UPDATED w/ pix, post #7 Portable Rev Osmosis (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By PlaysWithAtoms:
Dunno if anyone's said it yet, but increasing the water supply's elevation by 1 foot increases the differential pressure by 62.4 psf (0.433 psi). Good point PWA, so raising it by, say, 20 feet which most anyone could do will create a head pressure of about 8 psi. I've had a 75 GPH RO filter work [the one that's on our kitchen counter right now] with a head preassure created by putting a small container of water in an upper kitchen cabinet and the RO on the floor and syphoning to it. A word about RO filters. They are commonly available in 25, 50 75 and 100 GPD[day] sizes. Unless you are dealing with expensive big box store models that have proprietary filter housing that force you to buy their $$$$ filter replacements [not recommended] - -the filters are very standard and economical if you shop carefully. One more item is that the 100 GPDay filter has a slightly greater pore size [from reading the specs] and that results in less filtering of impurities. Don't be alarmed because we're talking about filtering at the atomic level [way smaller than any viris which is about as small as bio critters go and having the ability to reject Florine or Chlorine ATOMS for example] NOT the kind of filtering that is done by most hiking or ceramic filters. A HUGE difference. |
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florescent lamps have reduced output at lower temps, I did a quick search and
found this is true for uv lamps also, I didn't find any numbers but if the lamp is cold you need to lower your flow rate apropriatly. if I rember at 32 degrees a normal 40w tube puts out 3 watts worth of light. |
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Originally Posted By LadyMacBeth:
florescent lamps have reduced output at lower temps, I did a quick search and found this is true for uv lamps also, I didn't find any numbers but if the lamp is cold you need to lower your flow rate apropriatly. if I rember at 32 degrees a normal 40w tube puts out 3 watts worth of light. Good info LM. So water processing in bulk should be done during the warmest part of cold days. RO filters have greater flow when warmer too and a valve in the bypass line can be used to adjust the baypass flow to the output flow, saving water if the bypass water isn't to be reused. On cold days working inside or having some foil or Astro-foil insulation to make a solar reflector would help a lot too. |
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This is in context of a temporary BOL type water treatment system, not one to carry in a BOB.
Wanted to add to this thread the availability of the Sawyer brand of .2 and .02 micron filters and their potential importance as a prefilter to a portable RO system, including in a gravity feed system. A brief experiment the other day indicated that the Sawyer filter in fact does, as claimed, pass water with little impediment [pressure drop] at least when new. A lot of experimentation needs to be done, however the claimed performance of the Sawyer, when put ahead of an RO filter, might drastically reduce the need for the 20 to 30% "wash" water that usually bypasses the RO element. LadyMcBeth here has talked about not using that 'wash' water port at all, and once a week IIRC, back flushing the RO element. That is very easily done if the normally supplied 'accumulator' tank [part of the box store RO kits] is installed after the RO element and a small water pump [powered by whatever you have] is used to pressurize the system. |
Thanks for the bump––saved me from hunting this thread up. I was thinking I'd try an RO setup with my rain collectors.
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I give myself, my heart, my soul to give some friend a hand
This morning I was born again, I am in the promised land
--W. Guthrie via Ray Wylie Hubbard
This morning I was born again, I am in the promised land
--W. Guthrie via Ray Wylie Hubbard
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Originally Posted By EXPY37:
LadyMcBeth here has talked about not using that 'wash' water port at all, and once a week IIRC, back flushing the RO element. That is very easily done if the normally supplied 'accumulator' tank [part of the box store RO kits] is installed after the RO element and a small water pump [powered by whatever you have] is used to pressurize the system. The actual term is concentrate port. And back flushing is a very bad idea. The membranes will not take kindly to having a reverse d/p across the membrane. It may be that what she is actually doing is plugging the concentrate port and periodically flushing that side of the membrane. Not the brightest thing in the world either, but for water with a relative low amount of hardness, it would probably work. If you have relatively high levels of hardness, doing this will form scale on the membrane which I assure you is bad. |
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Originally Posted By ilbob:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
LadyMcBeth here has talked about not using that 'wash' water port at all, and once a week IIRC, back flushing the RO element. That is very easily done if the normally supplied 'accumulator' tank [part of the box store RO kits] is installed after the RO element and a small water pump [powered by whatever you have] is used to pressurize the system. The actual term is concentrate port. And back flushing is a very bad idea. The membranes will not take kindly to having a reverse d/p across the membrane. It may be that what she is actually doing is plugging the concentrate port and periodically flushing that side of the membrane. Not the brightest thing in the world either, but for water with a relative low amount of hardness, it would probably work. If you have relatively high levels of hardness, doing this will form scale on the membrane which I assure you is bad. Couple of questions Ibob. In a standard home RO installation with an accumulator tank, when the main house water valve is closed and a negative DP is applied across the RO membrane, why isn't the RO membrane damaged, or is it? How about when a toilet is flushed or other flow that creates a negative DP across the membrane? Would you explain how you could back-flush with the concentrate port closed? Why would scale be more likely to form on the membrane when it was back-flushed than in normal operation? |
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Originally Posted By fortunesfool223:
ESPY37, do you envision the Sawyer filter being used as a replacement for the RO system, or as a supplement to it? Depends entirely on your application. Extreme portability, Sawyer. Base camp, RO and/or the combination of RO and Sawyer. If virus threats or chemicals are an issue, RO and secondarily, carbon filters, preferably both. All can be gravity fed and using a "passive" water "purification" system gives you more time and options than an "active" one requiring a fire to boil or distill. |
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I made a water collector to go around the base of a building. It is 4" PVC pipe and a 3 inch slot is sawed in it with spacers left at 2 points for stability.
With a light rain the other day I was able to collect about 8 gallons of water w/out trying hard. I'll let it clean the bldg for a while before using it for potable purposes. And then only after carbon and RO processing to remove dissolved chemicals. |
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Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
I'm assuming that this works like a standard RO system and will remove salt, yes? Salt water RO systems usually have a different/stronger membrane and use much higher pressures. They are completely different from the 'household' systems described here. Household systems will reject small concentrations of 'salt' [sodium and chlorine ions]. In any case, fresh water you process needs to be cleaned up well via prefiltering with sediment and charcoal/carbon block filters and maybe even a ceramic filter before the RO stage. |
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Originally Posted By EXPY37: Originally Posted By TornMonkey: I'm assuming that this works like a standard RO system and will remove salt, yes? Salt water RO systems usually have a different/stronger membrane and use much higher pressures. They are completely different from the 'household' systems described here. Household systems will reject small concentrations of 'salt' [sodium and chlorine ions]. In any case, fresh water you process needs to be cleaned up well via prefiltering with sediment and charcoal/carbon block filters and maybe even a ceramic filter before the RO stage. I was afraid of that, my ample water supply just became plain salt water  |
Trust. But verify.
That includes this, and all other posts.
Not only is this one a Fed, but seems to be another Airedale Wingnut Squid. -JS98010
That includes this, and all other posts.
Not only is this one a Fed, but seems to be another Airedale Wingnut Squid. -JS98010
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Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
I'm assuming that this works like a standard RO system and will remove salt, yes? Salt water RO systems usually have a different/stronger membrane and use much higher pressures. They are completely different from the 'household' systems described here. Household systems will reject small concentrations of 'salt' [sodium and chlorine ions]. In any case, fresh water you process needs to be cleaned up well via prefiltering with sediment and charcoal/carbon block filters and maybe even a ceramic filter before the RO stage. I was afraid of that, my ample water supply just became plain salt water
You're in Washington near salt water? Just collect rain water, you'll be amazed how much you can collect off a small area of your roof. |
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Possibly a little OT, but I have an MSR-made "Water-Maker" which is a hand-pumped de-salinator for liferaft types.
My question is: Is this an RO device? And secondarily, should I store it with the mfr-supplied biocide (gunk-killer) within it, or dry? Appreciate any answers. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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Originally Posted By EXPY37: Originally Posted By TornMonkey: Originally Posted By EXPY37: Originally Posted By TornMonkey: I'm assuming that this works like a standard RO system and will remove salt, yes? Salt water RO systems usually have a different/stronger membrane and use much higher pressures. They are completely different from the 'household' systems described here. Household systems will reject small concentrations of 'salt' [sodium and chlorine ions]. In any case, fresh water you process needs to be cleaned up well via prefiltering with sediment and charcoal/carbon block filters and maybe even a ceramic filter before the RO stage. I was afraid of that, my ample water supply just became plain salt water You're in Washington near salt water? Just collect rain water, you'll be amazed how much you can collect off a small area of your roof. I am 2 blocks from the Sound, I plan on setting up a rainwater collection system when I re-roof my place next year, but having an infinite supply down the hill would have been nice.  |
Trust. But verify.
That includes this, and all other posts.
Not only is this one a Fed, but seems to be another Airedale Wingnut Squid. -JS98010
That includes this, and all other posts.
Not only is this one a Fed, but seems to be another Airedale Wingnut Squid. -JS98010
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Originally Posted By raf:
Possibly a little OT, but I have an MSR-made "Water-Maker" which is a hand-pumped de-salinator for liferaft types. My question is: Is this an RO device? And secondarily, should I store it with the mfr-supplied biocide (gunk-killer) within it, or dry? Appreciate any answers. I think it's an RO 'filter'. Beyond that I don't know. There might be an ops manual on the net. |
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Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
I'm assuming that this works like a standard RO system and will remove salt, yes? Salt water RO systems usually have a different/stronger membrane and use much higher pressures. They are completely different from the 'household' systems described here. Household systems will reject small concentrations of 'salt' [sodium and chlorine ions]. In any case, fresh water you process needs to be cleaned up well via prefiltering with sediment and charcoal/carbon block filters and maybe even a ceramic filter before the RO stage. I was afraid of that, my ample water supply just became plain salt water
You're in Washington near salt water? Just collect rain water, you'll be amazed how much you can collect off a small area of your roof. I am 2 blocks from the Sound, I plan on setting up a rainwater collection system when I re-roof my place next year, but having an infinite supply down the hill would have been nice.
Oh well, you have a NEAR infinite supply from your roof... 
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Here's a link that I found to a supplier of all sorts of larger home type filters, cartridges, elements, housing, fittings, etc, [as well as hiking filters too], like some mentioned earlier in this topic [whose links have gotten old and don't work].
Their prices are full retail and HIGH! But they are a good fast resource and can be used as a quick reference and/or source if you have the $$$. [Personally, I am quite happy with the incredible deals from ebay, and the sellers there haven't let me down yet] Here's the link and the list of all the parts they sell is on the left of the page. http://www.filtersfast.com/ Remember, like the LDS says in their publications, you got to have water first. |
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Bumping this because it's hurricane season and this info might help someone get a drink.
Note most RO membranes now in the stores are TFC and you will need 60 psi for nice operation. See this topic–– http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_18/649827_.html&page=1 |
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Here's a new hookup for a portable sized RO system.
Got word that the storage under the sink was all wet. Looked, there was a leak from the sprayer, the thing that you pull out from the right side of the faucet to spray the dishes, dog, etc. Apparently the hose to the base of the sprayer was going bad. So, looking at the faucet and the sprayer, I decided to upgrade the faucet to a new fancy one and free up the hole to the right on the back of the sink. I'd installed in the old faucet one of these Reverse Osmosis Diverter Valves that screw into the end of the faucet and requires two 1/4 tubes to go to it. There's a button to push to direct water to the RO system instead of coming out the faucet. The hoses wouldn't make a hi maintenance lady too happy... More RO Diverter valves here... Diverter Valves So I got the brilliant idea to install an additional single faucet in the now available right side hole to supply the RO system that sits on the counter.
Found one at H-D for $19. Here's the setup, probably the only one like it in the world... 
New Delta faucet, new auxiliary faucet. 
This little RO system cost ~$55, has been pumping out pure H2O since around 2007, no kidney stones since, [knock on wood] on it's original RO membrane, TDS readings are still great, and no pallets of water to haul or big bottled water expense. Probably has saved $1000 to $2000 IDK, in bottled water. Many thousands of gallons thru the system, all run through me and my SO.
This is mostly all we drink here, except occasional other stuff and in bathroom taking vitamins or brushing teeth, etc. We have RO installations at all locations.
The big plastic tank in the right side of the last photo is the storage for RO that my SO uses to fill my jugs at my desk. Then I fill a 32 oz Gatorade from the jug as needed. SO has her RO water in the same kind of tank in the fridge and drinks it cold. |
I see us collectively as a country bumpkin, sitting on a log with a rifle, having no understanding what's going on beyond a few trees away, about to be enslaved with no interest by whom or what.
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A heads up re RO membrane cartridges...
For the past 6 months the RO system at the mtn where all my drinking water there is processed [the RO water is only used for drinking and follows the ceramic and carbon block 10" cartridges that process water for brushing teeth and cooking, washing dishes, etc] has been slowing. So last Fall I tried 'reverse' flushing it. That helped somewhat but in a couple months the flow slowed again to a trickle. Note we added an RO 'boost pump' to the system that increases our normal RV pump pressure, that varies from abt 40 to 60 psi [where I adjusted the set point of its pressure switch] [Our water is stored in a used approx. 40 gallon RV plastic holding tank that we refill periodically from larger tanks located elsewhere. The 40 gallons is used for cooking and brushing teeth and to supply the RO system for drinking water. A system like this can be assembled for roughly the price of 500 rds of 223]. The RO boost pump adds about 15 additional psi to the system water pressure and goes inline between the 3/8" system pressure line and the 1/4" RO set line. One reason I added it was to overcome the slowing 'clogging' RO membrane that I didn't understand the mechanism why it was becoming restricted, now I do.
The RO system was added to the existing ceramic/carbon block system, according to the date I wrote on the RO membrane, in the Summer of 2011 So it's been in service for 3 years, and considering how much RO water we drink, has had maybe 500 gallons thru it ---that is not much compared to the RO system on the countertop in the post above this one. When I unscrewed the RO cartridge holder cap [I put one of those plastic nut jars like you get from the box food stores under it to catch water and not get it all over the container and I was surprised how little mess I made]
The RO cartridge felt SLIMEY when I pulled it out. What has happened is that the chlorine that is in the utility water we haul to the mtn dissipates, since some of the water we use in the 40 gallon container storage tank, may have sat for a couple years and endured several freeze thaw cycles before being transferred to the container. The lack of chlorine allowed some sort of apparently harmless bacteria to grow in the RO membrane [a known issue for un- chlorinated water, I just didn't think it could happen to me... 
It took 3 years to pretty much clog it up, and the change to the new one took all of 5 minutes. I replaced a 100 gallon per day membrane with a 35 gallon per day one, I got several on ebay for abt $15 ea years ago, the flow is GREAT, surprising for a 35 g/d one. I love working on these water systems, they are so nicely engineered and refined over the years to make them super simple and cheap to buy, install and maintain. Especially the Guest push in quick connects on all the components [like a toy plumbing kit that I dreamed of having years before all this stuff was invented] that make reconfiguring 1/4" lines for installation, testing, etc, so easy. I'm going to shock the system, in a day or so by putting a bit of Chlorox, not much because chlorine can damage the newer TFC synthetic membranes, into the 40 gallon tank. Understand that only maybe half of the 40 gallon tank contents are run thru the additional RO system for drinking, the rest is processed only by the ceramic candle and the carbon filter. The ceramic candle, as I think I posted abt last year, had clogged with calcium sediment, and the nice thing with those is that they can be removed from their standard 10" housings and 'scrubbed' with a bit of Scotchbrite while washing and they are good as new. Incidentally, just the ceramic candle and the carbon block filters do reduce the TDS [Total Dissolved Solids, that you can easily measure with a $20 'pen' that you dip into a sample of water] by about half ---for our water. Of course, once run thru the RO system, the TDS measurement is in the teens, about 5% of untreated water. |
I see us collectively as a country bumpkin, sitting on a log with a rifle, having no understanding what's going on beyond a few trees away, about to be enslaved with no interest by whom or what.
| RO membranes last longer at recommended pressures. 75gpd filters tend to be the most efficient by a little bit. You should use a flow restrictor rated for your membrane along with decent pressure and temp if you want more efficient filtering (less waste water = less water to haul). |
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In the off grid mountain system, we recycle the so called 'waste water' back into the main storage tank, where it is reprocessed, and use a Guest inline valve for restricting the 'waste' flow and maintaining pressure on the membrane.
Your point on the restrictor is well taken and I may put some sort of differential gauge arrangement to better set the valve. Will have to think about this... Since the volume of RO water vs simply ceramic candle processed water are about equal and the 40 gallon main storage tank is pretty much emptied before refilling, this system works very well with no 'waste'. For conventional home use, there are inexpensive pumps that will overcome the modest pressure differential and re-inject the 'waste' RO water back into the cold water line, so no water is lost. We don't bother with them with utility water, but would if water were a more precious resource, as in the mountains. |
I see us collectively as a country bumpkin, sitting on a log with a rifle, having no understanding what's going on beyond a few trees away, about to be enslaved with no interest by whom or what.
SMALL SMART VIBRANT BEAR NEEDS........... NEW HOME
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This is an older pinned topic and I've bumped it for an inquiry today.
Some images may no longer be available. |
I see us collectively as a country bumpkin, sitting on a log with a rifle, having no understanding what's going on beyond a few trees away, about to be enslaved with no interest by whom or what.