Thank you, sir! You have set my mind at ease for now. I won't propose to completely understand all of the above but I can work with it so thanks for taking the time to reply. I was a bit worried that having the shack on the second floor, running the coax along the floor to the opposite side of the room, up through the ceiling, and to the attic jpole antenna above me diagonally would cause issues. Im only about 35 ft from my antenna. I suppose it still might cause issues, but it sounds like something I can probably correct. I'm planning on getting an antenna tuner and/or an SWR meter to make sure I have a good SWR between the radio and antenna. Based the above, it sounds like confirming that would help things.

Barring something unforeseen with the annual bonus I'm getting next week, I will take the plunge to spend the $2k to set this up!

If you are just doing VHF / UHF to a Jpole, none of that will be an issue. You don't need an antenna tuner or an SWR meter for a VHF / UHF Jpole. Nobody uses them., The Jpole is a resonant antenna and the 50 watts from your mobile radio ( mush less so from an HT ) will not be an issue at all. If you are going to make antennas, then an antenna analyzer that can do the freqs you want is a very good idea. You can get a nanovna for $50-$60 that will go up past UHF. Before you do that ask here because there are good ones and not so good ones.

All that I wrote was about HF. I have never seen a tuner for VHF / UHF. The freq band is so small the antenna is resonant.  Save your money for HF equipment.

For VHF / UHF all you need is a radio, power supply, antenna, and coax cable. That is it.

Ah, ok thank you! I’m not making the step to HF until I feel good about my success with VHF/UHF. Regarding the 50w, wouldn’t my max output be 100w if I’m using a icom 9700? Not using a mobile rig.

Yep, didn't realize you had an IC-9700, nice radio. That already has a nice SWR display doesn't it?

The antenna be it VHF, UHF, or 1.2 Ghz will still be a resonant antenna so RFI in the shack should not be a problem even at 100 watts. The only possible issue would be proximity, not reflected power

Even at VHF, the lowest freq for that radio, the wavelength is 2 meters, which is 6.5 feet. If your antenna is 35 feet away, that is over 5 wavelengths away. That is like putting an 80 meter antenna 1200 feet away from the house. Mine is 30 feet from the house.

I don't think you will have any problems at all.

I was testing a new 50 watt mobile on my kitchen table couple of days ago programming it with my laptop. I set up a mobile antenna 4 feet away and testing the repeater programing at 50 watts. I had no issues with my laptop being 4 feet away from the antenna at 50 watts.

Thanks, again! Note: I haven’t actually purchased anything yet for this proposed home station. I’m trying to map out the entire system from antenna to power supply to make sure I don’t have issues and I’m complete when I order all the stuff. Don’t want to make such a large investment in $ and time if it’s not going to work.

Since you didn't buy anything yet, then it is not too late to make a recommendation / suggestion.

Don't waist money on an IC-9700 starting out or ever unless you want to get into very specific niches of ham radio. It is a $1400 radio and unless you get into satellite comm with a big bucks tracking antenna and Earth- Moon Earth and some big bucks amplifiers for that the IC-9700 is a big waste of money IMO . You can spend a few hundred and get the same capability that you will use to hit repeaters with or even put a mobile and antenna in your vehicle for local comm also and maybe DMR HT with a hotspot for talking on the DMT net..

Save your money for HF. You can outfit most of a nice HF station with that $1400. Spend a few hundred on VHF / UHF you may use it much less than you think you will depending on the repeaters and traffic in your area.

Of course if the $1400 is chump change then spend it,  everybody likes having fancy stuff, but there are so many other things to spend money on in this hobby, a $1400 Triband  VHF / UHF / 1.2 G radio is a waste of money IMO especially if all you are going to do is hit repeaters with the VHF and UHF.

Personally I would get an HT and a mobile dual band radio and power supply ( 30A big enough for the HF radio also ) , and then put together an HF station. In many areas VHF / UHF is dead anyway.  Get HF. Then if someday you want to spend $10,000 + on a satellite and EME system the radio for that ( $1400, IC-9700 ) will be the least of your expenses for that setup.

I'd agree with not getting a 9700 unless you need it. I'm going to buy one sometime but I like weak signal ssb, vhf contests, satellites, and I want to try some microwave eme.

I'd get a TM-V71A and a signalink for packet/winlink, which is all you need unless you want to do the above things, none of which really work well with an attic jpole. The V71A can work satellites fine, just without cat control. You also don't need 100w for FM, 35w is fine IMHO. Power helps for SSB but generally you'd use an amp that doesn't take that much to drive and a 15ft long antenna.

Edited to add: I think most techs are disappointed when they find out how few people there are to talk to on vhf and uhf. Hopefully there are active repeaters close by. I think it is much harder to strike up a conversation with someone you don't know on a repeater than it is on HF.

Guys use repeaters to talk to their buddies, until you cross that threshold it's hard get contacts. I throw out a call everyday while commuting, I don't remember the last time someone came back that I don't know in real life. I'll answer calls, but they aren't common.

HF is crawling with guys looking to make a contact so it's much easier and why everyone says don't spend money on VHF, get your general and get on HF.

As I may have mentioned earlier, I have a Yeasu handheld and in the last 3 weeks, I find I can listen to local repeaters...but they usually can't hear me. I figured getting a 100w will boost my signal and allow them to hear me so I can join local weekly nets.  I hadnt even considered a mobile rig because i have no interest in installing it in my truck and I thought that was the point of a mobile rig. The repeater closest to me is a ghost town. I actually had my first ever QSO this weekend on simplex while I was walking the dog. I'm kicking myself because I couldn't recall the guy's CS after the call and he told me to shoot him an email. Oh well.

I assumed there are more people willing to talk and it was easier on local VHF/UHF than HF, but maybe that's just due to my limited experience of hearing only those bands. Sounds like this isn't true and maybe I should start with HF instead.  Attic 40/20m dipole + tuner + Icom 7300 + power supply. Does that change the grounding situation though? Will I screwed without a way to ground to earth?

Note: I'm only interested in getting into ham radio to make contacts with voice. At this point, I have zero interest in anything digital or CW. I watched a YouTube on RTTY last weekend and it looked like a pain in the ass to make a clear deciferable contact. Ha.

Dupe.

there is very little difference between 50 watts and 100 watts. It is only 3 db increase. It is only double. Double sounds like a lot, but let me try to explain why it isn't.

Going from a 5 watt HT to a 50 watt radio is a factor of 10 and is more than a 9 db increase.
In this case an external antenna and the height of that antenna is probably going to be a much bigger difference, than power. VHF / UHF is mostly line of sight ( LOS )

Amateur radio, has a focus on emergency comms. As a result you will find that the vast majority of radios need 13.8 volts which is the standard DC voltage of a vehicle and are all designed to be external DC power supply or battery powered for that emergency comm reason. Even the IC-9700 does not plug into the wall and needs a 13.8 DC power supply.  The term  mobile radio is used mostly to describe size. Everybody I know that is a ham uses a 'mobile' VHF / UHF radio in their home station ( shack ). I have 2 in my shack and 1 in my truck. They are a standard 50 watts or so output.

the power over distance from the antenna decreases proportionally to range by the radius squared. So if I want to double the distance a signal will go based purely on power, I need to increase the power by a factor of 4 which is 6 db, every 3db is double or half depending on which way you go.

let's look at where we are with a typical HT radio. Your typical rubber duck HT antenna has a nominal gain of about -5db. So your typical 5 watt HT typically radiates about 1 watt of power from the antenna. ( -3db would be 2.5 watts. -6db would be 1.25 watts. It is probable closer to 1.5 watts but 1 is easier on the numbers and most HT produce a little less than the rated power anyway especially if they are chinese.

Your typical external antenna can have a db. gain of about 6 db or more, assuming not a long run of cable, maybe you lose a db. So for rough numbers, just hooking up your HT to an external 6 db gain antenna with a short amount of cable you will send that 5 watts into a 6 db gain antenna and have an effective radiation toward the repeater of 20 watts, which is 6 db above 5 watts ( minus the small lose in the short cable ).  ( every 3 db increase is double the effective power )

Now add a 50 watt mobile radio instead of the 5 watt HT. 50 watts into a 6db gain antenna will yield approximately  a 6db gain over 50 watts or about 200 watts in the direction of the repeater. Will a 100 watt radio double that? sure. Will it make a big difference? no. It will get you maybe a 50% increase in range. The biggest difference is going to a much better antenna and increasing the power by 10. Going from a 5 watt HT with the rubby duck antenna with ERP ( effective radiating power ) at 1 watt to a 50 watt mobile radio with a 6 db gain antenna yields about 200 watts ERP, a 200 times increase. or about a 21 db gain. Making it a 100 watt radio would double the power again and yield about 24 db gain. As you can see the biggest bang for the buck is the 6 db gain external antenna and a 50 watt radio.

Unless someone is made of money, IMO, ham radio is all about increasing capability at minimum cost, getting the best bang for the buck.

Now take HF digital. I never cared for RTTY. But I love digital modes. FT8, JS8, and the others like Olivia that the arf digi net uses. Having the ability to use digital modes that use computer processing to get the message from below the noise floor is worth it's weight in gold when you can't get there via voice ( phone ) mode.  0 db is the noise floor. For voice comm you need the signal to be above the nose floor, call it 1 bd or better. FT8 will decode signals at -24db below the noise floor. When conditions are not the best ( as in like right now / bottom of the solar cycle ) being able to communicate at -24 db below the noise floor opens up the world. Look at the numbers I spelled out for VHF above. Going from 1 watt ERP to 200 watt EFR power was 23 db. Using FT8 / JS8 at -24db compared to +1 db is about the same level of increase in signal capability. That is why people like digital HF modes, especially when propagation isn't great.

To give a real world example on use, my son was living 120 miles away. we could barely make out our voices at 100 watts on 80 meters. But using Olivia digital modes, we could communicate at 1/2 watt. that is the power of digital modes.

Anyway, I hope I helped with all this. Most of ham radio IMO, is understanding what is going on because it isn't very intuitive and often involves concepts that aren't explained very well.

So much great information so thank you! So based on the info provided, here are the proposed systems (I think):

1) HF: 30 amp power supply + icom 7300 + antenna switch? + antenna tuner + ~50 ft of LMR-400 coax + hanging attic 40m and 20m dipole antenna.  

I know there is coax between the switch/tuner/radio but didn’t list it. I’ll be cutting the coax and crimping PL-259 connectors. (I don’t think anything needs to be grounded...until I determine I have RFI, right?  Also to fix RFI, I can first put ferrites/toroids on household appliances that cause interference.) I’m praying that transmitting doesn’t cause electrical issues in the house like lights, surround sound, and appliances. My only potential option on moving the antenna out of the house would be to somehow route the coax out to the existing sat dish, take the dish off, and mount a vertical antenna instead of the attic dipole. I like having the antenna in the attic and out of the weather though.

Later:
2) VHF/UHF: Same power supply as HF system + mobile radio (brand/model TBD) + antenna switch  + ~50ft LMR-400 coax + attic Arrow 2m/70cm j-pole antenna

If anything in the systems above are not advised, please let me know. What has me worried is that this new ham drops $2k on an HF system and then can’t cure noise and grounding issues since everything will be limited to my finished attic space (station) and antennas in the attic (35 feet away).

I might look at digital later so I’d need to buy a cheap laptop and node for the HF system. My confusion over digital is that if I wanted to send a digital message, why couldn’t I just send a text or email? Yeah, I know a text or email reaches an address you have to know, rather then a random message.)

Thanks again for the feedback!

Sounds good, but I'll add that if you only have one antenna for each radio, you don't need the antenna switches.

That's an excellent explanation, thanks.

That's a bingo!

Ok, I thought if the antenna was for two different bands (in this case 40m/20m and 2m/70cm) I needed a switch. I’ll delete that from the systems. Thanks!

You're conflating the method with the medium.

The only difference between digital and SSB is - for digital - you're letting the computer "speak" into the microphone for outgoing and "listen" to the speaker for incoming.

That's it.



-

Not tryna convince you here.  Mainly posting so that other people considering / new to HF and reading this thread won't make the same mistake.

Just some comments:

Just be aware to fit a full size 40m dipole in your attic you are going to need roughly 66 feet. You can zigzag the wire some or drop the ends down if you need to get it in a shorter space. A 20m dipole is half that. For 100 watts you don't need LMR400. You could do RG8x with little loss for 20m and 40m especially if the cable length is the short 35 feet that you are planing on. It would be thinner to run and less expensive.

For 35 feet of run, you may not need LMR400 for VHF / UHF either, but the loss savings will be better especially for UHF. take a look at the loss charts and see what is right for you. Obviously it is personal choice.

The IC-7300 comes with a built in auto-tuner that will tune 3:1 SWR from a 40 and 20m fan dipole you should also be able to get 15m and also 10 meters. So unless you want to tune lawn chairs you probably don't need a separate tuner right now.

For HF digital you just need any computer, if you have a laptop you can just use that went you want to do digital.

RFI. That is a big subject. There is RFI causing noise on your HF  radio from things in the house and there is RFI when you transmit making things in the house come alive, or get killed. The closer the antenna is to your house, the more you may have of each. The further away the antenna gets the less you have of each unless RF is coming into your shack from the outside of the coax called common mode which you can probably fix by fixing your antenna. There should be no common mode produced by a resonant dipole with a balun.

The antenna being too close to stuff in the house is a function of distance and power. When I run 80 meters sometimes the smoke detectors in the house chirp. The only way to solve that, that I have found it to reduce power or live with it. An air cleaner in our bedroom cycles on and off, so I unplug that.  My high efficiency gas furnace puts out lots of RF noise. I can't figure out what to choke, so I just turn the heat down to turn the furnace off. So you may have things like this that you may find a way to work around or just have to live with, but grounding generally doesn't solve these things. I have a home automation system with ZWave and WEMO. I have 1 of the WEMOs that makes an RF racket, it now resides in a draw someplace.  In order to find all the noise makers, I had to de-power the entire house run the radio from a battery and turn on one breaker at a time, then find the offending electrical thing. I have a list of stuff to turn off when I want to play radio. It's a pain, but when short on space ( most of my wires go over my house ) you have to deal with this stuff. If the antennas were 200 feet away or on the back 40, it would be less of an issue. Sometimes neighbors will have noise machines like a plasma TV, solar charger, battery chargers etc that  if the neighbors are close enough they will impact your radio and there isn't much you can do about it. It depends on how close they are to your antennas. Sometimes the RFI comes from an arcing transformer on a telephone pole a mile away and you have to get the power company involved.

My point is that none of this stuff is predictable except there will be things that drive you nuts sometimes and you just have to deal with them as best you can. In my house radio is a priority, so I have a 50 foot mast in my back yard and wires over the top of my house. I drilled holes to get cable and wires into my house from the antennas. People manage to play radio by working around their restrictions, HOA, wife, landscaped yard etc. I hid my antennas the best I could to hide them from the HOA, my wife is not picky about anything but food, and nature landscapes my yard and when I say yard I mean just that, the weeds and the leaves, I don't really have much grass. I have a garden in the middle of my back yard of my 1/2 acre lot because that is where the sun is right next to my 50 foot foldover mast that I don't foldover very often because I have dropped it on my house 3 times trying to lower it in a controlled manner oops.

I am just rambling, but my point is that this is an adventure, you will run into problems, you will fix some and pull your hair out on others. It is all part of the game. You can't really plan it all out in advance IMO. You have fun within your limitations set by laws, HOA, wives, neighbors, lot size, obstructions, terrain, money or lack thereof etc.  Just remember nothing is perfect, everything is a compromise, but all of it is fun.

Go over to KE5EE on QRZ.com and look at his $5 million ( not an exaggeration ) antenna farm and then catch him on HF talking DX about the limitations of his 160 meter full 1/4 wave vertical 4 element phased array antenna system or his 14 element 10 meter monoband yagi at 50 feet. Dude sounds like a nice guy and I think he is. He is old school polite to everybody and sounds humble, but I use that as an example that no matter how much land you have, no matter what radios you buy and no matter how much money you spend, there will be compromises to be made. It is all relative and fun.

Because HF Digital doesn't rely on cell service or email access (on both ends).  Doing HF digital is just an extra layer of redundancy.

If you were anywhere near NYC or Boston during 9/11 then you'd know that cell service was basically non-existent.  

Half of my family's hams are boomers who can't figure out email, but oddly enough they can figure out FLDigi and WJST-X.

A lot of "figuring stuff out" has to do with wanting to do it.

At my age, it saves a lot of hassles.

Guys, thank you so much for the feedback.  I should get news this Friday on my annual bonus so I’m planning to make the large purchase from HRO for the whole HF system. Worst case scenario, I could buy all this stuff, and the RFI is too much and I have to re-sell the equipment at a loss. It will be an adventure and I won’t give up easy. The idea of talking to other hams at distance sound like a blast.

I really appreciate all the help you folks have given me.  I will revisit this thread with an update on how things work out. Thank you!

There are plenty of ways around RF issues, plenty of people here will guide you through it. Simple sometimes as reducing power, changing feed line lengths, and possible some coils or low/ high pass filters - many are cheap too. You may have an issue in your own house due to the internal antenna, but simple ways around that as well.

Glad to see you are jumping into HF - great way to start. You can find pretty cheap VHF/ UHF stuff in ebay (mobile). Thats what I and many ise as a base station.

I'd still put a stealthy wire antenna from the eave to something in your yard, I really don't think any one would notice. And if they did try the attic antenna.

Or mount it all on board and head outside...

Attached File

How do you get the coax to the antenna if you don't want to drill a hole in your house?

Window feedthrough panel
Download the product manual to see how to install it.

If one or two connectors is all you want, get coax bulkhead connectors and mount in a piece of wood as shon in the above manual. They make them up to about 10" in length.

I looked at those but per pics, window on front of house and antenna would be on back.

I spent a while opening a window and running cable out when I wanted to play radio, but that got old in the winter.  In the end, I drilled a whole in my house.

It goes through the base level of wood that's just above the cinder block walls of the basement and below the first floor boards.  Drilled with a hole saw and then I epoxied in a PVC pipe that fit snug in the hole.  The PVC comes outside and into a waterproof enclosure box mounted to the exterior where the coax hooks up to the grounding point and then comes inside to the basement via the PVC pipe.  My shack is in the basement, but if you wanted from there you could snake the coax through a wall or just pop it up through the floor in a corner somewhere upstairs.

Aren't there remote heads you can use on a radio, so you can put the radio @ the base of the antenna rather than losing signal in the coax?

I would rather have the run of coax than put my radio outside.

Yeah, don't be afraid to drill a hole in a wall. It'll never be a deal breaker when it comes time to sell...

That said, I drilled a bunch of holes through the ~mortar~ between the brick into my shack. Right through the drywall. When the time comes, it'll be easy to mud up the drywall, and should be just as easy to pucky up some mortar into the outside holes.

The price we pay to play radio.

Just do it.

It's exactly the opposite, at least around here. I could almost always find someone to talk to on HF SSB if I wanted, maybe not any particular person on a particular freq, but someone, 24/7. I have five VHF repeaters I can get from my house but last week, when I wasn't sure my radio was working, it took my about three days of trying off and on to get someone on one of those five repeaters.

For me it isn’t if to drill but deciding where to drill.  

i could go up and over the concrete basement wall in my finished office, through the rim-joist and deck ledger but then I worry about water in that seam coming down the exterior house wall.  No overhead roof on that side of the deck.  If it had overhead cover I would do that in heartbeat.  

Drilling through the finished interior wall and concrete wall would leave me closer to the outside grounding.   I think that might be better.  

I made a feed thru that goes under the window for my shack in daylight basement. I got a piece of tongue and groove, ripped it half and mated the halves back up and drilled holes thru the tongue and groove. Put some weather stripping on top and bottom and clamp the board over the cables and close the window on it. A prop is placed to keep the top window sash from lowering and the bottom sash from being able to be lifted. A little more foam tucked behind the window sealed it from drafts.

Our house was built in the 80's and all the tv coax was run outside under the vinyl siding and then thru holes in the wall, in the master bedroom I pulled the coax out and replaced it with rg8x for a second mobile fm radio.

I've seen coax run out the gable vents, ridge vents, soffit vents, holes added to vent pipes and coax brought up for ventennas. A brick house makes it harder. But somehow coax makes it to the satellite dish, you can follow its path. You're starting in the attic which helps, getting coax from my shack to the attic would be really hard so it's run outside and up the corner trim and then along my roof. Getting lmr400 out is hard, rg8x is 1/4" diameter.

Again if I were you I'd try an end fed, I'd run 8x out a window plate above your window, along the shutter and horizontally toward the backyard over to the soffit, tuck it under the vinyl trim and down to the eave where I'd mount a unun and run a thin wire out to something in the backyard. Losses at HF using 8x aren't high, if it takes 100' to run around the eaves to get to a good place for the antenna so be it. A longer coax run helps an endfed as the shield radiates unless you add a counterpoise wire.

A dual band jpole in the attic is probably fine for vhf/uhf. I know a guy who has a buddipole setup on a tripod for vhf in his house that he uses as a second station (for a packet digipeater.)

Former A/V tech here.
FCC trumps HOA.
If you do not have a radiant barrier, the CORRECT antenna properly aimed, and professionally installed in your attic has a 50/50 chance of working. Rotors typically are n/a in an attic. Winegard is the go to brand in my opinion.
Good luck.

Can you explain please.

Are you talking about a sat antenna for TV?

Using an antenna in the attic will be dependent on whether your roof has a reflective reflective barrier as some have said. In my old home (in the beginning) I was very successful using a small AR-270 for UHF/VHF and Yeasu ATAS-120 for HF in the attic but eventually expanded to the outdoors later.

I just moved into a new built home and mine does have the barriers, I also have an HOA. What some say is "somewhat" true about the FCC trumping HOA, but once you sign the papers, you are pretty much bound by their rules to a certain extent unless you want to fight it. There is no way I am going to be able to put an antenna in my attic, hell I can barely use a cell phone inside the house and forget an HT, not going to happen. Yes, I am in a very rural area so everything has a diminishing effect. I also own a 9700, 7610 and an ACOM 700S so must install outside anyway. I am already using my hide in plain sight plan with for UHF/VHF Weather station and COMET-NCG GP-1 is mounted on a single pole (looks normal - Not like what people expect to see) and since my HOA allows Flagpoles, I am going with a flagpole antenna from Greyline and remote tuner. The short UHF/VHF verticals work well and will fit easily in most attics. I hit most all repeaters within a 60 mile radius except the ones blocked by the mountains lol.

First, everyone is correct about the 9700 being somewhat an overkill if you just want to hit local repeaters and a mobile rig and 50 watts will do fine .... but. The 9700 is great for that purpose with many enhancements that you will not get with a mobile. The bandscope is very nice for monitoring and watching the band. You can see a lot with this radio and it is a simple pleasure to operate compared to a mobile rig plus that 100 watts will give you an edge for getting to distant repeaters or using simplex.

My prior rig to this was a ICOM 9100 so a little spoiled to begin with (reminds me I need to get that one sold lol). This is all about how much you want to spend for the bells and whistles. You will be satisfied with either and can upgrade later to a 9700. Make HF your priority for now but do get a mobile with a detachable head. That allows you to have much more desk space and a neater station. Yeasu FTM-400DXR (in my truck) or ICOM ID5100A would be a great setup if you are looking for a recommendation. You can have D-Star or Fusion depending on choice. The both have touch screens as well. The Yeasu comes with mounts, the ICOM has limited accessories.

Take a look:YAESU FTM-400XDR  /  ICOM ID-5100A DELUXE

This is really up to you and what you want to achieve. Think out of the box for a solution. You will do just fine with your current plan and it should work. I just wanted to throw out a couple more options for ya.

73

Edit for hitting submit too soon ....

Oh and if you purchase a 9700 you will need a duplexer to connect the antenna. HF + 140-150 MHz / 400 - 460 MHz Duplexer

No.  I ASSUMED this was a thread about getting TV reception, and doing battle with an HOA that think they rule the world.

Every time I do not read a thread before responding... this happens.

My Bad.

Ha. I hear you. I’m going to go the attic route, do everything I can to make that work for HF and then VHF/UHF, and then if that doesn’t work and there are no other alternatives, will figure out next steps.

A 40 Meter dipole will function on 15 meters as a 3/2 wave dipole. Up toward the 'phone end of the band the match gets a little high, but can be brought down by adding capacity hats, like this:
http://new-ham-radio.blogspot.com/2010/07/is-it-true-that-you-can-use-40-meter.html

When the solar flux rises, 15 Meters livens up and can outperform 20 as a DX band.

Split bolt connectors will make adjusting antennas much easier since you don't have to wrap and unwrap the wire as you change the length. There's a lot of interaction between the elements of a fan dipole so there will be some trial and error involved in getting it right. They're also handy for adjucting the position of the capacity hats in the above link.
Your local electical supply house should carry them in many different sizes.

Fan dipoles 1
Fan dipoles 2
Fan dipole discussion.

I'd change that to a loop antenna and invest in a good tuner.
73,
Rob

Can you hid it inside a tree?

When I made my fan dipole for 80 / 40 / 20 I made a PVC distribution thing that brought the wires out of the balun and vertically down a PVC contraption. 80 meters came off the top, 40 meters came off a 12 inc drop and 20 m came off another 12 inch drop. Since it is up at 50 feet, the 80m wire runs east west because the pattern is all up anyway. Then I took the axis I wanted for the pattern which is the great circle E route to Europe and oriented the 40 meter wire south 15 degrees and the 20 meter wire north 15 degrees to decouple them as much as possible. While the longer the wire the more inverted Vee angle there is, 20 has the least angle ans is the most directional due to height and less vertical angle down. They are still coupled but I think much less than if they were all 1 foot apart.

Update:

I purchased a 40/20/10 dipole on eBay and strung it up in the attic. See pics. I have not purchased any other components yet. I used electric fence insulators to guide the wires along the attic beams and tied off the ends with dog bone insulators using polypropylene rope. I ran out of attic length on both sides for the 40m so I ran the lines around the side of the house , and slightly down the opposite side.  Have some questions:

1) I should have double checked that the seller cut the lines correctly but did not. Oh well.  The instructions stated that the he leaves the lengths a little long for tuning. When I cut his small end loops and attached the insulators I’m sure I may have been slightly off on each side. (Not ft off but could be 1-2  inches max.) Is that bad? When I tied the wires to the insulators I just wrapped them back around themselves in case I needed to lengthen it later.

2) None of the wires touch each other but they are not exactly parallel across the attic. One side runs a little higher than the other. I had to do some zig zagging. Is this ok?

3) The 40m and 20m wires on one side come within 3-4 inches of a copper gas line to the furnace. Is that bad?

4) How much trouble am I going to have tuning this? Can I just buy an antenna tuner, put it in line between the antenna and transceiver, and eliminate the need to keep going up in the attic and cutting/lengthening? This seems like a good idea.

@Caniac_Nation
That actually looks pretty good. As far as the gas pipe, do the wires and pipe cross at right angles? That's best as it keeps the interaction low. 3-4 inches is probably ok spacing, where along the antenna does the wire pass the pipe? The antenna will have high voltage at the ends, and lower voltage closer to the middle. From what I saw the wire and ends are fairly well isolated from the wood. Any estimate on the length of coax you will need to run?
73,
Rob

ETA: What is the circumference of the attic if you went down near the floor above the insulation? There is room for a horizontal loop there, The length of the wire determines the lowest frequency of operation.

See pic below. You can see that the 20m line ends just to the left on the pic and close to the gas line, while the 40m is roughly 1/2? it’s length when it crosses the gas line. The wires are about 6inches away realistically.

I didn’t run the wires close to the floor. I kept them tied along the walls of the attic about waist high/ shoulder high. If you were standing above my house and looking down on the roof,  the 40m would look like an “L” on both sides. (Or a big “C”)

Coax will probably be about 50 ft to my 2nd floor ham shack just below the attic.

That looks like a good installation. Reduce the power on your rig to about 20 or so watts and see how each band matches.

Incidentally, the 7300 has a built in antenna scope that will plot the SWR within the ham bands. Check your extended manual to see how to use it.
If the SWR is lower at the low end of the band than it is at the high end, the antenna is too long. Conversely, if it's lower at the high end than at the low end, the antenna is too short.
You want the minimum point positioned where you'll be doing most of your operating.

Yes, I remembered that about the 7300 after I asked the question. I’ll be getting my 7300 soon. That being said, I thought I heard the max SWR measured was 3:1... so if it maxs out from the start and I begin to adjust length, how would I know if I’m improving things? I thought about just buying a SWR meter to measure SWR before buying a tuner...but heck, they are more expensive than I thought! I suppose I’ll cross each bridge when I get to it instead of trying to anticipate problems.

The SWR feature measures at the antenna connector, before the internal tuner. The real question is if it can match the antenna without decreasing power. Mine will match well about 3:1 once it's above 60 Meters.
If it's maxing out all the way across the graph, you'll need an antenna analyzer to determine where the minimums are.

There are some analyzer kits on the market that are very reasonably priced, IIRC around $50. It'll be a valuable addition to your tool collection if you're going to be playing with antennas very much, which it sounds like you are.

For what it's worth, I noticed that there are places selling coax cable with white insulation rather than black. I would think that running white coax along the white trim of a house or gutter would be pretty stealthy. Note that I am just getting started and don't know much yet, so take this as a point of info, not a recommendation based on experience, since I have none.