| Well, on a limited budget, the Sightron S2 is a great scope. Although over the last year the price has risen 25%, I can't say enough about this line. I took a older 6x24 40mmAO off my Howa HB .308 M/P HB model. It had been there for 14 years, but no longer fit what I wanted from the rifle. I wanted to hunt w/ it, Coyotes at night, so I put a Sightron S2 3x12 42mm AO on her w/ a new set of higher Burris rings and all I can say is WOW! With a full to 3/4 moon it is like daylight. Better than the night scope on my PSL. For another scope The Weaver V10 is very good. I put one on my 7mm Rem Mag this year and am very happy. The most impressive scope I have came on a rifle I bought, a German A-jack 4x90 on a Swede M41b, bolt, mount, base match as they should. The reticle, No4 post seems heavy at first, but it is very nice at 6" targets from 200 yards out. jp |
 About 10 months since your last update announcement, and doing a quick check on what if anything in the last year has resulted "adjustments" to your selection. I am assuming this is mostly in the sub two grand range, in particular which exact mix of features on the Leupold Mk4s would one select from the Custom shop (I am still at toss between 3.5-10 and 4.5-14 and have not make the jump to USO). Thanks John |
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has anyone looked into vector optics? They are on the low end price range market but its a good scope (well good in my experience anyways) I have a 10x40x56 30mm scope here is a picture or the scope mounted on my EDM ARMS .308http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo351/dasulenski/danielandhisbigassgun.jpg |
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i appologize if this has been answered anywhere in the thread, as i didnt have time to read it.
if you look at the mil-dot it says that its measured as 3.6" at 100 yards.... and 36" at 1000 yards... is this the same for MOA for instance 1MOA at 100 yards is 1.0472", so is 1 MOA at 1000 yards 10.472"? so if thats right and i have a 1/4 MOA increment scope then one click would move .2618" at 100 yards, then in turn 1/4 MOA adjustment would move 2.618" at 1000 yds? |
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i appologize if this has been answered anywhere in the thread, as i didnt have time to read it. if you look at the mil-dot it says that its measured as 3.6" at 100 yards.... and 36" at 1000 yards... is this the same for MOA for instance 1MOA at 100 yards is 1.0472", so is 1 MOA at 1000 yards 10.472"? so if thats right and i have a 1/4 MOA increment scope then one click would move .2618" at 100 yards, then in turn 1/4 MOA adjustment would move 2.618" at 1000 yds? YES |
I recently updated page 7 of Part II to include scope updates from the last two years, namely the Premier, Hensoldt, and the Nightforce FF options.
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part II - Optics (page 7) 
I also wrote this article on the Hensoldt 4-16x56mm which contains optical testing data including S&B, Premier, USO, and NF. 
article | The Hensoldt 4-16x56mm: How does it stack up? (abbreviated version)
The 2009 Tactical Operator magazine (out now) also has my 2009 high-end Scope Roundup, which includes everything other than the Hensoldt (didn't get it in time). |
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Outstanding thread Zak.......thank you.
I just finished one of the articles you had in the latest SGN treasury on AR battle optics.....your style of writing(as usual) is very down to earth and reader-friendly . I enjoy the hell outa your Demigod LLC site as well. Merry Christmas to you and yours. 
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(STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy 
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER 
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. 
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http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/akacoyotekid/DSC_1366.jpg (STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. WTF? |
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Quoted:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/akacoyotekid/DSC_1366.jpg (STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. WTF? x2 |
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http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/akacoyotekid/DSC_1366.jpg (STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. WTF? x2 x3! |
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http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/akacoyotekid/DSC_1366.jpg (STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. WTF? x2 x3! x4 Confused as well 700p = $900 Re-barrel + fitting = $550 Scope = $1500 Non-swivel Harris = $70 Rings/base = $200 Trued action* = $250 Bedding* = $150 Oversized recoil lug* = $30 PTG bolt* = $300 Trigger* = $250 Total = $4200 * denotes assumptions I made to jack up the price to try to reach $5k |
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Hey guys. Looking for some advise. I am gonna be getting a savage model 10 fcp-k. I only have ranges around me up to 300 yards. I have a leupold mark ar 3x9x40 on my rra .308 and i like it. Would not say i love it. The savage will be in a 308 also. I want this gun for target shooting and long range. However long range at this point will only be 300 yards. I want a scope for the savage that will easily see a paper target at well past 300 yards. I wont to go ver kill instead of wishing i had more. I dont want to spend 1500$ on the scope but not 300$ either. What would you guys think would be a good choice?
Thanks |
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Hey guys. Looking for some advise. I am gonna be getting a savage model 10 fcp-k. I only have ranges around me up to 300 yards. I have a leupold mark ar 3x9x40 on my rra .308 and i like it. Would not say i love it. The savage will be in a 308 also. I want this gun for target shooting and long range. However long range at this point will only be 300 yards. I want a scope for the savage that will easily see a paper target at well past 300 yards. I wont to go ver kill instead of wishing i had more. I dont want to spend 1500$ on the scope but not 300$ either. What would you guys think would be a good choice? Thanks You're in the same dillema as me LOL. I just picked up a 10fcp. Btw, it shoots great. 
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Thank you for the excellent write ups.
I decided to go with Schmidt & Bender, but I will tell you from my experience, that their customer serivce leaves much to be desired. If it was not for the fact I really want the specific scope, I would cancel the order and go with Leupold Mark IV series since their service has always been top notch. |
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Quoted:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/akacoyotekid/DSC_1366.jpg (STARTED AS 700P ) 5R barrel 26in. special order 1lb. trigger MY personal best was (5in) but NOW 3.5 in groups @ 1000yds ( I REALIZE I'M NOT WORLD CLASS BUT IT'S FAR FROM LAST) Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25x50mm Long Range / Tactical M5 Matte Illuminated TMR Reticle Mark 4 rings & 1 piece Mark 4- 1 piece base Yes I want to see my target by what most would say overkill/over/see but @ 1000 I( shoot @ 12in X 12in steel plates that fill my 50mm front lens it actually look's like most 100yd shot's. But seeing is hitting & believing :) Hell of an accurate shooter for a $5000 Remmy
Lastly I try to remain with AMERICAN MADE & REMINGTON IS AMERICA'S OLDEST RIFLE MAKER
I wanted it to look stock, make's it much more suprising shooting along side some AI's & such etc.. I wasn't shocked by the price (even though it looks like a stock 700P, by the way, what "new barrel" do you have on it?), I was more shocked by his claim of 5in. and 3.5in GROUPS...plural....at 1000yards with a .308....I'm calling BS. The 5inches is a little believable, but I'm not buying your 3.5inch claims....I usually shoot 6-7inches on a good day, and my entire rifle is custom made from the ground up. |
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I have a question for you. With a ffp when you dial the magnification the retical increases in size. How is this more precise then a fine retical ? Don't you want a small cross hair in order to have precise site picture. How do you get a good site picture with big fat cross hairs on a small target at long range ? Also with heavy winds on long range targets you would have to dial down in order to get your wind dots to be visible in your site picture ? Less magnification on long range targets is good ? How large is the cross hairs at full magnification at a target 12" at 1000.
I looked through a ffp and put it down and bought a sfp. My rational was I could practice with my scope, learn my wind /elevation values at certain magnification. EX. At 5.5 mag my hash marks are 12" dot to dot and at 22 mag my hash marks are 3" dot to dot at 100 yds (. Not real values just an example ) then do the same for every 100yds out to what ever distance you want to shoot. Then you would know that at ex. 800 yds and at 22 power my mil dots are lets say 12" apart. And if you know your mag values at all 100 yard increments you could dial the mag to suit your conditions for wind. Ex. At 700 yds with a 10 mph wind the rnd will move 24" and you knew that at 700 yds my mil dots at 20 power are 12" apart the use the second dot for aim point. Am I wrong about this way of thinking ? I have not shot out past 500yds so I am NO expert. I thought that first focal plane scopes were for snipers to shoot quickly at moving targets. Would you really pick a large cross hair over a small one at 1500 yds. Even a fine cross hair at that range would obscure your site picture I would think. My days of runnin around the sand pile with my m16a2 service rifle are long gone. Though I wish we had done more " target shooting " in Mogadishu. Maybe there would be less pirates there. I want to get back into compition shooting but I guess I have a lot to learn other then site alignment site picture and trigger control. Do you need a ffp to shoot comps now ? Do I really need to spend $ 3000 + on another scope ? My night force cost $ 2000 is it useless for long range comps ? Please excuse a rookie for potentially stupid questions. Just want all the info I can get from the experts so I can go out and beat you. LOL If I lose a will just call in a air strike to take out all your targets and leave mine still standing. Bet that would guarantee me VICTORY.. Semper Fi... |
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I have a question for you. With a ffp when you dial the magnification the retical increases in size. How is this more precise then a fine retical ? This isn't the argument for a FFP reticle. A first focal plane reticle's lines are always the same width in angular units, so if the lines are 0.125 MOA thick, they are 0.125 MOA thick regardless of whether you are at 6x or 15x magnification. The reason this is useful is because then you can use the other reticle features for windage, holdover, and ranging at any magnification setting. More or less standard practice in field/long-range shooting is to dial elevation and then to use reticle features to hold wind (due to several reasons discussed elsewhere). If you have a FFP reticle you can do this at any magnification setting. If you want to shoot benchrest at 24x all day, then a very very fine second focal plane reticle is probably what you want. However, reticles that have angular line thickness similar to the P4-Fine reticle (S&B), which if I remember correctly is about 1/8th of a MOA, are "fine" enough to create a sight picture on an object approx 1/2 MOA in size. How do you get a good site picture with big fat cross hairs on a small target at long range ?
Not a problem with the reticle I mentioned or others that have similar line thickness. Also with heavy winds on long range targets you would have to dial down in order to get your wind dots to be visible in your site picture ?
No. How large is the cross hairs at full magnification at a target 12" at 1000.
The same angular size they are at any distance. You can get this figure from an engineering diagram of the reticle. I looked through a ffp and put it down and bought a sfp. My rational was I could practice with my scope, learn my wind /elevation values at certain magnification. EX. At 5.5 mag my hash marks are 12" dot to dot and at 22 mag my hash marks are 3" dot to dot at 100 yds (. Not real values just an example ) then do the same for every 100yds out to what ever distance you want to shoot. Sure, you can figure out what your reticle features demarcate at any power on a SFP scope. The downsides are that (1) you have to be exactly at 6x or 12x or whatever for it to be calibrated, and most SFP scopes do not have a detent to indicate this, and then you get into using witness marks, and (2) you now a lot more math and thinking to do while you should be concentrating on shooting, getting the data correct in the first place, getting the best body position, doping the wind, etc. This is the exact same argument for using a zero-stop knob or a big "many click knob" (vs. a many-turn knob) or having the reticle and the knobs match angular units (mil/mil moa/moa vs. mil/moa). You can make the alternates work but they involve more attention and thinking while shooting and demonstrably have a much higher human-error rate in use. Do you need a ffp to shoot comps now ?
No but it helps. Generally what the top 30% of shooters are using is a good indication of general trends of utility (ie it helps them win) and the vast majority at field/LR matches are using FFP scopes. |
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I have seen you mention a great many scopes, and I was wondering what your opinion is of the Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP? If engaging targets out to 1000 yards and beyond with a .308 is there any benefit to the Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP v.s. Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP?
http://www.vortexoptics.com/admin/includes/thumbnail_generator.php?maxw=300&img=rfl_pst_6-24x50_mrad_fr-t.jpg In reading through some of your suggestions it appears as though they both contain the features which you have suggested effective. Obviously, with one having a higher magnification it will have less viewable area at top magnification. . . . but since it can be dialed down, should that be a concern? My intention is to put it on top of my Savage 10BA. https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/firearms/models/610/k1WOXNkdL_6mogKH29n.png |
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I have seen you mention a great many scopes, and I was wondering what your opinion is of the Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP? If engaging targets out to 1000 yards and beyond with a .308 is there any benefit to the Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP v.s. Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP? http://www.vortexoptics.com/admin/includes/thumbnail_generator.php?maxw=300&img=rfl_pst_6-24x50_mrad_fr-t.jpg In reading through some of your suggestions it appears as though they both contain the features which you have suggested effective. Obviously, with one having a higher magnification it will have less viewable area at top magnification. . . . but since it can be dialed down, should that be a concern? My intention is to put it on top of my Savage 10BA. https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/firearms/models/610/k1WOXNkdL_6mogKH29n.png I am running that very scope in MILRAD but in 6-24x50. I went with the higher magnification because it is nice to have when shooting 1k yards depending on the size of your target. Ive shot F class with my old NF that was a 5.5-22x50 on 10x at 1k yards and had zero issue but at a bolt gun match we were shooting 800 yards at a half hidden piece of steel and it was nice to be able to crank it all the way up to take the shot. |
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