE sandbag, rest, ruck, bipod, rock with a hat, sling etc. on forearm of the rifle. **Will be OK to use a small rear sandbag (ie: sand sock or squeeze bag) or bean bag that must require constant hand pressure to maintain hold on target. IE. Can NOT sandbag gun in place. Shooter must maintain positive control of rifle. No formed or V-shaped rests/bags |
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correct, and that is the only deal breaker. I know the Army shoots larger calibers there, but I guess for liability reasons they don't allow anything bigger than .223. Be that as it may, the place is always empty and where else can you have access to a 500 yard range for $30 a year?
Thank you akethan for the clarification! |
“If guns kill people then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk and spoons made Rosie O’Donnell fat.”
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Originally Posted By SpeyRod: Was this a "I shot groups to take first place and will post soon." 1st place holder Or I hope I shoot a first place holder... Originally Posted By SpeyRod: Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: 1st Place Holder ... Was this a "I shot groups to take first place and will post soon." 1st place holder Or I hope I shoot a first place holder... |
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Originally Posted By GregMc:
If you shoot the First Place holder, do you move up or is that considered poor sportsmanship? Originally Posted By GregMc:
Originally Posted By SpeyRod:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
1st Place Holder ... Was this a "I shot groups to take first place and will post soon." 1st place holder Or I hope I shoot a first place holder... Range going hot? |
“If guns kill people then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk and spoons made Rosie O’Donnell fat.”
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New addition for the Wall of Claim.
Originally Posted By MyAliyah:
Quite accurate with a Colt Elite at 100yds. We were getting less than 1" groups. Do not know at 600+ yds. Oh yes, 24x target scopes. To edit: M193 got about the same groupings. It was hard to tell the difference really. Of course we did not shoot several hundred rds. to make a scientific judgement. From http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718274_M855_thread___How_many_of_you_can_ACTUALLY_hit_a_helmet_sized_target_at_600_meters_.html&page=1#i52056925 |
Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Those sub 100 yard MOA claims are pervasive in these parts........ Colt elite should have no problem achieving that however........but we know how that story ends!
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Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Those sub 100 yard MOA claims are pervasive in these parts........ Colt elite should have no problem achieving that however........but we know how that story ends!Not with M193 it can't. |
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Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Not with M193 it can't. Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Those sub 100 yard MOA claims are pervasive in these parts........ Colt elite should have no problem achieving that however........but we know how that story ends!Not with M193 it can't. Of course not, but M855 is sniper accurate! Less then 1" groups at 100 yards with ease. Not even gonna bat an eye it's so common
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Of course not, but M855 is sniper accurate! Less then 1" groups at 100 yards with ease. Not even gonna bat an eye it's so common Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Those sub 100 yard MOA claims are pervasive in these parts........ Colt elite should have no problem achieving that however........but we know how that story ends!Not with M193 it can't. Of course not, but M855 is sniper accurate! Less then 1" groups at 100 yards with ease. Not even gonna bat an eye it's so common Not 1 MOA, but some M855 can be pretty respectable. In fact, if I could have more than 1 entry. I would ne in front of 7 people in the SPR division if I posted up my M855 target |
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Of course not, but M855 is sniper accurate! Less then 1" groups at 100 yards with ease. Not even gonna bat an eye it's so common Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
Those sub 100 yard MOA claims are pervasive in these parts........ Colt elite should have no problem achieving that however........but we know how that story ends!Not with M193 it can't. Of course not, but M855 is sniper accurate! Less then 1" groups at 100 yards with ease. Not even gonna bat an eye it's so common I was under the impression M193 was more accurate up to 100 yards vs M855, but the fragmentation properties of M193 are its downfall. |
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
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M193 is manufactured to shoot 2 to 3 MOA.
Military Ball Accuracy |
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So this is all conjecture?
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m193orm855.html |
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
Where's my jacket? Feels a little shilly in here...
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
correct, and that is the only deal breaker. I know the Army shoots larger calibers there, but I guess for liability reasons they don't allow anything bigger than .223. Be that as it may, the place is always empty and where else can you have access to a 500 yard range for $30 a year? Thank you akethan for the clarification! Off topic - but where in VA are you shooting at 500? |
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Originally Posted By NAC_Instructor:
So this is all conjecture? http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m193orm855.html Nope, from that article: "They certainly can get you near 1 MOA (minute-of-angle) accuracy closer up and 1.5-2.0 MOA farther out (200-300 meters)...." I believe that is being very generous and optimistic.
Specs call for 2 MOA for military ball. |
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The targets:
image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr The gun: 
image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr The result: 
image by BillyDoubleU, on Flickr Service Non-Magnified Optic at 50 yards BillyDoubleU: Spike 16" midlength 5.56/.223 1:7, Aimpoint CompM3, Wolf WPA 55gr FMJ Polyformance: 1.196", 1.496", 1.736", 1.816", 1.866"= 1.622" avg = 3.244 MOA Notes: This is the first time I have shot a rifle in about 2 years, no lie. My position wasn't great, I am gonna get a shooting mat to make laying in the dirt a little more comfortable. I am gonna work on some dry fire. The Aimpoint was dialed down to the lowest brightness that I could still see. And for some morbid reason I like trying to do this with shitty ass Wolf 
It's good being back
ETA: On one of the targets I did shoot a .986" group but I also shot a 3.396" group on the same sheet... 
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