assuming life continues as normal, propane seems like a good choice for generator, and hot water heater, stove, etc.    however, if there was a multi-year disruption, all the stuff that ran on propane would be useless.   granted, you could store several years worth, and i don't think it goes bad, right?

diesel, otoh, is a little more versatile and since my truck, side by side, and other gear runs on diesel, I can use a decent sized tank to hold fuel for all of those things too.  however, diesel doesn't last for ever.    in a long term disruption, some of those things could be converted to run on bio diesel though.

natural gas is out.  


i'm not that familiar with propane pricing, but farm diesel can be pretty cheap.   i'm leaning toward propane, and a large tank, per the other thread on propane.   but i wonder if diesel would be a better choice

btw, this is for a totally off grid garage/workshop/cabin that will primarily use solar and wind for electricity, and wood for heat

What level of "multi-year disruption" are you concerned with?

Gradual degradation of national support systems?
Everything fails, all at once, all over the nation?
Asteroid strike and extinction level event?


Anyway, figure that one out and go from there.

As to storage, propane will store, as long as it's not escaping, basically forever. Or as long as the pressure vessel holds. So, buy a few thousand gallons. Install an underground tank.

Diesel, as long as you don't have bacterial growth going on (and that can be killed and filtered out also, if you want), will also last for quite a few years. Treat with something like Pri-D.

Bio diesel is a possibility, but it's not an easy thing to do. Study up on it if you want to go down that route.

If you're running a modern diesel engine, with electronic controls, in tank lift pumps, common rail, etc etc - start heading towards older tech.

Find an older mechanical pumped direct injection diesel, a tank heating system, and run raw oils. That system has issues too.

Or, start looking into drip gas, if you're in an area that has wells.

Another potential is running wood gas. That'll take quite a bit of work to become efficient, but at least the raw fuel grows in all sorts of places.

For stationary engines doing long duration, small to medium work loads, look into hit and miss engines.

Don't overlook coal for heating and even steam engine/electricity generation. It is cheap and will store left in a pit covered with dirt for millions of years. Might come in handy. Order by the dump truck load.

All the fuels.

Wood is a highly overlooked fuel for some reason. Some of the commercial rocket stoves are amazing or a simple Kelly kettle does what a jet boil does and more.

Propane generators are great, dual fuel have more options. Don’t think a man could store enough for a long term disruption but six or so months is probably doable if you’re careful.  If you can use interment power much longer.

Diesel like you said has more utility.  If you have an old Diesel engine there’s a lot more than diesel that you can burn in it with a little elbow grease or getting engine to temp with real diesel first.

My favorite fuel for around a home is propane. But I also store gasoline and diesel.

There is a reason the US Army uses diesel for every thing.

Technically it’s JP8 although diesel works in the same engines and is frequently used in place of JP8 especially when refueling at civilian gas stations in the US and some places abroad.

Standardization on JP8 is used for simplification of logistics. It’s far easier for supply to only have to supply one type of fuel for aircraft, vehicles, generators, and some heaters vs multiple fuel types. It’s especially important when transporting fuel to remote and austere locations around the world.

The US military will also sometimes use gasoline powered vehicles on bases and FOBs for simple non-tactical purposes and the gasoline is often sourced locally (and often crappy). I have used gasoline powered vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan (but just for driving on base)

From a survival perspective in the US, the ability to use multiple fuels increases ones probability of finding a fuel when needed.

For what it's worth, natural gas is one of the few options available for at-home production. It's probably not as convenient as the wood gasifier alternative mentioned, but it makes for a good way to recycle shit and compost into a usable biproduct, which is about 99% pure methane. The equipment is relatively cheap, and simple. It does require some heat so Winter production is pretty much out. That, and there's an intial ~3-month period when production is negligible. The first barrel (or sometimes even a huge plastic bag tied off) is a digester. The next phase scrubs out the CO2 by making it precipitate into a solution of dissolved sodium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate. The last stage relates to storing the now refined gas.

But, I vote diesel.

The beauty of the diesel engine, speaking of older, non-DEF, and lots of electronics models, is that you can run them off a variety of fluids if you can filter the fluids correctly.  For example, used vegetable oil, transmission fluid, kerosene, etc.  In a long term SHTF, you'll have to do some scrounging, but you should be able to find a lot of fluids to use.

A number of years ago, there was a thread about diesel and somebody posted a nice filtering setup to filter other fluids to run in their diesel.

Excellent post. When I bought my house it 100% propane heat. I would have to fill the 500 gal tank 3-4 times a year. It was quite expensive. I swapped the useless decorative propane fireplace for a high efficiency wood fireplace and now I heat 90+% with wood. Propane is only for hot water and backup heat when I'm not home. I only need one fill up of the propane tank a year, and it's usually to top it off just in case. I'd love to do a home standby generator run off propane too, more with an eye on short term outtages due to ice storms than SHTF. When you start looking at fuel consumption of generators figure on having to store multiple thousands of gallons of LP to maintain current electrical consumption in a longer term grid down scenario.

I don't store a lot of diesel so I can't really weigh in on it. But I do know some large commercial backup generators run off diesel. A hospital I used to work at had a few of them, and they always ran fine when test fired or put into use, and I never saw the fuel rotated

A good example of having to run ridiculously long on preps is Puerto Rico post hurricane... frankly I don't understand why that wasn't bigger news, the response to relief was even worse than Katrina.

As you mention both have pros and cons... propane doesn't go bad, and a multi fuel generator (gasoline/propane) has the potential to be converted to run off a wood gasifier if you end up having to use it when resources are scarce.   Then again, diesel has a lot of potential for alternative fuels too.

As a third option, you already have a diesel truck -- have you considered installing a heavy duty (or secondary) alternator and 3000+ watt inverter, so you can use the truck itself as a whole home generator in a pinch?  The fuel tank is big enough to last way longer than a portable generator, and it's mobile rather than a traditional whole home generator that is fixed. You might have to take the truck someplace leaving your home without power, but you could still have a small traditional (portable) multi-fuel generator to run the basics at reduced power for those trips.  If you're going somewhere long term and have room on the truck, you can simply mount the smaller gas/propane/woodgasifier generator to the truck as an APU so if you do run across any gas or propane you can use that.

I would prefer to save my vehicle for actual transportation not stationary running for electricity. It could be a backup very short term power source but I would want an actual generator to power loads in a house. Using a vehicle for power would be extremely wasteful of fuel.

Yep, PR was a good example of what a long(ish) outage might look like. One of the things that became readily apparent fairly quickly is that stand-by generators that are designed for a few hours use once or twice a year didn't hold up all that well during weeks of 24/7 prolonged use. Even simple maintenance like changing the oil every 100 hours meant doing that every 4 days. Put that off for a month and now your oil is all coked up and your generator fails.

Note that for the first two weeks, there was no fuel being transported at all. It took another 2 weeks for fuel, particularly gasoline, to even start being delivered to local gas stations. Diesel deliveries were being made to hospitals and critical facilities first. Even when gasoline deliveries started to happen, there was a very limited supply. And, there were only deliveries to gas stations that had backup power or where grid power was restored. Oddly, it seemed the local power company focused on critical facilities first, then banks and big box stores, and everybody else had to wait in line. Some hotels did OK getting power restored before their generators failed.

One of the locals I worked with down there said he had about 30 days worth of gas for his small generator. He'd crank it up when he first got up and run it to give him light to shower and shave then fix breakfast. Then he'd shut it off and go to work. Once he got home, he'd fire it up again to fix dinner and cool down the fridge and cool down his bedroom with a window unit. At bedtime, he'd shut it off. So, less than 4 hours twice a day. Repeat for a month and a half. Luckily he was able to refuel after about 3 weeks.

Some folks on the island didn't get grid power back for over a year. The power distribution down there sucked before the hurricane and the level of destruction made simple patchwork useless. So, they had to wait to get crews, gear, and parts/supplies brought in by boat which took weeks. And, not all the supplies and spare parts got to where they were supposed to go. Eventually FEMA had to send armed marshals in to "liberate" a warehouse full of stuff that had been brought in but got hoarded by a local politician in a big warehouse.

Propane stores pretty well and is generally pretty safe. Diesel isn't bad either with a few precautions. Some cities/counties have restrictions on how much gasoline you can store near a house or on your property unless you have a farm and the farm equipment needs it.

Don't forget about solar as backup power. I took a folding solar panel with me down to PR along with a power supply that had a LiFePO4 battery, a 300W pure sine inverter, and an MPPT solar charger built in. I could have kept my radio going 24/7 if I needed to do that. I've got more portable solar panels and batteries now. Once I get another house, I'm going to look at getting a larger fixed solar setup.

I started to put in JP8 but thought diesel fuel was easier to explain. Older videos where multifuel you could run them on kerosene and other fuels. The older deuce and half had a great multifuel engine.

If you have a 5000 gallon propane tank, then propane.... but generally IMHO gasoline is best. Or rather gaz and kerosene , and propane. Gas for vehicles, which you need anyway.. plus for generators, camping stoves, lanterns chainsaws, etc.. kerosene for space heaters, and propane for various others.

It's not hard to store a few hundred gallons of gas, get a used 275 gallon farm tank for a few hundred bucks, put a pump on it, and stick it in a corner of your property / yard. Iv kept gas for 5 years myself, zero issues. Without rotating. If you rotate a few 5 gallon cans thru it each month it will last forever IMHO,  just rotate, stabilize and keep moisture out. Well not forever... but it wont go bad with proper care.  

I built a small in ground storage area where iv got a dozen Jerry cans and 6 , 55 gallon barrels of gas, diesel, kerosene, propane etc... planning on adding  couple 300 gallon tanks to save space.

It is unusual to find a household propane tank sized for more than 1000 gallons.  They are usually filled to 80% to 85%, so figure 800 gallons available in a full tank.

Only unusual bc we are an "on-demand" society and most homeowners don't see any benefit in owning a larger tank bc they just gotta call the truck to bring more.

Someone that wishes to truly be prepared, and desires LP as a fuel source, especially if they plan to run heat + backup generator, better have several thousand gallons on-hand.

I'm sorry, are you trying to say storing propane is somehow more dangerous than other fuels or that there is some magic threshold at which it goes from "just an LP tank" to "ridiculously dangerous"?

That's not the way it works. And many people have large storage tanks. When was the last time you heard of one going boom?

I use propane as a backup source of fuel.  We have both a small 120V generator as well as a larger 240V generator that can run off of propane for household and minor farm use.  The Farm generator is a Tractor PTO unit but that is outside the scope of household use.  Purchasing several 1000 gallon tanks for use at a home is better than one large tank for a number of reasons.

There is the possibility of a leak in a line, or a faulty regulator that could cause gas to leak.  If you did not notice the ice formation or smell, you could drain a tank.  Less propane would be lost if you had multiple 1000 gallon tanks, plumbed together, but only one open at a time.  

Cost:  A 1000 gallon tank is easily and commonly available.  In my area, an above ground tank would run about $2500, while a below ground tank would run $2900.  The tank can be moved and set by a backhoe, or a large skid loader.
Price for gallon of actual storage capacity figureing the more common above ground tank $ 3.12 (note: tanks are usually filled to 80% capacity.

Cost of a 30,000 gallon tank (a common size for a storage facility).  My last quote was about $ 100,000.  Cost for gallon of actual storage capacity $ 4.17 a gallon.  Again filled to 80% capacity.  You are going to need a crane to set, and a special truck to move the tank.  You are limited due to the size of the tank and increased setback distances on where it can be installed.  There is also a boatload of government paperwork due to the capacity of the storage vessel.  This is not common for a household, your insurance company may have some questions for you.  These are most commonly used in industry, propane storage farms, and large farm operations, both for heat and grain drying.

In short, your cost per gallon of storage capacity is going to increase once you cross the common 1000 gallon tank.  There is no practical reason to purchase 1 large tank over several smaller 1000 gallon tanks unless you can get the larger tank at a discounted price, and even then it may not be worth it with the other issues.  The common 1000 gallon tank is your most cost effective storage vessel of propane for the money spent.

First off, I didn't specify it had to be in a single large tank. I said to store that much if you really want to count on it as a reliable energy source. If you want it in multiple tanks and you can justify it go for it!


I don't think your numbers are realistic. Maybe buying new, but rarely would any end-user buy new tanks outside of normal 500/1,000 gallon tanks. But even then, it's most common to buy those used too. Additionally, you forgot to account for added space requirements and added install & piping costs for multiple tanks. Used 500/1,000 tanks usually sell for around $2/gallon, and sometimes can be had for $1/gal if you find the right deal.

My dad owns three 12,000 gal tanks. One is a skid tank (self supporting on it's own skid so easily moved). Skid tanks are much more expensive. That one cost him $25k ($2.08/gal). His other two are normal tanks that sit on concrete piers. Those cost $8k plus $2500 paint job and $750 revalving each, plus the concrete piers (around $1/gal). Cranes to set them were less than $500 each, he hauled the tanks himself.


What paperwork? It requires an inspection & leak check by a qualified inspector. No other paperwork necessary. Your state may be more restrictive. The gas company dad buys through inspected his tanks for free.


If you really want to talk costs let talk total costs. Once you cross the 12,000 gallon line you can buy LP a full semi at a time, straight from the terminal to your tank, no offloading at a retailer and paying a markup with delivery etc. This will usually save you more than $0.50/gallon. It doesn't take too many fill ups to make a larger tank pay for itself (if you're using gas). Lately dad has been buying his gas for around $0.55-0.65/gal. Here's the catch. If you order a full semi load from a producer (refinery or oil well) you have to be able to take it all or you lose what is left on the truck. It goes back to the terminal and you don't get credit for that.

Once again, it doesn't matter to me how you store your LP. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. There is just no need to stretch the truth about large tanks. Yes, a 12,000 gal tank is huge, and I don't reasonably expect many people to actually get one. But my point was that you're fooling yourself if your plan is to run your generators & furnace longterm on 400 or 800 gallons of LP. A single small tank, in some ways, is more susceptible to supply interruptions than NG supplies.

If you have a multiyear disruption, 1) we are fucked and 2) any fossil fuel is out of the picture.   Gonna buy, fill and maintain a 10,000 gallon tank????

Honestly, I think the best choice for truly off-grid, no power, long term heat and cooking and the like is....  wood.

Thank you for your comments and knowledge.  You obviously have more experience than I and I thank you for sharing what you know.  I quoted the prices I have been paying for new tanks although it seems that they have gone up a bit over the last two years.  I believe the regulations is my state may be more involved than your state, as the paperwork involved as well as the state mandates insurance requirements seemed onerous when I investigated the possibility of installing one.  I was not aware of the substantial discount in price available if purchasing by the truckload.  I thank you for sharing that.

A question about the full semi load.  Do the trucks have the equipment to pump the propane off and into the tanks, or is the end used responsible for the equipment to suction & pump the semi empty?

A second question about the concrete piers, am I understanding you correctly that they would cost $ 1.00 per gallon capacity, or is the $ 1.00 per gallon for the entire tank purchase, with new valves & tank install?  $ 1.00 per gallon for just the piers seems excessive.

Thank you again for your comments.

The big reason is fire. It is much safer than gasoline and stores well.

The truck has a pump. And to be honest, if it was your desire to have the best of both worlds you can likely plumb several small tanks into a manifold with the larger delivery port that a semi will use. That being said, that's not something I have experience with so I don't know the limitations or possibilities there.




Sorry, that didn't read the way I intended. I don't know what the piers cost dad so I omitted that figure. The $1/gal cost in parentheses was the cost of everything else combined.

In regards to new tanks, yes, they can be very pricey. If you want some real shock, look at new prices on a LP semi trailer. Dad considered getting his own but very quickly abandoned that idea!

If one were to generalize, a realistic price to pay for a used LP tank from 500 gallons and up is $2/gallon give or take.

Correct, but also turbine engines run on it, and lots of military equipment is powered by turbines.  What is not powered by turbines needs to be able to tow and be easily serviceable, so again diesel.  

.

Actually the big reason is logistics. War fighting ability wins battles. Logistics wins wars. Aircraft use JP8. JP8 is similar to diesel. Bottom line is, US military vehicles, tanks, and generators are made to run JP8 instead of diesel so the logistics folks can supply only one type of fuel and run everything.