It's certainly a hell of a write up isn't it! I'm still studying it myself. It isn't within my power to make any kind of a decision on your question, but I'm sure it'll be around for awhile, with Zaks approval. Zak, the information you've shared is staggering, both in quality and quantity. How would you feel about us putting (copying) it on to AR15.coms content server? This offers the advantage of the information being forever available, without the worry of it being lost to the archives if this thread ever gets untacked. The disadvantage is that it will be a singular post, (Your first post only, not open to further discussion as a thread/topic) and, it will only be editable by a mod or staff, or at least with their help. Ideally, with the help of everyone, I'd like to form a more permanet base of information like this within this section of the forum, as it has been done in other sections of AR15.com. Links to related sites, related information sources, member write ups, etc.. All contained within an announcement, at the top of this section of the forum. So far, this one looks like it should get top billing, and would make a great start. After that, we can add other content as we move along. Please let me know Zak, and again, thank you!  |
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Hi, I'm glad the article is useful and I appreciate the compliments. I wrote the article and posted it to several forums including AR15.com because there was a distinct lack of information about scopes for practical precision / LR shooting, and too many choices. I didn't write it to make money - I wrote it to help out other guys who are into or want to get into LR shooting, because it kicks ass. At the same time, I want to retain control of the article and its copyright, in case somebody wants to leverage it as training materials in the future. I am hesitant to have the article copied elsewhere, especially where it is not directly editable by me. This is because I make periodic updates and enhancements to the article (for example, I redid a bunch of graphs a few weeks ago), and I don't want obsolete versions floating around. The best & latest version is always at demigod.org/optics. Much like the Ammo-Oracle, an executive summary and a link could be provided to it, if the tacked thread ever dies for some reason. hope this helps- don't hesitate to contact me privately about it Zak |
That is a great point too. The only FFP scope I ever used had a problem with the rings. I had it mounted and was trying to boresight. I got all the way to the stop on the windage and was not zeroed. What I found peculiar was how noticable the windage line offset was through the reticle as I changed powers. I realize all scopes will show a degree of offset when at the extreme of the adjustment but it was severely noticable on the FFP over a SFP scope. Just another reason not to neglect the mounting. |
Zak you seem to know the most about precision shooting here on the boards, so let me ask you a question from a self proclaimed newbie precision shooter. I recently purchased a 5R (got a hell of a deal btw) I'm am thinking about ordering a Leupold 6.5-20 x 50mm Mil dot scope along with a one piece warne base and some Leupold rings, I mainly will shoot @ 100 yards, but I may every once in a while shoot long range to 600 yards. Would you suggest any alternative other than the leupold? Maybe a Super Sniper Scope for the money? As I'm brand new to bolt guns I really don't know too much, but I do know you often get what you pay for when you buy a nice piece of glass. Even a sub par gun can do some great things with a above average scope, I do know that. Suggestions are welcomed! Thanks Zak Jake. 
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The flattery is appreciated, but misplaced. I am a decent 3Gun / practical shooter and only an "OK" long range / precision shooter. If the scope you refer to is the Mark 4 M1 6.5-20 model with the external tactical-style turrets, that is a good choice, however, it is probably more magnification than you need for a 308. The 4.5-14x50mm model would do just as well. Either way, it's your choice. Leupold makes a solid scope and it a good choice. I have heard that the SS is a good scope "for the money", but I have never tried one myself. hope this helps Zak |
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I recently completed some major research for a similar project. Was looking for glass for my new Savage 10FP .308. Took much of what Zak had to say here, and from numerous other members here and @ www.Snipershide.com, with the goal of a 100 - 800 yard rifle. I selected a Leupold 4.5 - 14X 50mm, 30mm tube, side focus, target turrets that I picked up off the boards used for $750. I am mounting the with TPS 20 moa cant base & TPS 30mm low (.925") rings (alloy steel). Really like the look and feel of the TPS stuff, but have not mounted them yet. Got great prices on the TPS stuff from Mike @ C&S Gunworks (dealer on this board), actually cheaper than buying retail from TPS!!! My scope should get here tomorrow, can't wait!! Good luck in your choosing! Best advice is to spend all you can on the scope now, or be prepared to spend it again later!! If your set on a fixed power scope, the Super Snipers seem to be doing pretty good, at least they are holding a pretty good resale value if you decide to go in a different direction. The Loopy's hold their value great as well! If you can afford it, S&B, Nightforce, and USO seem to be the top three. The SS only comes in fixed powers as of today, rumor has it that may change soon. XOTIC is supposed to be prepping for a big release shortly as well. Good choice on the rifle!! I think I may pick up an SS for my AR soon...with the high resale I don't think I can go wrong (not a real big$$$ comparitively)... The major complaint about them has been mushy knobs.. Bill C. |
| Yeah, I've decided on getting the super sniper, after last week with a cheap 3-9 power simmons scope on the rifle I was still able to shoot 4 shot groups with in the size of a dime. I was amazed at how accurate the rifle was with stock everything and a cheap scope on board. |
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Just got my new scope last night S&B 5x25 with p4 reticle heres my question??? I installed the Badger 20moa base with full expectations on zeroing my rifle toward the start of the elevation range but It zeroed at 11.2 mils , and the full adjustment range of the scope is from 0 to 26 mills??? What gives, Am i doing something wrong???? or is this normal. Miked |
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First off thank for the great info. Second, I kind of understand the FFP vs SFP but could you explain how the SFP works? Do the scopes only range correctly at maximum magnification? I thought I had everything worked out for a build later this year but I have been looking intothe Nightforce NXS, which are substantially mroe than the Super Sniper I had first planned on. I was looking at the NF NP-R2 and the new NP-R1 reticles, in particular. Would they only range correctly at the 15x setting? Thanks again, and sorry if I just missed this info in the write-up. |
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Most of the SFP scopes "work" at maximum power, but some of them use an intermediate power (like say 15x in a 6.5-20x-- just making that up). In any case, the reticle will only demarcate the "right" angles at one power in the range. Yes, those two I believe work only at 15x. You can work out the math to figure out what they demarcate at lower powers. -z |
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"What is your opinion of the Super Sniper???" I'm not zak but I can say that my opinion is good reliable ajutments that may not be exactly 1/4MOA, but glass that is sub par in light transmition. it's an overbuilt tube though- very tough. I would rather have a Leupold M3. I prefer the knobs and the glass is a world better. The tube is tough enough for military work on the M3. What i would like to know is wether you have experience with Shepherd scopes and what your opinion is on them. I have always thought the idea of a no-rangefinder neccessary reticle for quick engagements would be great, and that precision should be feasible given a laser rangefinder for the slower shots that can be set up. |
I have heard that the Super Sniper is a good value for the money, but never used one myself. I normally recommend a Leupold Mark 4 as the baseline.
Per their website, the Shepherd has the following features which give their scopes unique value: 1. one shot zero, 2. range finding & reticle BDC 3. two reticles (one FFP one 2FP), scope malfunction indicator 4. windage indication Taken one by one: 1. one shot zero -- any scope which has some reticle features and dials can do this. In a mil-dot reticle (or MOA-based NPR2, or similar), you spot your hit with the reticle features and then dial the correction. 2. ranging finding & reticle BDC -- like most ranging finding reticles, the ranging "circles" are based on a specific-sized target, and will be difficult or impossible to use on different size targets. The granularity of distance "data" you get out of the range-finding features is coarse. For example, even if the target is the right physical size for the circles, how do you range it accurately if it's between 700 and 800 yards? You have to guess how close it is to the two different circles. 2a- reticle BDC-- BDC's are by nature calibrated to one load from one rifle in one set of environmental conditions. This is not unique to the Shepherd, but still worth noting as a disadvantage of BDCs. The second problem is similar to the arbitrary-distance ranging problem. If you have a target that you've lased at 765 yards, and your BDC has marks for 700 and 800 yards, you have to guess where in the reticle the datum for 765 would be. This means firstly you don't know exactly where it is, and secondly that you are holding "in space" with no specific reticle feature on the target. 3. two reticles & malfunction indicator-- While there may be some potential use for a FFP+2FP setup, to provide a fine main crosshair yet constant angular features in the observed reticle, the point that having two reticles being more reliable is a red herring. From good scope-makers such as Leupold, Nightforce, Trijicon, S&B, USO, (and I'm sure mot of the sub-Leupold-price options), reticles don't break very often anyway. The reliability thing is a non-issue. Furthermore, while their demo seems to indicate that a 2FP reticle is a potential reliability problem (with "up to 23 things between the reticle and the target")... WHY would they want to do this AND the other? Why not just make one well? 4. windage indication-- Leaving one or the other knob dialed is always something the shooter has to keep track of, when using knobs for windage and elevation adjustments. This is one reason I often prefer to leave my windage knob zeroed and use reticle-feature wind holdoff. In summary, in my opinion, the ranging system is a gimmick and not practically useful. A basic mildot or MOA-scale reticle will be more flexible. The reticle BDC has the same limitation as any reticle BDC, namely that arbitrary-distance shots are difficult due to lack of a continuous scale, and even then, they lock you into one load/gun/set of conditions. I also see no practical value to the last two features, just that they make the scope more complicated mechanically (and prone to failure) and for the user, since his sight picture changes. |
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Shepherd scopes are not very durable, and thier customer service is non-existent. A mil-dot scope w/a bubble level and mil-dot master is the best way to range estimate that I know of. The SA BDC is great for approximations on the fly, and it does have a level, but they are large, heavy, bulky, and not as reliable as a MK4. My Super Sniper is to date the best value I've found, and have shot more than 1 match w/mine, one of which a sniper match hosted by Jim Clark and Terry Cross. On the mil-ranging stage, I was the 2nd most accurate out of 16 shooters, at 319 yards.. it was something like 325. If there WAS a better value than a Super Sniper, I would own it... but there isnt. I actually noticed a problem w/my Luepy 6.5x20 Mk4 LR/T that the Super Sniper DOESNT have, and that was the paralax causting the rear plane to come out of focus, althought I'm sure this isn't a problem w/the fixed power Lueps. |
| great artical, i have stumbled on to a much easier and useful long range scope its called the "RAPID RETICLE" scope. take a look at their web and think about the next scope you pay for. these scopes are less than $600. and they range to 800 yards.... AND THE BEST PART IT WORKS!!! |
Works? Who has used it to place in the top-5 at major practical long-range shooting matches? The RR is merely a reticle BDC, which has all the disadvantages of one set BDC (cam or reticle) and also is limited when the target size is smaller at distance than the reticle BDC lines are apart. And that just gets worse as you have to hold for additional wind. You say they "range to 800 yards", yet they have no rangefinding features. The Pride-Fowler page on the RR totally glosses over windage. Fixed reticle BDCs like this one are neither precise enough nor flexible enough to deliver first-round hits on arbitrary distance small to practical size targets at long range, in a variety of environmental conditions. Adverts like the RR page and your post are gimmicks to draw in shooters who don't know any better. |
| The Rapid Reticle is just a BDC on the reticle. It will work with one load and in one environmental condition like any BDC. Also it only works out to 800 yards. What if you're shooting a round other than a .308? What if you need to range a target? A good mildot scope will do everything the Rapid Reticle will do and much more. |
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As far as I can tell, the Leatherwood has a magnification ring "cam" which automatically dials up elevation setting based on the magnification setting. My take on it is that that is not very precise and locks you into being able to use only one magnification for a certain dope setting. In short-- a gimmick, and one that doesn't work very well at that. -z |
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I checked around today and found out Nightforce does not offer a FFP reticle. They have a NP-R2 that is a MOA dot or hash and 1/4 MOA clicks. Leupold offers FFP on a few-Mk4 ER/T, M1 knobs, They offer a metric knob but I can't get it on the ER/T I understand I can use a traditional mil-dot with a .5cm/ click metric Vertical adjustment and they will match. The only scope they offer with metric knobs is the 4.5-14x50 with SFP. Why can't they get all of the goodies on one scope? On a 6.5-20x50- FFP. A MOA hash reticle and 1/4moa vert. adj. or A mil dot reticle and .5cm vert. adj. |
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I'd recently got a custom shop scope,vintage, built like a tank, side focus and turret kbobs, rock solid & repeat beautifully. It serves as a rifle scope and spotting scope, it 8-40x56mm, super clear, work excellent in low light situations, 30mm tube. Came with two side focus knobs, one small/med and one large & two 3" sun shades. Leupold 30mm scope rings. Hopefully today, my new Leupold range finder be here today. TG |
Well duh, I thought everyone knew this shit! HAHA.. just kidding..... Seriously though, a lot of your charts, look similar to some stuff I got at FBI sniper school, so if you did all the work yourself, give yourself a big high five..... Funy that I actually have been drooling over the US Optics SN3 3-17 scope for a while... just cant figure out who will buy my kidney so I can buy it 
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Don't get mils and MOA confused. 20 mils is about 69 MOA and 20 MOA is about 5.8 mils. To your question, yes get the 20 MOA base as with the WSM you will be able to reach out pretty far and it's better to have the extra 20 MOA and keep the reticle more centered in the tube even with a scope like the SS which has a listed 100 MOA of travel. |
The leatherwood gimmick has history and it is a successful piece of equipment historically. Today the quality isn't the same as the older US made scopes- now they are chinese scopes with maybe US bases? I just know they are crap optically The advent of reliable internal ajustments such as the Leupold M3, sort of makes these scopes obsolete. One strong point with the original system, is AUTO RANGING, it worked well in Vietnam, and quick systems like it, are a good fit for semi-automatic rifles IMO. There were a lot of first and second round kills with the leatherwood at 900+ yards, which sort of stands as testimony to the auto-ranging concept. In fact the Sniper with the most "confirmed kills" in Vietnam had an M21/ART/leatherwood combo with a suppressor and AN/PVS2. I forget the name but Waldron sounds familiar- he had 103 confirmed. |
Updated top post with links to article series article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment   article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part II - Optics  article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part III - Shooting |
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