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Posted: 3/2/2023 12:16:04 PM EDT
[#1]
How big of a house? MI is a cold area so it might eventually pay off IF the house is big enough. In my personal opinion, if you are building less than 2500 sq ft in MI, put the money into over insulating the house (which you should be doing anyway). Thick walls....exterior sheet foam etc. (Exterior foam is especially important if you want a really efficient house...either that or high performance construction like SIPS or ICF).
If you are between 2500 and 3500 sq ft, then run the numbers carefully. It may pay off...but it may not. If you are over 3500 sq ft, it will likely be a good investment. I would still have a backup heat source (I am partial to propane because I like to store my fuel supply-wood is good too but comes with some drawbacks too). I live in a warmer environment than MI....although we do get some cold weather just not for as long. I did the math a number of years ago before we built our house and for my area, I wouldn't even consider geothermal unless I was building at least 4000 sq ft. I might have misunderstood your post but if you are installing geothermal into an existing house, you might be able to drop the sq footage numbers above. My numbers assume a very well insulated house. If you are retrofitting a heating system to an older house with poor insulation, then a geothermal unit may well pay off sooner even with smaller sq footage. |
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Posted: 3/2/2023 12:32:05 PM EDT
[#2]
A friend of mine did it in Oklahoma about 20 years ago. It was from a company he worked for so he got the employee discount. He was disappointed. It did save some money off his monthly bill, but not as much as he had been led to believe. He sold the house long before he would have broken even with his instillation cost.
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Posted: 3/2/2023 1:16:16 PM EDT
[#3]
I have a buddy who has a HVAC company in 5 different cities .... 3rd generation.
Some of the analysis needs to be a comparison between btu cost. Over the years I've had every kind of system there is [air heat pump/electric resistance [25 years ago and it sucked], natural gas, propane and geothermal] and currently have natural gas for my city home [put it in 3 years ago] and geothermal for my farm house built 2 years ago [the old farm house had propane]. When I asked my buddy what did he recommend he responded: My parents have geothermal, my in laws have geothermal and I have geothermal. Additional considerations is comfort [my geo is very comfortable] have sufficient space [running laterals is much less expensive than drilling down], noise [mine is very quiet, no exterior compressor kicking on] and cost [I'm planning on my family owning this property for generations but even if it is only during my life time, that'll be long enough]. I ran the cost per btu and it was about equal between propane [before the petro spike!] and electric. My electric is a rural cooperative and the most expensive is 9.7 cents per kwh. My farm is in north east MO, growing zone 5. My house is 3,000 ft^2 of conditioned space. I'd do it again in a heart-beat |
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Posted: 3/2/2023 2:37:09 PM EDT
[#4]
So home will probably be 2500 all in with either a basement or two story. Im hoping to do horizontal piping, some of which I could do myself if the companies will allow. This is my tentative last home ill own so I'll be in there for a while for payback reasons. I also like the idea of using it for water heaters and possibly heated floors in the bathroom.
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Posted: 3/2/2023 4:00:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So home will probably be 2500 all in with either a basement or two story. Im hoping to do horizontal piping, some of which I could do myself if the companies will allow. This is my tentative last home ill own so I'll be in there for a while for payback reasons. I also like the idea of using it for water heaters and possibly heated floors in the bathroom. I didn't do any in floor heating but it does prewarm the water for the hot water heater. I designed the house to host up to 12 so I have 2 50 gal water heaters |
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Posted: 3/2/2023 9:33:33 PM EDT
[#6]
I used to work for one of the larger Geothermal dealers in Ga. It takes a lot to recoup the cost. Also parts are expensive and some are odd. We installed mainly Waterfurnace and Bosch units. Both as they age tend to have limited supported after about 20-25 years. We found some boards were tough to find and bought extras to support customers we had. Don't buy anything from Mr. Cool. Good install is very important. I would go conventional and a wood stove if it was me.
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Posted: 3/2/2023 10:02:40 PM EDT
[#7]
My buddy had a complete geo system installed 5 years ago.
It has needed to be serviced at least once a year, its been down 3 times, waiting on parts was a few days to 3 weeks. There seems to be a shortage of trained techs and parts for his system. I wish I could tell you the maker but I can't recall. Good luck |
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Posted: 3/2/2023 10:12:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So home will probably be 2500 all in with either a basement or two story. Im hoping to do horizontal piping, some of which I could do myself if the companies will allow. This is my tentative last home ill own so I'll be in there for a while for payback reasons. I also like the idea of using it for water heaters and possibly heated floors in the bathroom. I wouldn't if I was in your shoes. I would substantially upgrade the insulation. The traditional 2x6 construction typical in cold climates simply isn't good enough any more given the rapidly increasing energy costs. Insulation will pay off for the life of the home. Assuming traditional framing, you need lots of exterior foam sheeting. In warmer climates it's not as critical but if you do use exterior foam in a cold climate, you have to make sure you use enough to keep the dew point in the foam. If you don't use enough foam compared to the thickness of the in framing insulation, you'll get condensation in the wall cavities...which is bad. If you have traditional 2x6 framing, for your climate you probably need to have a minimum of 2 inches of exterior foam. A really neat product is the ZIP System insulated sheathing. You get upgraded insulation along with good air sealing. I'd probably go with the 2.5 inch version. It's not cheap but it's excellent. I'd put the money you would spend on the geothermal system and put it into insulation instead. People who build houses are interested in what the house looks like inside and out and don't care about the things you can't see....like insulation. But, insulation will pay off for the life of the home. We built an over insulated house (with exterior foam). I calculated the payback time of the upgraded insulation to be 3 years. We are 6 years into the house now and our utility bill show how smart it was to upgrade insulation. We pay 1/3 of what people with the same size houses in the area pay for utilities. https://www.huberwood.com/zip-system/insulated-r-sheathing |
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Posted: 3/3/2023 6:13:33 AM EDT
[#9]
I looked into geothermal for our new house build. Couldn't find any installers around here that would answer their phone or return calls. I figured that was a bad sign for service, so I dropped the idea.
Long after, I was talking about it with an owner of the company who drilled our well. He had geothermal at his house, said he figured he might as well given they had the equipment to drill his own vertical wells for it. He told me don't bother, it's not worth it. I can't remember what all arguments he had against it were though at this point. |
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Posted: 3/3/2023 7:32:32 AM EDT
[#10]
It's a no brainer, get the geo.....
I've got a 2200 square foot house with a walk out basement, Northern Indiana, probably heat and cool 3800 square feet minus the garage. I've got good insulation and 2x6 construction. I was spending $3500 a year in propane and who knows what the electricity was for A/C and hot water costs. My furnace was getting old and it was time for a new one. I also got a wood stove and was burning wood to help offset the propane costs, but it was a pain and lots of work. I looked at outdoor wood burners, more pain and I didn't want to scrounge wood all summer. Then I looked at geothermal and went with it. Here are the numbers as I remember. A new furnace and A/C was going to $9K and I'd been in the same boat. A 5 ton geothermal was $17K and I got a 30% federal tax credit along with some state money which dropped the price down to $12Kish. It now costs $1.2K a year to heat and cool my house and I don't have to burn wood. Get the geo! I went with Waterfurnace and I'm super happy. My dealer installed his own loop, very important in my eyes. No finger pointing if there is a problem. I've had it for 8 years. I have a closed loop. The dealer said the open loops are a problem with minerals in our water. I've got the hot water heater option. That's off the top of my head... |
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Posted: 3/3/2023 6:18:54 PM EDT
[#11]
I had it in my last house. It was just shy of 6,000sq/ft. Air conditioning was stupid cheap in summer. Winter heating in Ohio wasn't expensive to run and it kept up just fine. The only thing I didn't care for was the heat never really felt warm like you get with forced air gas.
I have had baseboard hot water heat, electric base board, forced air gas and then i heated with a wood burner in different homes throughout the years. Geo Thermal was the cheapest but I prefer force air gas heatimg. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 11:35:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to work for one of the larger Geothermal dealers in Ga. It takes a lot to recoup the cost. Also parts are expensive and some are odd. We installed mainly Waterfurnace and Bosch units. Both as they age tend to have limited supported after about 20-25 years. We found some boards were tough to find and bought extras to support customers we had. Don't buy anything from Mr. Cool. Good install is very important. I would go conventional and a wood stove if it was me. Isn't there still a energy tax credit of 30% of the cost? https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN12051 There was when I installed mine and that made it cost competitive [not cost equal mind you but the other attributes were worth the additional cost after tax credit]. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 6:44:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't there still a energy tax credit of 30% of the cost? https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN12051 There was when I installed mine and that made it cost competitive [not cost equal mind you but the other attributes were worth the additional cost after tax credit]. That seems to vary based on how the government feels at any moment. The one Geo bonus seemed to be that you could warm the water going into the water heater and reduce that cost. I know from talking to home owners that had owned both most seemed to want to go conventional gas heat and normal AC in their next house. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 10:43:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That seems to vary based on how the government feels at any moment. The one Geo bonus seemed to be that you could warm the water going into the water heater and reduce that cost. I know from talking to home owners that had owned both most seemed to want to go conventional gas heat and normal AC in their next house. The credit is current law. I don't like it or agree but right now the 30% of total cost needs to be factored into the 'total cost'. Wish big brother would get out of our lives but that is not the case at this time. |
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Posted: 3/8/2023 10:52:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: We're moving up to west michigan this summer and we're actively purchasing 5 acres now. It's all open land that used to be a blueberry field back in the day. Going to turn this place into my small little farm place with a few cows and chickens. My goal for this place is to make it as energy efficient as possible. I originally defined the house for most of the living space to be in the basement from the heating and cooling aspect but the water table is too high. I've seen a lot of good things on geothermal systems and seeing if anyone here has actual experience with it. OP, I don't know if you can search the archives or not. I'm looking for you because I have seen some decent threads in the past on geothermal. I will post all I can find here, but some I can remember, I am not finding. If I were you, I would also post your question in the DIY forum, and perhaps in Team, as there are a LOT of pros who hang out there. Homestead/Farm/Garden is best forum on Arfcom. But the reason it is, is that it is not on the beaten path, and I KNOW there are some pros on Arfcom who can give you good info. It is an amazing reservoir of knowledge if you know where to ask your question. Wherever you post, keep bumping the thread for a couple of weeks. Not everyone is on the forum 24-7, but it's worth the effort to get good feedback, and this question you are asking involves a LOT of money (to me, anyway.) I'd have geothermal if I could swing it, but that ain't happening any time soon. Here are the threads i'm finding: Archives: (Unfortunately, archives have no names on them now, so you can't reach out to the member who made comments. DO be aware that some people commenting are knowledgeable and others are not, and their opinions may come from one bad experience among many good ones. But I am posting these because I think reading through stuff like this might be of value for asking questions elsewhere, and getting a sense of the "overall" consensus.) Anyone Here use Geothermal? Tell me about geothermal heat pumps When I changed my search from "Outdoors community" to "General Discussion" I got 21 threads about geothermal. I don't know if that is of interest. I can take a screenshot of that search if you cannot get to it and if you are interested (not sure how deeply you want to dive into this "geothermal on arfcom.") Holler if you want me to search again or look for something else related. There is a LOT of data, but how much is of use to YOU? I don't know. I would also suggest asking in the Michigan Hometown Forum, whether anybody has geothermal, and who they used, and what their experience has been. In my experience, the Michigan Hometown Forum is a great bunch of folks.  |
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Posted: 3/8/2023 10:58:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to work for one of the larger Geothermal dealers in Ga. It takes a lot to recoup the cost. Also parts are expensive and some are odd. We installed mainly Waterfurnace and Bosch units. Both as they age tend to have limited supported after about 20-25 years. We found some boards were tough to find and bought extras to support customers we had. Don't buy anything from Mr. Cool. Good install is very important. I would go conventional and a wood stove if it was me. In one of the threads I linked above, member Coldair was commenting and saying don't go with Waterfurnace because their support doesn't exist if you have problems. In fact they had filched on some deals and left customers in bad shape. The back and forth between Coldair and other folks was interesting and educational. That's one of the threads that has stuck in my memory among others that I can't find. That customer support might have changed in the intervening years (most of that thread was in 2017). But good information to go digging a bit more. |
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Posted: 3/8/2023 11:30:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That seems to vary based on how the government feels at any moment. The one Geo bonus seemed to be that you could warm the water going into the water heater and reduce that cost. I know from talking to home owners that had owned both most seemed to want to go conventional gas heat and normal AC in their next house. I have a geothermal system. I love it. |
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Posted: 3/8/2023 11:40:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a geothermal system. I love it. What kind? Will you talk about it a little, so we who do NOT have those systems, can learn what works? Where do you live, what is your house like, etc....
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Posted: 3/9/2023 10:52:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Don't discount orientation and passive solar heating.
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Posted: 3/9/2023 11:08:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What kind? Will you talk about it a little, so we who do NOT have those systems, can learn what works? Where do you live, what is your house like, etc.... I know you directed this to another but I've not posted my system's maker: Water Furnace just another data point |
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Posted: 3/9/2023 12:02:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know you directed this to another but I've not posted my system's maker: Water Furnace just another data point That's very important. There were evidently some serious issues with that company in the past, but I think it's always good to recognize that companies go through bad times, and often get their acts together and do better. |
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Posted: 3/9/2023 2:43:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's very important. There were evidently some serious issues with that company in the past, but I think it's always good to recognize that companies go through bad times, and often get their acts together and do better. My system is also Waterfurnace. I know some others have said in the other threads that Waterfurnace was terrible but mine has been 100% trouble free, it's 15 years old. I think improper installation may be the cause of many of the problems. I have a good friend that used to sell Waterfurnace, he still claims they're one of the best made, but their CS is terrible. Basically, as he put it, he rarely ever had a problem with any Waterfurnace units, but if he did, getting service from them was very painful. He quit installing them for that reason alone. ETA, if you don't have the space for a horizontal closed loop I suggest thinking long and hard about how badly you want geo. Anything except the horizontal closed loop is going to increase cost and potential for problems. Closed loop is the only loop type I would have and vertical closed loops are spendy (takes a massive drill bit and the right type of soil). |
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Posted: 3/9/2023 11:16:56 PM EDT
[#23]
I should at some point say this.
We have a school about four miles up the road from me. People come from all over to look at this school.. Cuz it's like....some kind of crazy installation. I knew the guy that built it. He builds major military and government installations. (I say "knew" because i haven't talked to him in a couple of years since I changed occupations.) One of the main components of this school is the geothermal. Apparently it is running like a clock, and the costs of heating/cooling that enormous middle school/high school combo is WAY low. As compared to conventional heating and cooling on a similar size installation. This is zone 6. It hits 100 degrees EVERY year--usually starting at the end of May. Then again in July and August, for about two weeks each stretch. It hits below zero EVERY year at least for a few days. Not always in a row, but a few days. That is one hell of a demand on an HVAC system, no matter the energy source. I've been interested in geothermal for a long time. But everybody tells me it's not worth it. I don't believe them. ETA: I do not know what supplementary HVAC systems are in place in this facility. There may be some. I just don't know about that. |
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Posted: 3/10/2023 10:57:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is zone 6. I believe you might be referencing USDA plant hardiness zones. All of Kentucky is climate zone 4 which is what should be considered for heating/ cooling. |
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Posted: 3/11/2023 10:31:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe you might be referencing USDA plant hardiness zones. All of Kentucky is climate zone 4 which is what should be considered for heating/ cooling. Yes. My entire life is built around the ag hardiness zones. I forget there is anything else. 
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Posted: 3/11/2023 10:44:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Make sure either you know how to maintain and service the system or there are local options
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Posted: 3/15/2023 1:15:45 PM EDT
[#27]
When we had our house built 11 years ago, we had geothermal installed. I love it in the summer. I can keep the house very cool for relatively cheap plus we have a desuperheater hooked up to the water heater. In the winter, it is not as efficient here in Northeast Ohio. I am finally ripping out our cheap fireplace insert and putting in a proper wood stove this summer so that I can maintain warmer temps in the winter. Our bills in the summer average about $200 in a 2500 sq ft house. Range is propane but everything else is electric. Winter bills are usually $350 and up to $400. I wish I would have gone with natural gas heat. When this unit dies it will be a tough choice and will depend on the numbers.
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Posted: 3/15/2023 2:57:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When we had our house built 11 years ago, we had geothermal installed. I love it in the summer. I can keep the house very cool for relatively cheap plus we have a desuperheater hooked up to the water heater. In the winter, it is not as efficient here in Northeast Ohio. I am finally ripping out our cheap fireplace insert and putting in a proper wood stove this summer so that I can maintain warmer temps in the winter. Our bills in the summer average about $200 in a 2500 sq ft house. Range is propane but everything else is electric. Winter bills are usually $350 and up to $400. I wish I would have gone with natural gas heat. When this unit dies it will be a tough choice and will depend on the numbers. The loop will still be good when that unit dies. Replacement cost on geo is significantly cheaper than the initial cost... I would still go geo when it dies. Especially if you have a source for wood secondary heat. That would be an easy decision for me. Burn wood when it's cold and when you feel like it, kick the geo on for heat when you don't feel like it. |
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Posted: 3/26/2023 10:33:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to work for one of the larger Geothermal dealers in Ga. It takes a lot to recoup the cost. Also parts are expensive and some are odd. We installed mainly Waterfurnace and Bosch units. Both as they age tend to have limited supported after about 20-25 years. We found some boards were tough to find and bought extras to support customers we had. Don't buy anything from Mr. Cool. Good install is very important. I would go conventional and a wood stove if it was me. Im in far NE GA and couldnt find anyone to do geothermal on a new construction build. Not one HVAC company was willing... It was quite frustrating. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 1:06:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im in far NE GA and couldnt find anyone to do geothermal on a new construction build. Not one HVAC company was willing... It was quite frustrating. I keep wondering why we can't do it ourselves. What is this voodoo that is so magical that ordinary folks can't do it?  Yeah I don't think it's all that. We need to figure this out. It's a trencher, and some tubing, and an HVAC unit that is set up for that, right? Somebody tell me I'm off my rocker here, but if it's not a "deep thingy" system, then it just needs to be buried to a certain depth and there you are. I mean for real. If I can install radiant floor heating, and I understand soil, how is this so magical that I cannot do it? It is some kind of fluid, circulated through the earth, so that the temperature of the earth takes care of mitigating heat? Thermodynamics is scary except it's not really. And we don't necessarily have to be able to solve differential equations to be able to install a unit that uses the mass of Earth to mitigate heat/cold. I have no idea how this actually works, but I am not an engineer, yet I can build a house that stands up and is strong. So... Somebody 'splain this to me. ETA: I miss Pavelow. I know he is doing family now, I think, but gosh....having enegineers like him around was helpful. @coldair Why can't regular people do this? |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:56:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why can't regular people do this? Regular people can do it, about the only equipment that may be challenging to get is a flush cart (for flushing all the air out of the loop. But if you've seen one and are handy it can be built. I suspect with many things, it seems daunting to think about until you've seen it done and when/where will you see it done? Additional reasons may be sourcing the unit and voiding the warranty. Most HVAC warranties are void if not installed by a pro. As a more specialized piece of equipment most supply channels catering to the DIY crowd will not carry geo units. Most pros that carry them will not sell just the unit (I even ran into this on mini-split units when trying to source them locally). Other complexities are sizing the lines and loop properly, getting the proper pumping and valving setup etc. Controls can also be a challenge. My system has a multistage compressor and it requires a special thermostat that can't be sourced through big box stores etc. One reason a geo unit is actually easier is that the refrigeration system is all self contained and should come pre charged with refrigerant. |
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Posted: 3/29/2023 9:39:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regular people can do it, about the only equipment that may be challenging to get is a flush cart (for flushing all the air out of the loop. But if you've seen one and are handy it can be built. I suspect with many things, it seems daunting to think about until you've seen it done and when/where will you see it done? Additional reasons may be sourcing the unit and voiding the warranty. Most HVAC warranties are void if not installed by a pro. As a more specialized piece of equipment most supply channels catering to the DIY crowd will not carry geo units. Most pros that carry them will not sell just the unit (I even ran into this on mini-split units when trying to source them locally). Other complexities are sizing the lines and loop properly, getting the proper pumping and valving setup etc. Controls can also be a challenge. My system has a multistage compressor and it requires a special thermostat that can't be sourced through big box stores etc. One reason a geo unit is actually easier is that the refrigeration system is all self contained and should come pre charged with refrigerant. So you did your own, right? How did you end up getting the stuff you needed? |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 4:10:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you did your own, right? How did you end up getting the stuff you needed? It was already here when we bought the place. But seeing how it is done I would not hesitate to do it if the opportunity presented itself. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 6:07:07 AM EDT
[#34]
Just do an air to air and fossil fuel backup/emer furnace instead. Air to air have come a LONG way in the past 10 years.
The cost of maintaining equipment will probably cost more then you will save in the long run. Wait times can be long for some of the parts and finding parts can be ''interesting'' down the road unless you go for a well known name brand. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 10:15:40 AM EDT
[#35]
I appreciate all the assistance on this. we've been busy with vacations and moving so i forgot about this thread for a while. I called several places in west Michigan to discuss some install options and it's pretty sad. Most places wont allow you to do the pipe work yourself. the one company said they only work with one pipe layer and he wont install pipes if there's standing water once you dig down... seems like a cheap excuse to not do it given that everywhere along west Michigan has super high water from what I've seen and heard.
One thing I found during my research is air bleeding properly and spending the extra money to use distilled water to prevent accumulation of crud in the lines. That said, unless I can find a company thats willing to work with me on the install process and allow me to do the piping myself, I think I'm SOL. But ill keep digging into options. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 2:49:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just do an air to air and fossil fuel backup/emer furnace instead. Air to air have come a LONG way in the past 10 years. The cost of maintaining equipment will probably cost more then you will save in the long run. Wait times can be long for some of the parts and finding parts can be ''interesting'' down the road unless you go for a well known name brand. This, just this. Nearly zero reason for geothermal at this point. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 4:45:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Everything that I have looked into, seems like Geo would be a pretty easy DIY when using it with a conventional HVAC system. Still trying to figure out if radiant floor heating is worth it.
Look on YouTube for a channel called "Challenged" or search for Geo DIY install. He covers a lot of the DIY aspect of it. Biggest saving was burying the pipe himself. He does go over that having a high ground water table helps as well as other types of soil types. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This, just this. Nearly zero reason for geothermal at this point. Says the guy from TX? I strongly disagree with your assertion but I'm not going to start a manhood measuring contest. Look into the details of COP, SEER etc and apply a little knowledge and you'll discover that the numbers are misleading and the means by which systems are compared is very advantageous to air-to-air systems when real life performance will be drastically different. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 7:09:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Says the guy from TX? I strongly disagree with your assertion but I'm not going to start a manhood measuring contest. Look into the details of COP, SEER etc and apply a little knowledge and you'll discover that the numbers are misleading and the means by which systems are compared is very advantageous to air-to-air systems when real life performance will be drastically different. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This, just this. Nearly zero reason for geothermal at this point. Says the guy from TX? I strongly disagree with your assertion but I'm not going to start a manhood measuring contest. Look into the details of COP, SEER etc and apply a little knowledge and you'll discover that the numbers are misleading and the means by which systems are compared is very advantageous to air-to-air systems when real life performance will be drastically different. Sure, I always enjoy learning more. We all should. In very cold climates without fossil fuel for backup, I understand avoiding ASHP’s. Otherwise, inverter compressors and VRF have come a long, long way even in the last ten years. Newer systems put out rated btu’s down to -5F or so. Mitsubishi says COP>2.0 above 5degF. But go ahead and disagree. I’d love to see the economic case in Indiana or east Michigan for that matter for modern air to air plus fossil fuel backup(where feasible) vs geothermal where geothermal wins. But I don’t live nor work there so I’ll bow out to the towers of intellect and experience here. But since this is in a tech forum: Just looked it up, for Indianapolis/Marion County 99.6% day is -1.8degF, 99% day is 6degF. That’s inside the operating envelope of modern ASHP’s, if - and this is a big if - they are selected and sized correctly. Most of eastern Michigan is in the same ballpark, checking various counties. Conventional heat pumps? Sure, below 40degF or so they struggle. |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 12:45:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just do an air to air and fossil fuel backup/emer furnace instead. Air to air have come a LONG way in the past 10 years. The cost of maintaining equipment will probably cost more then you will save in the long run. Wait times can be long for some of the parts and finding parts can be ''interesting'' down the road unless you go for a well known name brand. Explain this for dummies please? @fxntime |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 1:09:15 AM EDT
[#41]
Almost 30 years in hvac now.
I considered it when I remodeled a 130 year old farmhouse 5 years ago. I had the space for the loop, have the equipment to put in the loop myself, and have the resources and skills to install it myself. I decided against it. After figuring cost per btu, I went with a 21 seer DC inverter heat pump with a modulating 97% lp furnace. I heat 2600 sq ft. 2x4 construction with fiberglass in the walls, but newer windows. Not an energy efficient house by any standard. Last year we used 160 gallons of propane and 6600 kWh for heat. Less than $1200 total. We put a wood stove in this year so those numbers will go down. I also don’t own a flush cart and didn’t want to build one, so I couldn’t do my own maintenance. I have basic geo knowledge, but not an expert by any means, and I wanted to be able to service my own system. It is what I do for a living. Lol. My carrier infinity zoned system has needed zero service in the 5 years it’s been in service. |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 5:18:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain this for dummies please? @fxntime Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just do an air to air and fossil fuel backup/emer furnace instead. Air to air have come a LONG way in the past 10 years. The cost of maintaining equipment will probably cost more then you will save in the long run. Wait times can be long for some of the parts and finding parts can be ''interesting'' down the road unless you go for a well known name brand. Explain this for dummies please? @fxntime Air to air [heat pump] pretty much an A/C unit with a reversing valve and electronics so you are extracting heat from either outside or inside depending on season. emer/back up heat [nat gas or propane] standard furnace, use both as the air handler for the heat pump, when heat pump is in defrost mode and when the heat pump can't keep up. |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 5:51:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just do an air to air and fossil fuel backup/emer furnace instead. Air to air have come a LONG way in the past 10 years. The cost of maintaining equipment will probably cost more then you will save in the long run. Wait times can be long for some of the parts and finding parts can be ''interesting'' down the road unless you go for a well known name brand. This has been my experience as well. The customers I do service calls for hate them. Expensive repairs and waiting on parts. Supposedly there is air to air heat pumps coming that are surpassing ground source units. Supposedly. |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:20:46 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Mitsubishi says COP>2.0 above 5degF. Not to drudge up an old topic but I forgot to come back and check this thread and a thread in general reminded me about it. Just for point of reference, GSHP have COP between 3 and 8 in heating. 3 is considered very poor performance, 8 is what you could expect if you're in an area with very high ground temperatures. Cooling COPs for GSHPs are significantly higher. The discussion that made me think to come back to this? A thread discussing cleaning of the condenser fins on ASHPs. Currently folks are disagreeing about what cleaners are ok to use and whether to add a screen on the outside or not. The only consensus is that it needs to be done regularly. That's definitely something you don't have to worry about with GSHPs. I've never had to do anything to my GSHP, it's 15 years old, was properly installed, and gets a checkup and loop flush every 3-4 years. |
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