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Posted: 2/13/2021 2:14:40 PM EDT
So as a new General licensee, I’ve been trying to do research to see if it’s even worth setting up a base station. I have a FT3DR and I’m finding I can hear some local repeaters/simplex but no one can seem to hear me at 5w. The nearest repeater is like 6 miles away.
Anybody out there work within the confines of an HOA? Ideally, I’d like to be able to do something for distance (20m?) and local (VHF/UHF). Options as I see it: 1) I have an old satellite dish attached to the back corner of my roof. I could mount something like a J-pole or other vertical, using the current dish mount so I don’t have to screw into my roof again. Maybe something other than a vertical. Since it’s on the back side of my house, it would only be visible from a culdesac and even then, it would be partially hidden by the roof. This would be the highest point on my property that I could mount an antenna. I would have to run coax about 50? feet from the station on the second floor in the front of my house to the antenna on the back side. 2) Some sort of attic antenna. Shorter coax but would I get HF? 3) I could set a portable vertical antenna in my yard and run the coax to the station, but this might add another 50 feet of coax for a total of 100? to the station. Also, I have a dog, so I wouldn’t put it past him to piss on it once in a blue moon. Which option would you guys choose? Pics of the proposed placement and current sat dish location below. Station would be near the front window with the arrow and the dish would be at the circle in the back. Edit 2/7/21: Dipole installed in attic. Pics and questions on Page 3.  
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Posted: 2/13/2021 2:33:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Are you talking about mounting a vertical for HF or VHF? There is a big difference in physical size. Even VHF antennas are somewhat on the high side but HF antennas are TALL if they are resonant or even trapped verticals. Mine is 26' tall and it isn't a full quarter wave on 80 meters. Plus they really need a series of grounding radials beneath them to work well. Take a look at These Ideas on the DX Engineering web site. They are designed for "Stealth and Portability", and they aren't cheap, so they won't be as efficient as a quarter wave antenna but if you have to deal with an HOA you are forced into a compromise situation.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 2:43:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Post a satellite image of your house.
What are the actual HOA restrictions? |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:10:10 PM EDT
[#3]
I had a dipole in my attic, it's far better at picking up stray RF in the house then an antenna. YMMV
I never handled a copper J pole antenna, I do have several aluminum dual band j poles, assuming its mounted well im sure it would be ok. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:12:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Take a look at using your gutters for an HF antenna. It's not idea and you'll definitely need a tuner, but there are guys who've done it successfully when they're under HOA restrictions.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:20:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Do you have any attic space that could hold a 20m dipole? I run attic antennas due to my HOA. I have 20 and 10 meter dipoles up there, along with a 6m omni antenna. I also have a random wire up there, but it is not too efficient. I do pick up some noise from things like router, etc., and the RF from my transmitter causes some issues in the house, too. Not a great situation, but it's all I can do.
Also see this thread about my latest antenna adventure. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Outdoors/HF-mobile-dudes--get-in-here-/22-699379/ |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:24:58 PM EDT
[#6]
VHF/UHF
6 miles shouldn't be that hard to hit with a 5w HT depending on what's between you and the repeater terrain wise. Are you sure your settings are correct to access the repeater? When you transmit your freq should shift to the offset needed and you need to set the tone to access the repeater. Maybe drive closer and try again? You should get an indication the repeater "turns on" when you key up. FYI don't just key and release AKA Kerchunk the repeaters. Just say your call sign and testing or something. If your getting in someone will usually say they can hear you. A higher antenna will help a lot. In the attic should be better than the stock HT. On top of the roof even better. HF is a whole different animal and will need different antennas depending on what bands you want to use. They tend to be big or long and work best 50+ feet in the air. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:25:45 PM EDT
[#7]
https://greylineperformance.com
flagpole antenna assuming flag poles are still gtg. eta, I have no idea it it works or is a huge compromise. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:53:55 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm in an HOA. I use an EFHW in an inverted V. The wire is virtually unnoticeable and the pole I use is from Jackite. They're meant for wind socks. I'm gonna add a windsock eventually. But so far no one has said a word. I also live at the back and we aren't full of Karen's anyway. Our HOA basically just stops people from having trash and broken down cars in their yards. Otherwise we don't give a shit.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 3:54:58 PM EDT
[#9]
There is a Stealth Antenna Guide put together by hams living in The Villages in FL.
It has all kinds of stealth HF antenna ideas. https://www.hamfesters.org/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Stealth-Antenna-Guide.pdf It can be found at the link. You may find something of use in it. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 7:28:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Take a look at using your gutters for an HF antenna. It's not idea and you'll definitely need a tuner, but there are guys who've done it successfully when they're under HOA restrictions. I forgot about that option! Will research. Thanks! |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 7:32:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have any attic space that could hold a 20m dipole? I run attic antennas due to my HOA. I have 20 and 10 meter dipoles up there, along with a 6m omni antenna. I also have a random wire up there, but it is not too efficient. I do pick up some noise from things like router, etc., and the RF from my transmitter causes some issues in the house, too. Not a great situation, but it's all I can do. Also see this thread about my latest antenna adventure. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Outdoors/HF-mobile-dudes--get-in-here-/22-699379/ Not sure on the 20m in the attic, need to look at dimensions. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Looking at the pic of the house, have you considered a full wave loop in the attic? You'd want the loop to encompass as much area as possible, I was able to put in a full wave loop for 40M (1005/ 7.00 mHz. = 143.57 feet.) With a wide range tuner it would tune up through 6 meters. As the frequency went higher the lobes would begin to flatten out towards the horizon. Another idea is a OCFD which could be bent around corners as long as it didn't come back on itself too closely.
73, Rob |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:06:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm in an HOA. I use an EFHW in an inverted V. The wire is virtually unnoticeable and the pole I use is from Jackite. They're meant for wind socks. I'm gonna add a windsock eventually. But so far no one has said a word. I also live at the back and we aren't full of Karen's anyway. Our HOA basically just stops people from having trash and broken down cars in their yards. Otherwise we don't give a shit. Our HOA sends a letter if you don’t cut your shrubs to their liking. Lol. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:22:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our HOA sends a letter if you don't cut your shrubs to their liking. Lol. My dad lives in a no-antenna whatsoever, he has an inverted L from the corner of a gazebo up to his chimney, radials cover about 270deg around the gazebo. If you have trees an endfed would work well enough and is really stealthy. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:23:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: VHF/UHF 6 miles shouldn't be that hard to hit with a 5w HT depending on what's between you and the repeater terrain wise. Are you sure your settings are correct to access the repeater? When you transmit your freq should shift to the offset needed and you need to set the tone to access the repeater. Maybe drive closer and try again? You should get an indication the repeater "turns on" when you key up. FYI don't just key and release AKA Kerchunk the repeaters. Just say your call sign and testing or something. If your getting in someone will usually say they can hear you. A higher antenna will help a lot. In the attic should be better than the stock HT. On top of the roof even better. HF is a whole different animal and will need different antennas depending on what bands you want to use. They tend to be big or long and work best 50+ feet in the air. When I try to access my local repeater, I usually either get one of these replies to my CS + “listening”: “Welcome to the Waxhaw repeater” voice message, a tone, something that sounds like Morse code, or nothing. Thanks for the info on the antenna. I will have to look at these options. Appreciate it |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:29:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But do they specifically state no antenna whatsoever? You have a satellite dish so some antennas are ok. A wire antenna would probably be completely unnoticed. My dad lives in a no-antenna whatsoever, he has an inverted L from the corner of a gazebo up to his chimney, radials cover about 270deg around the gazebo. If you have trees an endfed would work well enough and is really stealthy. This link explains why satellite dishes are allowed...http://www.ccfj.net/FCClaw.htm |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:34:33 PM EDT
[#17]
FWIW, I live about 5 miles from my local 2m repeater, in a low area next to a lake. I can hit the repeater with a 5W HT hooked up to a homemade 1/4 wave ground plane antenna on my roof. If you can get something similar up there you should be GTG.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:37:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I try to access my local repeater, I usually either get one of these replies to my CS + “listening”: “Welcome to the Waxhaw repeater” voice message, a tone, something that sounds like Morse code, or nothing. Normal. I have 34 different repeaters programed in a HT here in the DFW area. I can hit most of them. On any given day, there is no one on any of them. On occasion, I'll hear someone talking, and if I search the various clubs in the area, I might find a local net that meets once/week. But 98% of the time, there is nothing but silence (other than hearing the repeater identification). |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:48:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you talking about mounting a vertical for HF or VHF? There is a big difference in physical size. Even VHF antennas are somewhat on the high side but HF antennas are TALL if they are resonant or even trapped verticals. Mine is 26' tall and it isn't a full quarter wave on 80 meters. Plus they really need a series of grounding radials beneath them to work well. Take a look at These Ideas on the DX Engineering web site. They are designed for "Stealth and Portability", and they aren't cheap, so they won't be as efficient as a quarter wave antenna but if you have to deal with an HOA you are forced into a compromise situation. Thanks for the info. I’m really digging this one if it’s true. Mounting in my attic, it would be within about 20 feet from my station and I like not having it exposed to the weather. On the flip side, I would hope that being inside would still allow for decent transmit and reception for something like 20m. https://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/compactenna-model-20m-2m-440-multi-band-antennas |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 8:52:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Normal. I have 34 different repeaters programed in a HT here in the DFW area. I can hit most of them. On any given day, there is no one on any of them. On occasion, I'll hear someone talking, and if I search the various clubs in the area, I might find a local net that meets once/week. But 98% of the time, there is nothing but silence (other than hearing the repeater identification). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When I try to access my local repeater, I usually either get one of these replies to my CS + “listening”: “Welcome to the Waxhaw repeater” voice message, a tone, something that sounds like Morse code, or nothing. Normal. I have 34 different repeaters programed in a HT here in the DFW area. I can hit most of them. On any given day, there is no one on any of them. On occasion, I'll hear someone talking, and if I search the various clubs in the area, I might find a local net that meets once/week. But 98% of the time, there is nothing but silence (other than hearing the repeater identification). I've spent a week trying to get someone on the six repeaters I can get here on my VHF radio. I hadn't used it in a good while and wasn't sure if it, the coax or the antenna was still good. I just got someone about 30 minutes ago. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 9:20:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Normal. I have 34 different repeaters programed in a HT here in the DFW area. I can hit most of them. On any given day, there is no one on any of them. On occasion, I'll hear someone talking, and if I search the various clubs in the area, I might find a local net that meets once/week. But 98% of the time, there is nothing but silence (other than hearing the repeater identification). Thanks. I just got into a repeater that is about 15-20? miles away... but the guys said they heard the beginning of my transmission and CS but too much static. When I started this about a week ago I thought there would be more people talking! Ha |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 9:59:39 PM EDT
[#22]
2m/440 isn't dead but it isn't lively either. If you get on around commute times you might hear more. Dstar is more active here than 2m/440.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 10:24:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure on the 20m in the attic, need to look at dimensions. The dipole doesn't have to be straight. Feed it in the center, run it along the ridge, and drop the ends down along the rafters, so that when viewed from the top it looks like the letter "Z". You can use electric fence insulators from your local farm supply store. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 10:42:27 PM EDT
[#24]
When I lived in an HOA I put up an inverted V on the back wall facing the backyard. No one said anything. A year later I received approval to install a Butternut HF6V on the roof. A couple years later someone complained and the approval was rescinded. I moved soon after to a free neighborhood.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:03:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Ok these suggestions have been great. Thank you! Still researching but I have a question:
My ham shack would be in a finished attic space in my house that we currently use for storage. In the pic at the bottom on the back right you will see a desk area that my daughter previously used for crafts and I would convert this desk area to my shack. So my question is this: If I use a portable antenna like a rotating loop like the guy is using in the first link below or a Compact antenna on a steel plate in the same room (second pic)...are there any safety concerns being that close (10ft?) to the antenna in the same room? Sorry if these are dumb questions but I have no electrical experience. Loop Antenna on rotating base   |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:05:40 PM EDT
[#26]
100 feet of coax is nothing at HF, you're too worried about line loss. Antenna distance away from noise sources will be helpful but looks like you don't have much space to work with.
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:22:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100 feet of coax is nothing at HF, you're too worried about line loss. Antenna distance away from noise sources will be helpful but looks like you don't have much space to work with. Yeah the room is not super large but the ease of hooking up to a “mobile” antenna without having to get on a ladder, mount an antenna, and run coax across the house is very appealing. I think that also means I could pack up the antenna when I go to the beach on vacation and set it up there to connect to a handheld. But that’s appealing as long as I’m not losing anything by having a portable like that. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:25:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Another option is to put a mobile antenna on your car and drop coax down to it.
Back your car out of the garage, pop the antenna onto the mount, connect the coax and you're ready to go. 
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:29:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another option is to put a mobile antenna on your car and drop coax down to it. Back your car out of the garage, pop the antenna onto the mount, connect the coax and you're ready to go. http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/images/dataimages/ameritron/sda100.jpg Yeah, I have a truck and could do something like that but my ham shack would be on the second floor of a house. Seems like a bit of a pain in the ass to do all that when you want to connect/disconnect to a base station. |
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Posted: 2/13/2021 11:44:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our HOA sends a letter if you don't cut your shrubs to their liking. Lol. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:18:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I have a truck and could do something like that but my ham shack would be on the second floor of a house. Seems like a bit of a pain in the ass to do all that when you want to connect/disconnect to a base station. It absolutely is. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:19:29 AM EDT
[#32]
A J pole in the attic would work for 144/220. Or get a hotspot to connect to America Link for National and International coverage.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:26:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info. I’m really digging this one if it’s true. Mounting in my attic, it would be within about 20 feet from my station and I like not having it exposed to the weather. On the flip side, I would hope that being inside would still allow for decent transmit and reception for something like 20m. https://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/compactenna-model-20m-2m-440-multi-band-antennas Anything like that is going to be a compromise antenna but you're in a compromise situation. The fact of life with antennas is that bigger will nearly always be better. One thing you could do is call DX Engineering and ask them. Everyone who works there is a ham so they have a wealth of experience. Tell them you've been looking at some of their antenna choices and are unsure what would work best in your situation. I suspect that as long as your attic isn't framed using metal studs it should work OK. If it's truly an "Attic'" it should just be the roof joists and they would be wood. I've never used an indoor antenna so I really don't know how well they work. Note that I have no affiliation with DX Engineering at all other than being a satisfied customer. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:32:21 AM EDT
[#34]
I thought the FCC trumped Karens? No?
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Posted: 2/14/2021 1:53:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the FCC trumped Karens? No? It does not. It does trump local government ordinances restricting amateur antennas/towers. As for HOA's, they basically said, "Hey, you VOLUNTARILY signed away your property rights, so you're on your own." Which, IMHO, is the correct response. http://www.arrl.org/restrictive-antenna-ordinances |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 2:09:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Which seems opposite the FCCs ruling on satellite dishes.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 2:22:34 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I try to access my local repeater, I usually either get one of these replies to my CS + “listening”: “Welcome to the Waxhaw repeater” voice message, a tone, something that sounds like Morse code, or nothing. Thanks for the info on the antenna. I will have to look at these options. Appreciate it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: VHF/UHF 6 miles shouldn't be that hard to hit with a 5w HT depending on what's between you and the repeater terrain wise. Are you sure your settings are correct to access the repeater? When you transmit your freq should shift to the offset needed and you need to set the tone to access the repeater. Maybe drive closer and try again? You should get an indication the repeater "turns on" when you key up. FYI don't just key and release AKA Kerchunk the repeaters. Just say your call sign and testing or something. If your getting in someone will usually say they can hear you. A higher antenna will help a lot. In the attic should be better than the stock HT. On top of the roof even better. HF is a whole different animal and will need different antennas depending on what bands you want to use. They tend to be big or long and work best 50+ feet in the air. When I try to access my local repeater, I usually either get one of these replies to my CS + “listening”: “Welcome to the Waxhaw repeater” voice message, a tone, something that sounds like Morse code, or nothing. Thanks for the info on the antenna. I will have to look at these options. Appreciate it I'm confused. What are you expecting? |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 2:27:18 AM EDT
[#38]
So it would seem. However, Amateur Radio does not have the lobbying $$$ behind it that the dishes do. If politicians, media, and Wall Street stood to make billions on amateur radio antennas being installed on every home, bet your ass the FCC would pave the way to null and void HOA restrictions on them.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 9:13:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm confused. What are you expecting? I was simply explaining that yes, I have the settings correct and I'm reaching repeaters. That being said, I thought that repeaters were more frequently monitored, since I never seem to get a reply. I got a reply last night when I jumped in a conversation, but they said my transmission was too scratchy and could only get the first two letters of my CS. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 9:26:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Interesting pdf on HF in HOA communities
I found this while researching something tangentially related but it might give you some ideas. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 10:26:16 AM EDT
[#41]
I don't have an HOA, but there is some sort of covenant that was established when the neighborhood was first established. Among other things, it prohibits satellite dishes.
However, due to the time period, I believe it was referring to the SETI size dishes that preceded the mini dishes of today, which nearly every house now has. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 10:48:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Old satellite dishes (the small ones) can get modified to a slot antenna for vhf and uhf.
Efficient 2 meter Disguise Antenna Made From a TV Satellite Dish |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:00:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Old satellite dishes (the small ones) can get modified to a slot antenna for vhf and uhf. Efficient 2 meter Disguise Antenna Made From a TV Satellite Dish |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:57:31 PM EDT
[#44]
I may have missed it but do you have trees? Something like an S9 collapsible vertical would work. I had one for 20 meters, about 18 feet tall. They do have one for 40 at 31 feet. Alpha Antennas sells that one. I used the 20 meter for 20-80 with an Icom tuner, was not bad. Does require radial but lay them on the grass, hold down with landscape staples and grass grows over them, mow right over. In a tree virtually invisible.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 1:12:36 PM EDT
[#45]
https://www.dxengineering.com/search/brand/hustler-antenna/product-line/hustler-6btv-6-band-hf-vertical-antenna-and-dxe-installation-guide-packages?autoview=SKU&sortby=Default&sortorder=Default Look thru this, these antennas require a fair amount of work to tune them, but when installed correctly, work well for DX and don't need an antenna tuner https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-btv-inst-ins_bn.pdf you can cammo it as a flagpole https://www.hamuniverse.com/kx9dk4btvflagpole.html  
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Posted: 2/14/2021 1:54:44 PM EDT
[#46]
For HF, it looks like the edge of the roof over the window the arrow is pointing to may be big enough for an Inverted Vee on 20 Meters. If you could find (or make) a pair of traps tuned to 21 MHz, you could make it into a dual band antenna.
 
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Posted: 2/14/2021 3:07:29 PM EDT
[#47]
When I lived in a HOA I used an inverted V I constructed. Center point held up by a tree. Ran coax right up the trunk then legs down to my wooden fence. Spray painted the copper wire black. You couldn't see it from 15 feet away.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 4:19:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forgot about that option! Will research. Thanks! I’ve done it with success. Is it as ideal as a dipole 50 ft in the air? Naw but it works and makes contacts. I’ve worked Utah, Nevada, bunch in kalifornia, Texas etc with it on 20m and 40m. Gutter needs to be metal, but in case it isn’t, run some wire along the gutter that’s incognito. Need a good antenna tuner. I’m using an ldg at100. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 4:35:26 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Spray painted the copper wire black. You couldn't see it from 15 feet away. Quote HistoryQuoted: Spray painted the copper wire black. You couldn't see it from 15 feet away. You can get wire with thin black polyethelene insulation, the thinner gauges are pretty hard to see. I often suggest aluminum electric fence wire as an inexpensive wire for antennas and ground radials. When new it's shiny silver, but after some time exposed to the elements it changes to a flat medium grey color almost like old A1 anodizing. The old wire is very hard to see when it's up in the air. Maybe there's a market for "aged" wire  Quoted: Old satellite dishes (the small ones) can get modified to a slot antenna for vhf and uhf. Efficient 2 meter Disguise Antenna Made From a TV Satellite Dish If you ever find one of the old "primestar" or other wide/larger size dishes those are great for such conversion. Slot antennas are neat and kinda trippy, everything is backwards to how you think about antenna elements. If a slot is horizontal, it's vertically polarized. Simple 1/2 wave dipole, fed in the center... if it's a slot, it's fed out near the end (like feeding a J pole). I was going to make a slot antenna out of aluminum window screen as an experiment once but didn't ever follow through. If you had a large upstairs window that might be something to experiment with. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 4:38:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Check the Federal laws, HOA can not trump the laws.
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