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Posted: 8/17/2020 10:36:26 AM EDT
My boat is paid for and I do the work myself....save the "break out another thousand" "Best day in a boaters life...." cliches.
 1994 5.7liter Mercruiser, Bravo 2. No start condition. I didn't change my hoses as I should have and had a cooling hose blow out. Salt water did get in engine compartment. I turned the motor off and it sat for a week or so until I got new hoses on it. No sign on salt water in any connection. Turns over, gets fire, is timed. New plugs, wires, cap, in cap sensor and coil. I did the factory troubleshooting chart. It may be turning over too slow. I am afraid I may have some corrosion in the starter. It's a bitch to change, so I used a troubleshooting chart to check it out. Although these numbers aren't perfect, they aren't bad enough for me to pull the starter...unless the internet has a consensus that it needs to be done. The terminals all appear to be clean/corrosion free. Battery voltage: 13.5 Hot Circuit B terminal on solenoid to Positive battery should = 0 volts -Not cranking = 36 millivolts -Cranking = 1 volt Ground Circuit Negative on battery to starter housing 0 Ohms / 21 millivolts -Cranking = 0.7 volts S terminal to positive on battery should be battery voltage -Not cranking = 13.48 volts - Cranking = 1.6 volts |
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Posted: 8/17/2020 10:42:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#1]
I feel your pain on changing that starter but it's really not bad if you don't mind working upside down. 2 terminals and 2 bolts. Various socket extensions help.
Just did it this year in my grandparents 01 Bayliner deck boat before selling it. Would have been much easier if it wasn't 95f and muggy with sweat constantly in my eyes. When's the last time you pulled the carb? Assuming you've checked fuel flow. Non-ethanol only? Had the accel pump plunger fall in this boat, made it a nightmare to cold start. Needed a rebuild anyway from years of premium fuel (vs ethanol-free like i told them to run) and runs like a top ever since.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 8/17/2020 11:31:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#2]
Load test the battery or sub a known good one. Check cables for splitting or corrosion.
If you are measuring your cable resistance, it could test OK and not carry acceptable current. I had a split cable that I missed. Vehicle started every time, right up until it went flat dead. The split cable was corroded and didn't look that bad, but it failed. |
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Posted: 8/17/2020 12:18:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Battery cables ohm out good.
I’ve used a starter box even though the batteries were bought in February. Non-ethanol only. Carb spraying gas. That deck boat has much more room than mine. I can change the starter but the test that I posted says it’s good. Oh, I’ve also disconnected the tach and ran a hot straight to the coil. |
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Posted: 8/17/2020 3:41:19 PM EDT
[#4]
I'll reply this evening. Too hard to type on my phone.
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Posted: 8/17/2020 9:34:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#5]
Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO: My boat is paid for and I do the work myself....save the "break out another thousand" "Best day in a boaters life...." cliches. 1994 5.7liter Mercruiser, Bravo 2. No start condition. I didn't change my hoses as I should have and had a cooling hose blow out. Salt water did get in engine compartment. I turned the motor off and it sat for a week or so until I got new hoses on it. No sign on salt water in any connection. Turns over, gets fire, is timed. New plugs, wires, cap, in cap sensor and coil. I did the factory troubleshooting chart. It may be turning over too slow. I am afraid I may have some corrosion in the starter. It's a bitch to change, so I used a troubleshooting chart to check it out. Although these numbers aren't perfect, they aren't bad enough for me to pull the starter...unless the internet has a consensus that it needs to be done. The terminals all appear to be clean/corrosion free. Battery voltage: 13.5 Hot Circuit B terminal on solenoid to Positive battery should = 0 volts -Not cranking = 36 millivolts -Cranking = 1 volt Ground Circuit Negative on battery to starter housing 0 Ohms / 21 millivolts -Cranking = 0.7 volts S terminal to positive on battery should be battery voltage -Not cranking = 13.48 volts - Cranking = 1.6 volts The large copper stud NOT connected to the starter motor by a short braided strap should be where the battery cable connects. The "S" terminal should have a yellow wire with red tracer on it and should be +/- battery voltage only while cranking. If there is a purple wire with yellow tracer in the harness near the starter, it should go to the "I" terminal. This wire supplies 12v to the electric fuel pump/ign coil if equipped when cranking only. Once the engine fires the voltage to the electric fuel pump/ign coil is supplied by the purple wire coming from the ignition switch on the dash.  A terminal/stud to battery B terminal/stud small yellow/red wire (S) terminal C goes direct to starter motor windings, no wires connect here except for the one that goes into the starter housing. D is the "I" terminal and may have a small purple/yellow wire on it. |
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Posted: 8/17/2020 11:29:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#6]
The fuel pump is mechanical.
I relabeled everything below. Your saying the "S" post should only have battery voltage when cranking? I giess I misread the flow sheet I used to trouble shoot this starter or the Mercruiser set up is different than a regular SBC. What causes mine to have the voltage when NOT cranking and how can the starter crank under this condition? The terminals all appear to be clean/corrosion free. Battery voltage: 13.5 Hot Circuit "A" terminal on solenoid to Positive battery should = 0 volts -Not cranking = 36 millivolts -Cranking = 1 volt Ground Circuit Negative on battery to starter housing stud 0 Ohms / 21 millivolts -Cranking = 0.7 volts "S" or "B" YELLOW WIRE terminal to positive on battery should be battery voltage -Not cranking = 13.48 volts - Cranking = 1.6 volts |
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Posted: 8/18/2020 11:58:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HELOBRAVO: The fuel pump is mechanical. I relabeled everything below. Your saying the "S" post should only have battery voltage when cranking? I giess I misread the flow sheet I used to trouble shoot this starter or the Mercruiser set up is different than a regular SBC. What causes mine to have the voltage when NOT cranking and how can the starter crank under this condition? The terminals all appear to be clean/corrosion free. Battery voltage: 13.5 Hot Circuit "A" terminal on solenoid to Positive battery should = 0 volts -Not cranking = 36 millivolts -Cranking = 1 volt Ground Circuit Negative on battery to starter housing stud 0 Ohms / 21 millivolts -Cranking = 0.7 volts "S" or "B" YELLOW WIRE terminal to positive on battery should be battery voltage -Not cranking = 13.48 volts - Cranking = 1.6 volts The A terminal should have battery voltage on it (or close to batt voltage) at all times (assuming the battery switch is on if equipped) even when cranking. I don't see how the starter would crank with only one volt on the A terminal. The S terminal stands for "solenoid" and should be close to battery voltage only when cranking. This is the wire that triggers the solenoid when the ignition switch is in the start mode. The solenoid bridges the two larger copper studs when triggered passing high current to the starter motor. IIRC you said in a past post that the starter had been submerged. I recall saying at that time that I had never seen a starter that had been submerged last very long afterwards especially in salt water. I would bet the starter/solenoid is corroded internally and would replace it (entire starter) before it leaves you stranded out on the water. I would also re-check your wiring because the voltage numbers you posted don't jive. ETA - The ground cable from the battery should be connected to one of the flywheel cover (bell housing in automotive terms) bolts and not the starter mounting bolts. One of the flywheel cover bolts should be a stud and have several ground wires hooked to it. Check this stud for corrosion and tightness. I have also seen the mounting flange between the starter and engine block become corroded and not making good contact with the block. This will make for a bad ground between the starter/block and battery. Salt water is the debbil.
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Posted: 8/25/2020 4:46:57 PM EDT
[#8]
@kb7dx
Broke down and took boat to a shop. They verified everything I did, scratched their head and did a compression check. I never did that because my oil looked good and....why? Well, zero compression in number one. They needed boats taken home because the shop is across the street from the bayou and may flood, so I picked it up and will pull motor and check it out in a week or so. My theory is some salt water contamination and rust in cylinder, wiped rings. My fault, didn’t change hoses when I should have. I’ll update when I know more. |
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Posted: 8/25/2020 5:01:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#9]
No water in the oil? Rings are probably OK. My guess (from 1000 miles away) is the
valve stems are rusty holding the valves open. A leak down test would confirm this. At this point you may as well pull the engine and work on it so it's accessible. Doing major work with the engine down in the hole is a PITA. ETA - Spark plugs are a good indicator if there's rust in the cylinder. If the plugs aren't rusty then the cylinder probably isn't either. |
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Posted: 8/25/2020 5:04:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#10]
Yeah. Pulling it really isn’t as big a deal as it seems the first couple of times.
I may check all compression and if isolated, pop valve cover lube stems and feed cord into cylinder and turn over to close valves if open. How’s that sound? |
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Posted: 8/25/2020 5:08:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Sounds like a good time for refresh on motor. Bore,balance, blueprint,cam,etc? Do 5.7 get done like a car motor looking for more power?
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Posted: 8/25/2020 6:23:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HELOBRAVO: Yeah. Pulling it really isn’t as big a deal as it seems the first couple of times. I may check all compression and if isolated, pop valve cover lube stems and feed cord into cylinder and turn over to close valves if open. How’s that sound? You can check for a stuck valve by removing the valve cover, remove the rocker arms and lay a straight edge across all the valve stem tips. See if one is lower than the others. They won't all be exactly on the straight edge because of tolerances, but it will expose the "odd man out". Sometimes tapping on the valve stem tip with a plastic mallet will free up a sticky valve but this is not a long term solution. Tap it only on the tip! Striking the retainer may make a valve keeper to pop out dropping the valve into the cylinder.  You can remove the exhaust manifold and get a look at the exhaust valve stem as well. Still, a leak down tester is pretty cheap nowadays and is a worth while investment if you do much engine work. |
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Posted: 8/25/2020 6:30:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zoe17: Sounds like a good time for refresh on motor. Bore,balance, blueprint,cam,etc? Do 5.7 get done like a car motor looking for more power? Marine engines can be treated like automotive engines to a point but marine engines are cammed for higher RPM operation. Generally a 5.7 GM based marine engine makes peak power between 4400 and 4800 RPM's. The typical automobile engine is cammed to make peak torque at about 2200 RPM's. This is one reason that auto engines pulled from an auto salvage yard are not good for a marine installation. Not only are auto engines not cammed for marine use, they have plain steel cored head gaskets where marine head gaskets are stainless steel cored. Some marine engines also use forged rotating assemblies whereas auto engines use a cast crank etc.. The cast parts won't take the extended high RPM usage a marine engine sees. |
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Posted: 9/2/2020 11:24:48 PM EDT
[#14]
@kb7dx
Looked at motor today. Bore scoped the cylinders. I have valves with corrosion on them. Water got to carb, although it was running fine when I turned it off... Took off valve covers and bore scoped the cylinders with loose rockers. The valves that were open when I turned it off are prevented from closing due to corrosion. They do open more when the lobe comes around, but do not close completely. Thinking about putting plugs in and "misting" the intake with some sort of lube and see if I cant get them to close. I'd try some cord in the cylinders but I'm afraid it's get tangled in the open valve before pushing it closed. I am in denial, the motor will come out, but if there's a chance it doesn't have to , I'll try it.
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Posted: 9/3/2020 2:15:07 PM EDT
[#15]
How far open are the valves that are stuck? Any chance they have touched the
piston when the engine was cranked over? Automatic transmission fluid is a good lube to try and free up rusted things. We have used it to free up engines that have rust in the cylinders and rusty valves. This isn't the preferred method, but it may work for you. Squirt some ATF into the spark plug holes and re-install plugs. Crank engine over several revolutions and let it sit for a day or two. This will spread the ATF around in the cylinder. |
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Posted: 9/3/2020 6:24:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: How far open are the valves that are stuck? Any chance they have touched the piston when the engine was cranked over? Automatic transmission fluid is a good lube to try and free up rusted things. We have used it to free up engines that have rust in the cylinders and rusty valves. This isn't the preferred method, but it may work for you. Squirt some ATF into the spark plug holes and re-install plugs. Crank engine over several revolutions and let it sit for a day or two. This will spread the ATF around in the cylinder. I could see the piston tops, they're fine. I'll do the ATF thing. Can't do it until Monday or Tuesday. Stay tuned for updates!
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Posted: 9/4/2020 10:10:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Did you figure out the starter issue? Is it cranking slow because of rust in the cylinders?
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Posted: 9/5/2020 6:37:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Did you figure out the starter issue? Is it cranking slow because of rust in the cylinders? Everything was fine except no compression. |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 3:35:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Did you figure out the starter issue? Is it cranking slow because of rust in the cylinders? Starter fine. I could see in cylinders, they were fine, just corrosion on valves and stems. I put tranny fluid in cylinders and cranked a bit. I'll see if that helped in a few days. |
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Posted: 9/12/2020 2:46:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#20]
@KB7DX
Looked at it today. No change after tryin tranny fluid. We hit the valve stems with a hammer and they didn't move...holy fuuuckkk. We did happen to notice that the on the stuck valves, the friggin' rocker studs were pushed up varying distances. Gonna pull motor this week. A friend who's a legit engineer says salt water on the valve stems should not have effected them enough to cause the issue. Valve guides may be a different story, but who knows. He thinks overheating may be the issue and I may have corrosion from a failed head gasket, although I saw no signs of overheating or water in cylinders. Will know next week. |
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Posted: 9/12/2020 3:30:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HELOBRAVO: @KB7DX Looked at it today. No change after tryin tranny fluid. We hit the valve stems with a hammer and they didn't move...holy fuuuckkk. We did happen to notice that the on the stuck valves, the friggin' rocker studs were pushed up varying distances. Gonna pull motor this week. A friend who's a legit engineer says salt water on the valve stems should have effected them enough to cause the issue. Valve guides may be a different story, but who knows. He thinks overheating may be the issue and I may have corrosion from a failed head gasket, although I saw no signs of overheating or water in cylinders. Will know next week.
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Posted: 9/12/2020 9:02:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HELOBRAVO: @KB7DX Looked at it today. No change after tryin tranny fluid. We hit the valve stems with a hammer and they didn't move...holy fuuuckkk. We did happen to notice that the on the stuck valves, the friggin' rocker studs were pushed up varying distances. Gonna pull motor this week. A friend who's a legit engineer says salt water on the valve stems should not have effected them enough to cause the issue. Valve guides may be a different story, but who knows. He thinks overheating may be the issue and I may have corrosion from a failed head gasket, although I saw no signs of overheating or water in cylinders. Will know next week. I can tell you from first hand experience that corroded valve stems are a thing. Even fresh water will corrode them in pretty short order if they sit for a while. I suppose that galled valve stems could cause the valves to stick but I've never seen that in person. For the stems/guides to become galled they would have had to been without lubrication for some time. Keep updating this post as you progress. |
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Posted: 9/14/2020 3:11:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RDTCU: I feel your pain on changing that starter but it's really not bad if you don't mind working upside down. 2 terminals and 2 bolts. Various socket extensions help. Just did it this year in my grandparents 01 Bayliner deck boat before selling it. Would have been much easier if it wasn't 95f and muggy with sweat constantly in my eyes. When's the last time you pulled the carb? Assuming you've checked fuel flow. Non-ethanol only? Had the accel pump plunger fall in this boat, made it a nightmare to cold start. Needed a rebuild anyway from years of premium fuel (vs ethanol-free like i told them to run) and runs like a top ever since. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/173511/IMG_20200601_185406_jpg-1550178.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/173511/IMG_20200601_185054_jpg-1550179.JPG Just found out the family that bought this boat totaled it and their tow vehicle... They took it home with a F350 dually but they were towing it with a Yukon when it happened...  Jerked the wheel, got in the death wobble, probably stabbed the brakes, looped it and flipped over in the ditch. Nobody was hurt. |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 10:15:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Marine engines can be treated like automotive engines to a point but marine engines are cammed for higher RPM operation. Generally a 5.7 GM based marine engine makes peak power between 4400 and 4800 RPM's. The typical automobile engine is cammed to make peak torque at about 2200 RPM's. This is one reason that auto engines pulled from an auto salvage yard are not good for a marine installation. Not only are auto engines not cammed for marine use, they have plain steel cored head gaskets where marine head gaskets are stainless steel cored. Some marine engines also use forged rotating assemblies whereas auto engines use a cast crank etc.. The cast parts won't take the extended high RPM usage a marine engine sees. LOL, and back in the day, some marine conversions were reverse rotation, so cam, distributer, etc wouldn't interchange. Got laughed at pretty good when someone told me why my POS Chrysler engine was giving me fits.
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Posted: 10/8/2020 7:18:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#25]
Tore it down to short block today. It had to have gotten salt water in the intake.
No manifold or head gaskets looked bad, but there was rust all over in there. Looks like the heads are toast. I have to compare price for rebuild vs just buying rebuilt. Whatever happened, the valves that were corroded in place pushed some of the studs out (not completely) of the head when I was working on it. I had to use a hammer and a long punch to drive one of the valves out. Not messing with the rest. My cylinders are mostly OK. There are a couple with light abrasions that I would be perfectly happy to hone out myself. One had some kind of dirt like shit in it that I'm at a loss to explain. So, I'm looking at pulling the rotating assembly, inspecting it for obvious concerns and then is none, power washing the block/water jacket and reassembling. Heads seem to be so expensive, I'm considering just getting reman long block. I'm looking at THIS one. What's the difference between the marine and regular heads? I know the gaskets are marine specific. I'd like to use the short block I have as it is not in bad shape. I realize the pics are bad, but the pistons and cylinders are OK.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/8/2020 9:32:42 PM EDT
[#26]
It's pretty hard to get water into the intake manifold. I bet it came up
through the exhaust. Are the exhaust "flappers" still present in the "Y" pipe? The flappers are designed to keep water from backing up into the engine if you take a big wave from behind when the engine is not running. I have also seen marine engines siphon water back up the exhaust when overheated. The overheating usually burns the rubber flappers out and when the engine cools the the contracting air/exhaust gasses draw the water up the system into the cylinders that have the exhaust valves open. The "dirt" like substance could be many things. Mice have a tendency to find their way up the prop hub and into the exhaust system and stash stuff in there. Could be mud dobber nests? Hard to say really. At this point I would go ahead and buy a long block. "Marine" heads will generally have stainless steel valves instead of normal carbon steel valves. They can still rust, just not as badly as normal valves. Mouse story... Had a customer bring in his 225hp merc 2-stroke outboard a few years ago. He said the starter was bad as it wouldn't turn over. We confirmed it wouldn't turn over and as part of the diagnosis we put a breaker bar on the flywheel nut to try and rotate it by hand. The engine did move slightly so we removed the gear case to see if it was locked up. It wasn't. As we removed the spark plugs there was this "dirt like" substance packed around the insulator on a few cylinders. Upon removing the heads we found dog food inside 3 or 4 cylinders. The mice had been stashing dog food inside the engine by jumping up into the prop hub and crawling up into the engine's exhaust cavity to stash their goodies. The customer was shocked when we told him what we had found but also replied the mice in his AO could jump quite a distance and had watched them jump up on top of his Jeep tires which were 37's. 
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Posted: 10/19/2020 9:28:19 PM EDT
[#27]
So I took the whole motor apart today. Holy fuck.
The head baskets are dry now and not all that looked like head gasket was.... There was mud in the motor. The motor Ran 100% like a top for 2 years until the cooling hose blew. It hadn’t been anywhere it could have gotten mud in it in at least a year. I guess I’m lucky the hose blew. Although it almost certainly overheated because of that. All the bearings and races look good and only 2 cylinders need honing. Don’t know what I’m gonna do yet. Enjoy the pics!  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/19/2020 10:04:20 PM EDT
[#28]
That's quite a bit of rot on that head gasket. Was that engine ever rebuilt?
If it was whoever did it may have used an automotive gasket which won't survive in a marine environment very long. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 9:51:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: That's quite a bit of rot on that head gasket. Was that engine ever rebuilt? If it was whoever did it may have used an automotive gasket which won't survive in a marine environment very long. Although the Hobbs meter said 350 about 20 hours ago and I have no reason to doubt it as the boat and motor was spotless. But, one of the head gaskets was not like the other. We could not find any identifiable marks on either. The guy was retired GM guy and a serious hotrodder but I could see him using an automotive gasket since he was in Nevada and the boat was fresh water only. Right after I got the boat a couple of years ago I got it in some mud....twice and I quit going in Lake Pontchartrain. I think it got so much mud in it that it was dammed up in a couple of cooling passagers and the pressure steadily pushed it into some of the cylinders. Cleaning the pistons today if a hone cleans up the two cylinders. I do have a machinist friend who will come check dimensions if I decide to try to put it back together. I know a long block makes sense, but I like a project and have a few hundred I can waste. Heads are $250 with my shop account at O'reilly. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 1:20:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Head gasket composition is important. Doesn't make any difference whether
it's in salt or fresh water. Marine head gaskets are subject to galvanic corrosion in addition to the "normal" corrosion issues with raw water cooling. Salt water just speeds up the process.  How do your manifolds look? Are the sealing surfaces between the manifold and elbow (riser) look good? |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 2:40:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Head gasket composition is important. Doesn't make any difference whether it's in salt or fresh water. Marine head gaskets are subject to galvanic corrosion in addition to the "normal" corrosion issues with raw water cooling. Salt water just speeds up the process. How do your manifolds look? Are the sealing surfaces between the manifold and elbow (riser) look good? Yeah. It's all good. My buddy the retired machinist looked/put a mic on the short block after I honed it today. There are some cylinder wall irregularities that would take an .008 bore to completely eliminate if going " by the book". The irregularities are minor enough that he'd be OK with the hone and re-ring if going into a passenger vehicle, but not a boat going off shore. He did say that any issues arising from just doing that would be over a long period of time and certainly not sudden and catastrophic. If I bored it 10 thousandths and bought heads, it'd make no sense when I can get a ready to go long block for $1600. So....anyways, I'm gonna re-ring the short block and put it to the side. Probably put it in my '84 Blazer. I do need to know what to do about the rear maincap to convert back to automobile style. The motor I just pulled is a two bolt main, which was a surprise. It does have the roller cam. I'll be shopping for a long block over the next couple of days. Is there a later model block I'd be better off getting for around the same price? Is there an automotive block that's desirable? I can change head gaskets and freeze plugs. I have an O'reily account with discounts. I've read the 14096217 heads are the exact same as auto and I've read the opposite? I can get those from O'reily for $245/each. Does an intake manifold upgrade make sense? Any tips and suggestions appreciated. , |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 2:46:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Get a marine long block.
Much better corrosion resistance. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 4:46:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HELOBRAVO: Yeah. It's all good. My buddy the retired machinist looked/put a mic on the short block after I honed it today. There are some cylinder wall irregularities that would take an .008 bore to completely eliminate if going " by the book". The irregularities are minor enough that he'd be OK with the hone and re-ring if going into a passenger vehicle, but not a boat going off shore. He did say that any issues arising from just doing that would be over a long period of time and certainly not sudden and catastrophic. If I bored it 10 thousandths and bought heads, it'd make no sense when I can get a ready to go long block for $1600. So....anyways, I'm gonna re-ring the short block and put it to the side. Probably put it in my '84 Blazer. I do need to know what to do about the rear maincap to convert back to automobile style. The motor I just pulled is a two bolt main, which was a surprise. It does have the roller cam. I'll be shopping for a long block over the next couple of days. Is there a later model block I'd be better off getting for around the same price? Is there an automotive block that's desirable? I can change head gaskets and freeze plugs. I have an O'reily account with discounts. I've read the 14096217 heads are the exact same as auto and I've read the opposite? I can get those from O'reily for $245/each. Does an intake manifold upgrade make sense? Any tips and suggestions appreciated. , Just order a marine replacement long block that is the correct replacement for the one you have now. Trying to "convert" an automotive style long block to marine use is not cost effective. You would have to swap the marine cam/lifters from your original engine into the new one as well as swapping the freeze (core) plugs to brass ones. As you know, the head gaskets are different too. While the cylinder head casting numbers may be the same, marine heads use stainless valves for the most part and brass freeze (core) plugs. As for the rear main cap, are you talking about the aluminum plate used to hold the rear main seal? Chevy small blocks changed in 1986 and went with a one piece rear main seal, center bolt valve covers and a different intake using a different bolt angle where it meets the heads. An intake swap isn't advised as Mercury has done lots of R&D with the cam/intake combo which really can't be improved on without going "full race". The cam/intake combo will give the best power over the RPM range with no mods. The .008 bore defect, is it tapered or out of round? Most marine engines don't usually accumulate enough hours to be tapered. Most don't even have a ring ridge and still have cross hatching in the cylinder even being 20 or 30 years old. An .008 out of round cylinder will have quite a bit of blow-by. Cast iron, raw water cooled marine engines are somewhat disposable in the grand scheme of things. Life expectancy is about 20 years in fresh water and a lot less in the brine. |
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Posted: 10/22/2020 12:24:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#34]
Thanks.
So, the rear aluminum late is marine or auto? I stopped rebuilding small blocks around ‘86.... Wasn’t sure if it had something to do with the marine flywheel/bell housing. The cylinder bores are round and well within spec but there were a few spots that had damage into the walls that would require a bore to eliminate. These rings are stuck. I mean I used a chisel and vise grips to get the oil rings and one compression ring off ONE piston. They are full of mud. I am utterly astounded that this motor ran so well. The gaps are touching and the rings do not move.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/22/2020 10:51:56 AM EDT
[#35]
The oil seal plate is on all 1986 and newer GM small blocks. It's not a marine only thing.
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Posted: 10/22/2020 10:35:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#36]
@kb7dx
Local guy has this. Any obvious concerns, just looking at it? Gonna try to see tomorrow. Get some block numbers and more info. Check compression if it looks legit. Motor was bought in 2002 and the buyer ran it a short shile and upgraded to a 454. The guy who bought this one got it for a "cabin cruiser". Supposedly not a hot rod engine. It was built by "American Skier Boats". Cam to be changed probably. The guy who owned the business is local, retired, but still in the parts business. I'm going to ask about details after I see engine. StupidBook Link  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/23/2020 10:52:51 AM EDT
[#37]
If that's an older efi engine I would pass. More when I get home.
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Posted: 10/23/2020 11:47:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: If that's an older efi engine I would pass. More when I get home. Just got back from looking at it. It's a Marine Power VMY109MK. Looks like new.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/23/2020 3:18:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#39]
If that's an older efi engine I would pass. More when I get home.
Double tap Even though the engine you posted only has 20 hours, a lot of damage can be done in short order in a marine application. I would pass on that engine. If you want a reliable engine with a warranty look at one of these. I've installed a few of these over the years and haven't had any trouble with them. These are brand new engines, not re-mans which means the castings aren't rotted internally. With a used engine, it may look pristine on the outside but be heavily pitted/rusted internally where you can't see it. This leads to cracking issues especially if it is overheated even a little. At this point in time, I refuse to install re-man cylinder heads or blocks of that era because of the corrosion issues. The older castings are just that, older, and who knows how many times they have been re-surfaced not to mention the corrosion. I only install new heads and blocks in boats that age and older as I've been bitten in the arse by 25 year old castings. Like I mentioned above, a cast iron, raw water cooled engine has a life expectancy of about 20 years. ETA- MM also has re-man engines but they are old castings.. |
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Posted: 10/26/2020 10:29:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#40]
So....even though I seriously appreciate the warnings and advice, I could not help myself.
Keep in mind, I do my own work and enjoy having a couple of projects going at all times. I scoped this engine and it's like new. The cylinders don't look used and I rotated them and checked the whole stroke. The lifter galley and heads look new. I was planning on pulling the manifold to check the cam for corrosion, but I'm not so sure that's necessary. If the TBI works I may try it out, but I may have to use my stock manifold with a carb due to the throttle and shifter linkage routing issues. I will change the oil which still looks like new before starting. I'm going to run it out of the boat for some heat cycles to test out the gaskets. The cooling system on this motor is worth almost what I paid for it. It's got a layer of dust on it in pic. For $1800 I couldn't pass it up. Flame suit on.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/27/2020 12:20:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Are you going to keep the closed cooling system on the engine? How's parts
availability on the TBI system if you need to replace parts? If you keep the cooling system will you be able to get to the water pump impeller once the engine is installed in the boat without having to remove the heat exchanger? Just some questions you have to ask yourself before creating something that's a PITA to service.  |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 9:54:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Are you going to keep the closed cooling system on the engine? I am. The cooling tank will have to come off for installation as on the previous engine, the nose of the power steering pump had to be watched when installing the engine. There is a lot of room under my deck. Gonna change the impeller to as the cooling tank will make that a PIA. Pic of my model boay, exactly, with this set up at end of post. How's parts availability on the TBI system if you need to replace parts? Won't be an issue according to my buddy who is familiar with the type. If you keep the cooling system will you be able to get to the water pump impeller once the engine is installed in the boat without having to remove the heat exchanger? It will be possible, just no fun. Just some questions you have to ask yourself before creating something that's a PITA to service. Thanks. I worked on it today. I don't know what configuration this motor was in , but the existing cooling hoses will have to be replaced. It looks like I can do it with mostly 1" straight hose cut to size. Of course I will use my "old" manifolds. I have to get the block for the risers and big nipples for the closed cooling. I will admit, I have not quite wrapped my head around the circulation in the manifolds, there are several ppe plugs to choose from. A couple of the hoses won't be able to route down the front of the engine, mostly because of the double pulley/belt set up.I called the company and they my throttle control should work with little issue. That was a major concern. I will get into the pig tail connector probably next week. That should be interesting, but I have the factory (Marine Power) manual with schematics. It's an interesting, if ill advised project.   Attached File |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 10:17:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#43]
I think you are setting yourself up for a lot of headaches if you try to install
that Marine Power setup in your boat. IMO, you should strip down the Marine Power setup to the long block and install all the Mercruiser parts on it and re-install it in the boat. Just from the pics I can see the Marine Power (MP) heat exchanger sticks out in front of the engine way more than the Mercruiser unit. This will make impeller servicing virtually impossible unless you are an Oompa Loompa or hire some 5 year old to squeeze in there. The throttle cable will have to be swapped out for one with a Mercury end on the control box side and a Morse end on the engine side if you stay with the MP setup. The cooling systems and manifolds (which are part of the cooling system) are carefully engineered to provide even cooling and conform to Coast Guard regs. Mixing and matching things may lead to un-even cooling, under cooling or even over cooling. I've been wrenching on boats professionally for 17 years and cannot think of one "franken boat" that doesn't have issues. ETA - The pic at the end of your post shows a Mercruiser closed cooling system. As you can see, the heat exchanger is above and behind the pulleys, not sticking out in front of them like the MP unit. I don't want to be Debbie Downer, just trying to keep you sane.
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Posted: 10/29/2020 10:26:29 PM EDT
[#44]
I've been a mechanic for years but have never done anything with boats. How the hell do you get the engine out? A standard cherry picker isn't getting in there. Overhead winch?
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:48:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Yes overhead winch or a big forklift and a chain hoist.
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:43:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: I think you are setting yourself up for a lot of headaches if you try to install that Marine Power setup in your boat. IMO, you should strip down the Marine Power setup to the long block and install all the Mercruiser parts on it and re-install it in the boat. Just from the pics I can see the Marine Power (MP) heat exchanger sticks out in front of the engine way more than the Mercruiser unit. This will make impeller servicing virtually impossible unless you are an Oompa Loompa or hire some 5 year old to squeeze in there. The throttle cable will have to be swapped out for one with a Mercury end on the control box side and a Morse end on the engine side if you stay with the MP setup. The cooling systems and manifolds (which are part of the cooling system) are carefully engineered to provide even cooling and conform to Coast Guard regs. Mixing and matching things may lead to un-even cooling, under cooling or even over cooling. I've been wrenching on boats professionally for 17 years and cannot think of one "franken boat" that doesn't have issues. ETA - The pic at the end of your post shows a Mercruiser closed cooling system. As you can see, the heat exchanger is above and behind the pulleys, not sticking out in front of them like the MP unit. I don't want to be Debbie Downer, just trying to keep you sane. I may end up stripping it and using my original parts. I'm enjoying the thrill of the chase right now. My buddy and I are having fun messing around with it, so I'm in no hurry. I can get to the impeller, that’s low on my list of concerns right now. Of all things, this will not deter me from my task. I have that same impeller set up on the other engine. The cooling unit is hoses and 4 bolts to change impeller once a year, hopefully. If it's an issue, I have a skinny kid that's already done the inside work changing a thru hull fitting. The throttle cable is a concern but the guy who runs Marine Power said my controls will work and I’ve looked at it and don’t see an issue beyond possibly having to custom make the part for the TBI. I have a mill and lathe, so it’s in the realm of possibilities. I did get some manifolds in the deal that may or may not have been on the engine. I'll have to ask about any particulars concerning them. I am making a list to ask a MP tech. I don't want to bug theses guys too much. My engine harness pig tail matches my stock male connector on the boat. I'm gonna compare wiring diagrams this weekend. Of course, it's got some extra connections on the loom also. TBI/fuel pump/etc...I figure. I've got everything I need to dick around with this and there's worse projects to dick around with. If I needed the boat to get out of town in a hurry, I'd have stripped it, placed the carb and cranked her up in just a few hours. I'm off until Wednesday, so I'll probably buy a bunch of 1" hose, a temp/oil gauge, spin the oil pump and try to crank her. There's no rush, I'm savoring a project that I'm doing because I want to. I was getting tired of doing projects because I had to. Bear with me. I appreciate the input.
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:45:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Exorpmtech: I've been a mechanic for years but have never done anything with boats. How the hell do you get the engine out? A standard cherry picker isn't getting in there. Overhead winch? I've never done anything with boats. A guy told me that if I can pull a SBC, I can pull that motor. I've dome that many, many times....and he was right. Friend down the road has a chain fall in a tall metal shop. I have an overhead winch in my shop, but it'll only get it up on the deck. It's a high sided boat. The cockpit sides are about 6 feet off the pavement. |
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Posted: 11/12/2020 6:55:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Started it today.
I pulled the distributor to prime the oil pump and circulate the oil. Looking into the engine through the distributor shaft opening, it's so clean that it can't have even 20 hours on it. Although the fuel pumps aren't working, we started in with some fuel through the throttle body. It sounds awesome. This motor was a steal. I couldn't be happier. It has a lift pump before the high pressure pump. Neither work even with 12 volts straight to them. You can feel something engage in the high pressure pump, but it doesn't spin. I am getting fuel through the water seperator. I could accept both pumps were froze up from sitting for years but I'm not getting power from the harness to the pumps. I checked item while cranking. I have sufficient oil. I switched the fuel pump relay and it didn't help. I've got two mystery wires coming off the harness pigtail. I sent a pic to Marine Power to ask what they might be. Haven't heard back yet.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/13/2020 3:53:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KB7DX]
[#49]
Fuel pumps are probably locked up from sitting. More when I get home...
I'm home! Getting the "thump" out of them when hooking 12v directly to them indicates the motor part is free but the pump itself is locked up. You can try removing the pumps and soaking them in some Sea Foam to free them up. Mercury recommends soaking them in a chemical called "Power Tune" which smells a lot like Sea Foam. Once they have soaked for a while (overnight) some very light tapping with a plastic screwdriver handle will help free them up. If you get them freed up, do not run them dry. Always have some form of liquid (not water )going through them. ETA - I don't know what the extra wires are for. Is there an oil pressure safety switch above the oil filter boss on the block? It may also be "teed" into the oil pressure sender at the back of the block near the distributor. These have been known to fail but you should still have power to the pumps while cranking. Are there any wires hooked to the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid? This is where power is tapped to provide power to things like electric fuel pumps when the engine is cranking. You should try to get a schematic for that engine. It will help a lot. |
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Posted: 11/14/2020 11:08:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HELOBRAVO]
[#50]
replies in red.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: Fuel pumps are probably locked up from sitting. More when I get home... I'm home! Getting the "thump" out of them when hooking 12v directly to them indicates the motor part is free but the pump itself is locked up. You can try removing the pumps and soaking them in some Sea Foam to free them up. Mercury recommends soaking them in a chemical called "Power Tune" which smells a lot like Sea Foam. Will do that this week...work the weekend. Still don't have power from harness. Once they have soaked for a while (overnight) some very light tapping with a plastic screwdriver handle will help free them up. If you get them freed up, do not run them dry. Always have some form of liquid (not water )going through them. ETA - I don't know what the extra wires are for. The plug with the shielded hot is hot when the battery is connected. I thought it may be for a battery charger... Is there an oil pressure safety switch above the oil filter boss on the block? . It may also be "teed" into the oil pressure sender at the back of the block near the distributor. These have been known to fail but you should still have power to the pumps while cranking. Both are in the sending unit location. Are there any wires hooked to the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid? This is where power is tapped to provide power to things like electric fuel pumps when the engine is cranking. There is and they go where they should. You should try to get a schematic for that engine. It will help a lot. I have a MP manual with schematic. All the engine wiring is original and un-fucked. If I get pumps running, are they good to go or should I replace them? If it's possible, I comfortable rebuilding them of at least taking apart to clean. |
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